[Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'm a person that doesn't believe in big things unless they are shown, therefore i don't believe in the existence of God.

Do you believe in the sun? How about galaxies? Large numbers?

[Lord Orwell]

Do you believe in the sun? How about galaxies? Large numbers?

come on. He didn't say he didn't believe in any big things. I'm sure he's seen the sun and at least part of the galaxy.

personally, i don't believe in some numbers. (-i)

[Justa Lol]

Do you believe in the sun? How about galaxies? Large numbers?

true orwell, i didn't believe in -i until i saw it xD i've seen the sun from a far distance, we call it planet earth, if i'm correct, and yes i believe in galaxies because we know we live in one... we have no clue if there actually is a god.

[MassSpec]

agnostics... You can't have it every way. Either one religion is right or none of them are or all of them are.
1. If one is right, you are wrong by not choosing that one.
2. If none of them are, you are wrong because you haven't realized they are all wrong.
3. If all of them are, you are wrong my not deciding on one of them.

In any case, you haven't made a decision and that makes you wishy-washy.

I can't decide if you're serious or just like to argue for the sake of it....

"1. If one is right, you are wrong by not choosing that one."

Nope. If in your not pursuaded by any given religion, it is not reasonable to adopt it's beliefs. You may choose to do so on Faith. You cant be morally right or wrong if you are objective. You may come to the wrong conclusion, but nobody can question your honesty.

"2. If none of them are, you are wrong because you haven't realized they are all wrong."

Same as "1"

"3. If all of them are, you are wrong my not deciding on one of them."

Same as "1". But in addition.... How can all of them be right? Even if you limit yourself to all christian-based religions, there are glaring differences between them. For example, the Holy Trinity concept.

If you are a parent of 2 or more children, and I asked you which one you loved the most, would it be wishy-washy to conclude you loved them all the same? If one of them spilled coffee on your keyboard and none of them admitted doing it, would it be possible you couldn't tell who the culprit was and not punish any of them. Or would you force yourself to pick one of them on the slightest evidence and punish the one you chose?

Please think about your comments before posting them. You might be right about your religious beliefs, but your arguments are so poorly thought out, you may pursuade other posters to become atheist or agnostic.

[Justa Lol]

I can't decide if you're serious or just like to argue for the sake of it....

"1. If one is right, you are wrong by not choosing that one."

Nope. If in your not pursuaded by any given religion, it is not reasonable to adopt it's beliefs. You may choose to do so on Faith. You cant be morally right or wrong if you are objective. You may come to the wrong conclusion, but nobody can question your honesty.

"2. If none of them are, you are wrong because you haven't realized they are all wrong."

Same as "1"

"3. If all of them are, you are wrong my not deciding on one of them."

Same as "1". But in addition.... How can all of them be right? Even if you limit yourself to all christian-based religions, there are glaring differences between them. For example, the Holy Trinity concept.

If you are a parent of 2 or more children, and I asked you which one you loved the most, would it be wishy-washy to conclude you loved them all the same? If one of them spilled coffee on your keyboard and none of them admitted doing it, would it be possible you couldn't tell who the culprit was and not punish any of them. Or would you force yourself to pick one of them on the slightest evidence and punish the one you chose?

Please think about your comments before posting them. You might be right about your religious beliefs, but your arguments are so poorly thought out, you may pursuade other posters to become atheist or agnostic.

i believe his post is well thought out because people don't know if they believe in the right one, or if there is such thing as a god.

[MassSpec]

i believe his post is well thought out because people don't know if they believe in the right one, or if there is such thing as a god.

So you actually think its possible for all religions to be right? How can that be? How can you reconsile Catholicism and Methodism. The first believes in the Holy Trinity. The latter doesn't. How can they both be right? And this is only one example. They are inconsistent in their views of divorce, womens roll in church and life, homosexuality.... It goes on and on. How can they all be right?

And this example is only among Christian faiths. Throw in all other non-Christian religions and the differences are abismal. Or are we prepared to say that if there is a God, it must be the Christian God?

Why would you even consider it possible that they all have it right?

[Shaggy Hiker]

personally, i don't believe in some numbers. (-i)

How can you not believe in that? That is just unreal!

@MassSpec: I rarely add a serious post in this thread, and am usually playing on words, but I'll make an exception and just make a reference to a common metaphor: Maybe we are all feeling different parts of the same elephant.

