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Thread: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

  1. #601
    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by CVMichael View Post
    We have many lives. When a baby dies, it is just like when you open your eyes in the morning and then you close them again to go back to sleep. He/she will wake up again.

    When he dies, it was not for his lesson, it was for your lesson. He sacrificed one of his lives for you to learn.
    That's an interesting answer, and not where I thought you were going with the earlier post. I thought you were coming from the Judeo-Christian viewpoint, rather than reincarnation.

    If there is anything beyond death other than Format C:, I would say that reincarnation is the most likely, to me. Heaven and hell are right out.
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    Fanatic Member EntityX's Avatar
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    I believe in hell in a way. That is I believe in hell or hells that people create for themselves but I don't believe in a hell or hells that are eternal. There isn't ever a time that God says, "ok, that's it. You've had your chance. Now you have to suffer for eternity and you don't ever get a chance to get back to Me and regain paradise." That would be an infinite punishment for a finite offense.

    I believe we have to go through many lives to work out all of our imperfections. If you leave the body without any desires of this earth then you can graduate to a more blissful world. You can then continue to evolve to higher and higher states of consciousness until you gain the highest freedom and the most perfect states of joy. Here's a story that Yogananda tells that sort of punches a hole in the theory that there is an eternal hell but of course some people will still hold to the idea if they want to. You can't ever force anyone to accept something that they don't want to accept.

    Cure Of A Wicked Son

    Once when I was in Seattle, Washington, I was sitting near the ocean, much inspired by the thought of its vastness, which reminded me of the vastness of God. After a time I felt hungry and went to a nearby farmhouse to buy some cherries. Here I met an old man with rosy cheeks. He looked happy and showed me great hospitality.

    But a divine impulse came over me and I said, "Dear man, though you look very happy, there is a hidden suffering in your life." He inquired, "Are you a fortuneteller?" I answered, "No; but I tell people how to mend their fortunes."

    The conversation shifted to spiritual matters. To my surprise, the old man suddendly cried, "We are all sinners! The Lord will burn our souls in hell-fire and brimstone." I appealed to his common sense. "How," I asked him, "could a man who at death loses his body and becomes an invisible soul, be burned in a fire created by material brimstone?"

    The man became angry. He kept insisting, "It's true. We shall all burn in hell-fire." Then I inquired cajolingly, "Did you receive a radiogram from God about this matter, that you are so certain He will burn us in hell-fire?"

    "Blasphemy!" the old man cried. He became more excited than ever.

    I then spoke soothingly, and quietly changed the subject. Presently I asked him, "What about your unhappiness over that wicked son of your?" My host was astonished at my words and admitted that he experienced a constant sorrow over a wastrel son whom he seemed to be helpless to correct.

    "I have a remedy for your misery," I said. The old man's eyes gleamed with hope, and he smiled.

    "If you can do anything for me--anything," he said, "I shall be grateful to you for the rest of my life."

    With a mysterious air, as if about to reveal a precious secret, I asked him in a low voice, "Have you a stove with a large oven?" With my hands I described the dimensions I wanted.

    He replied, wonderingly, "Why, yes."

    "Good," I said. "I shall ask you to heat it red-hot. Now, have you two friends whom you can trust never to betray your secrets to anyone, no matter what you do?"

    "Why, yes, but--"

    "Good!" I interrupted him. "You'll need their help. Now, have you several yards of strong rope?"

    "Yes, I have," the old farmer replied, with mounting suspicion. "But why am I going to need that?"

    "Please be calm, dear friend. Didn't I promise you I would give you a remedy for your troubles?" Hopefully the man dismissed his misgivings and listened to what more I had to say. I then asked him casually, "Your son is quite a heavy sleeper, isn't he?"

    "Yes," came the sorrowful reply. "He comes home so full of liquor."

    "Excellent!" I cried, in a tone of exultation. "Now then, tonight I want you to call your two friends over. Heat your oven as hot as possible. Keep your friends quiet until your son is sound asleep. Then slip quickly into his room, bind him securely, carry him downstairs and shove him into the oven!"

    "Fiend! Murderer!" the old man shouted, shaking his fist at me. "Is that your remedy?"

    "Isn't that what your son deserves?" I asked. "Just think, you will never be troubled by him again."

    "This is outrageous!" cried the man. "Whoever heard of a father burning his own son? I wouldn't do such a terrible thing even if my son were ten times as wicked as he is!"

    "Of course you wouldn't!" I replied sternly. The old man looked at me in surprise. "Now," I continued, "stop and think what I have been trying to tell you. You, who are human and far less perfect than God, cannot bear to see your own son destroyed, no matter how evil he may be. Where did you acquire this instinct of love, if not from your Heavenly Father? Even a human father could not stand the cruel thought of punishing his own son by roasting him alive. How, then, can you think of your ever-loving Heavenly Father as one who burns His own children in eternal hell-fire and brimstone? God's love is much greater than yours. Your love is only a reflection of His infinite