[MassSpec]

How can you not believe in that? That is just unreal!

@MassSpec: I rarely add a serious post in this thread, and am usually playing on words, but I'll make an exception and just make a reference to a common metaphor: Maybe we are all feeling different parts of the same elephant.

Ever seen a gameshow where people have to guess what object is in their hands without looking at it. Funny how they get it wrong so often.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Nope, never seen that. Does present an interesting puzzle, though, so I see why it could be turned into a game.

[Lord Orwell]

How can you not believe in that? That is just unreal!

@MassSpec: I rarely add a serious post in this thread, and am usually playing on words, but I'll make an exception and just make a reference to a common metaphor: Maybe we are all feeling different parts of the same elephant.

i hope i'm feeling the trunk.

[Shaggy Hiker]

i hope i'm feeling the trunk.

[homer13j]

Since this thread has already jumped the shark...

[Lord Orwell]

Since this thread has already jumped the shark...

didn't fonzee do that in a happy day's episode?

... hahahah i just wikied it and it says that the happy days episode is the origin of this phrase. LOL!

[honeybee]

It does seem that a lot of VBF members does not believe in God's existence and I am curious why.

A wild guess: They can't find the documentation for the same, and so can't decide if it's an intended feature or a bug. Best to ignore, right?


On a more serious note, does it matter if you believe in God or not?

.

[Lord Orwell]

I can't decide if you're serious or just like to argue for the sake of it....

I have no opinion on parts of this, but i do like to play devil's advocate sometimes. (if he exists)

"1. If one is right, you are wrong by not choosing that one."

Nope. If in your not pursuaded by any given religion, it is not reasonable to adopt it's beliefs. You may choose to do so on Faith. You cant be morally right or wrong if you are objective. You may come to the wrong conclusion, but nobody can question your honesty.

according to all of the religions we've been discussing, moral doesn't save you. The correct belief does. Christianity doesn't care HOW moral you are.

"2. If none of them are, you are wrong because you haven't realized they are all wrong."

Same as "1"

"3. If all of them are, you are wrong my not deciding on one of them."

Same as "1". But in addition.... How can all of them be right? Even if you limit yourself to all christian-based religions, there are glaring differences between them. For example, the Holy Trinity concept.

It's a logic break-down and a standard one at that. I was merely showing the three choices you have and how they relate. And they can be all right if buddha is the correct answer or paganism, etc. They all allow the belief in multiple gods. As for christian beliefs being different, there's always the possibility that someone lied to you and it's NOT the only way to heaven, and they would do this to drum up more believers or convert them. If this is the case (and it could be) then any religion could go to heaven (or equivalent: Nirvana, Valhalla) no matter what the church is saying. As a side note: There's a movie coming out implying that the Greek gods were real. Can you suspend belief in your God long enough to watch it?

Please think about your comments before posting them. you may pursuade other posters to become atheist or agnostic.

that was exactly what i am trying to do. Don't forget that in the christian based religioins, it clearly states in their bibles that no matter how moral you are, you STILL aren't going to heaven unless you accept Jesus. This means all other religions are wrong, according to them. "many are the roads to hell and narrow is the road to me". etc.

If you are a parent of 2 or more children, and I asked you which one you loved the most, would it be wishy-washy to conclude you loved them all the same? If one of them spilled coffee on your keyboard and none of them admitted doing it, would it be possible you couldn't tell who the culprit was and not punish any of them. Or would you force yourself to pick one of them on the slightest evidence and punish the one you chose?

If one of my kids ruined my keyboard, i would punish them all. This way not admitting guilt didn't save you from punishment so there is no positive reinforcement to lie next time, and your sibling is going to make it even worse. I would only have to do this once. Next time, they would admit.

[MassSpec]

To Lord Orwell (at this point quoting gets ridiculous)

In your last response, a breakdown of my responses, you used a fundamentalist argument (not necessarily saying that you are). That its...,
since each religion assumes as fact that their beliefs are true and correct, anyone who does not adopt their religion or tries to discredit any part of their dogma is wrong. It doesn't matter if you arrived at such conclusion via careful, impartial and reasonable thought. You are factually wrong, and some might say morally corrupt.

Under such circumstances, I could start a religion of my own. I'll make "Spongebob Squarepants" my god almighty and stipulate that any form of human thought that concludes that Spongebob is not THE GOD, is wrong.

See what I mean? Religions are by definition, self-contained and self-justifying. It they were'nt, they would collapse in short time. This is because they have so little evidence to go on, even if they have it right.

This is why discussing the merits of any religion has to occur from the outside. Not within the confines of any belief. Which is why I can't care about whether or not religion thinks I'm wrong or immoral. If I did care, my conclusions would be prejudiced and partial.

I know religious people with whom I can have a good healthy discussion about this subject. But if I come across one who just cant step out of the box, and starts throwing arguments based on what "the bible says" or some personal religious experience, like feeling god or whatever, I'm out the door. I wouldn't even bother. They are just too entrenched to see things from outside the box.

Regarding the culprit who ruined the keyboard..... I used the story to draw up an analogy as to why it is difficult to chose the right course of action. Whether it's punishing the keyboard bandit, or choosing the "right" religion. Your approach to parenting is analogous to the agnostic one..... no conclusive evidence, so they are all guilty.

[System_Error]

I know religious people with whom I can have a good healthy discussion about this subject. But if I come across one who just cant step out of the box, and starts throwing arguments based on what "the bible says" or some personal religious experience, like feeling god or whatever, I'm out the door. I wouldn't even bother. They are just too entrenched to see things from outside the box.

So you expect a religious person to step outside of this box you are talking about, but you aren't ok with changing your perspective? Maybe you are entrenched in your own arrogance?

[MassSpec]

So you expect a religious person to step outside of this box you are talking about, but you aren't ok with changing your perspective? Maybe you are entrenched in your own arrogance?

How is that arrogant? I wouldn't expect a religious person to abandon their beliefs. But we can all be devil's advocate in such discussions. And by the way..... what makes you think I'm not stepping out-of-the-box? If you do, I'm flattered. Because it means I'm doing a very good job at it. Thank you.

[System_Error]

How is that arrogant? I wouldn't expect a religious person to abandon their beliefs. But we can all be devil's advocate in such discussions. And by the way..... what makes you think I'm not stepping out-of-the-box? If you do, I'm flattered. Because it means I'm doing a very good job at it. Thank you.

You totally missed it dude...

[MassSpec]

You totally missed it dude...

Enlighten me...

[Lord Orwell]

if you think all religions are that closed-minded, you need to study them more. Check out wicca, druidism, any of the native american ones...

[dclamp]

"Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks" -Psalms 137:9

Its a quote i live by

[Lord Orwell]

"Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks" -Psalms 137:9

Its a quote i live by

yep its full of stuff like that. Yet we give these things to children to read?

Here's my favourite:
"the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him"

although i also like the part where lot offered his daughters to a rape gang.

Here's some more choice quotes, designed to get you thinking about exactly how you are supposed to worship.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven.
Matthew 6:1 Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith . . . not by works.
James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? . . . Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

[MartinLiss]

I can understand people who are religious and believe in nice things like good people going to heaven, but it's those who believe things like the bible being the literal word of God who I don't understand. What do they think of biblical quotes like these?

[Lord Orwell]

I can understand people who are religious and believe in nice things like good people going to heaven, but it's those who believe things like the bible being the literal word of God who I don't understand. What do they think of biblical quotes like these?

lol that's the page i cut and pasted some of mine from

[Nightwalker83]

Well, the thing that I find strange is that the church seems to change its mind on what god is a lot. Example: How can one man say whether there is one god or many gods?As I am sure many of you are aware in ancient times people believed in a number of gods then all of sudden its like "Hey lets make it so there is only one god"! Also, religion will always win the argument over science about what created the earth/universe because it has no solid proof to support or deny its claims.

[arunb]

does God believe in human beings ??

[Lord Orwell]

Well, the thing that I find strange is that the church seems to change its mind on what god is a lot. Example: How can one man say whether there is one god or many gods?As I am sure many of you are aware in ancient times people believed in a number of gods then all of sudden its like "Hey lets make it so there is only one god"! Also, religion will always win the argument over science about what created the earth/universe because it has no solid proof to support or deny its claims.

even the old testament mentions them. It says their god hates them but that they are real. Baal comes to mind but there's another one too.

[MassSpec]

if you think all religions are that closed-minded, you need to study them more. Check out wicca, druidism, any of the native american ones...

It's a matter of degree... Some religions are not THAT "closed-minded". But still "closed-minded". A religion, or any belief-based system that tolerates too much "open-minded" behavior, would eventually lose it's members.

[Lord Orwell]

It's a matter of degree... Some religions are not THAT "closed-minded". But still "closed-minded". A religion, or any belief-based system that tolerates too much "open-minded" behavior, would eventually lose it's members.

this only proves it. The vast majority of people on the planet believe in the major closed-minded ones. The open-minded followers of zeus left years ago...

[MassSpec]

this only proves it. The vast majority of people on the planet believe in the major closed-minded ones. The open-minded followers of zeus left years ago...

I'm not sure what you think it proves. Mythology is a religion. It includes gods, with special powers, and it expects follower's to please their gods or face consequences. How is that "open minded"? If greek mythology was replaced by roman mythology, and roman mythology was replaced by Christianity, what does that prove?

By the way, there is no safety in numbers. If the "vast majority of people on the planet believe in the major closed-minded ones" gives you comfort, good for you. I hope you're not suggesting the prevalence of religions justifies their beliefs or proves anything. Does the prevalence of racism, genocide, and wars, over our entire history justify anything? The 20th century was the most violent in our entire history. More people participated and died in wars fought in the name of political ideology, nationalism or self-proclaimed superiority, than ever before. Is that a vindication of their political, nationalistic, or racial beliefs?

[Shaggy Hiker]

I can't decide if you two represent two different sides of the same position, or are each involved with arguing a different aspects of the same side.

[MassSpec]

I can't decide if you two represent two different sides of the same position, or are each involved with arguing a different aspects of the same side.

both

[Shaggy Hiker]

That explains it.

[Lord Orwell]

i agree*

and no i don't think it proves anything. Because you know that by simple math it can be shown that approximately half the people on the world are stupider than the average.

[honeybee]

yep its full of stuff like that. Yet we give these things to children to read?

Here's my favourite:
"the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him"

although i also like the part where lot offered his daughters to a rape gang.

Here's some more choice quotes, designed to get you thinking about exactly how you are supposed to worship.
Matthew 5:16 Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven.
Matthew 6:1 Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith . . . not by works.
James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? . . . Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Does the Bible really have this in its text?? It's surprising to know, I must say. And btw I am not a Christian so I don't know much about the Bible.

About the other quotes regarding the conflict of having faith, doing good deeds and whether or not in front of others, that too is surprising. Without any offence meant, maybe the Bible was not edited/proof-read properly? On a serious note, what is the possibility these conflicting texts were added by different people at different times? Or is there something else we may be missing?

.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

maybe the Bible was not edited/proof-read properly

The bible wasn't just written by 1 guy, for instance the New testament has the 4 gospels which everyone knows about written by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John and a bunch of other books by various different authors.

But as for the Bible not being edited properly just in the Gospels which are 4 different account of the Life of Jesus they disagree or contradict each other, and yes they were written at different times, the gospel of Matthew is the earliest and the Gospel of John which was the latest was supposedly written some 50 to 60 years later.

In fact the gospel of John in places is wildly different and puts certain thing in a completely different order then in the other 3 synoptic gospels.

[Lord Orwell]

Does the Bible really have this in its text?? It's surprising to know, I must say. And btw I am not a Christian so I don't know much about the Bible.

About the other quotes regarding the conflict of having faith, doing good deeds and whether or not in front of others, that too is surprising. Without any offence meant, maybe the Bible was not edited/proof-read properly? On a serious note, what is the possibility these conflicting texts were added by different people at different times? Or is there something else we may be missing?

.

it's passages like this that cause different sects to exist. They all have to pick and choose which to follow.

[Spoo]

By the way, there is no safety in numbers. If the "vast majority of people on the planet believe in the major closed-minded ones" gives you comfort, good for you. I hope you're not suggesting the prevalence of religions justifies their beliefs or proves anything. Does the prevalence of racism, genocide, and wars, over our entire history justify anything? The 20th century was the most violent in our entire history. More people participated and died in wars fought in the name of political ideology, nationalism or self-proclaimed superiority, than ever before. Is that a vindication of their political, nationalistic, or racial beliefs?

And on a less dramatic note, at one time, the vast majority of people
believed the sun rotated around the earth.

[Lord Orwell]

And on a less dramatic note, at one time, the vast majority of people
believed the sun rotated around the earth.

according to einstein, that depends on your point of view. It's all relative in space. This thread is giving me a headache. (unsubscribing to keep sanity)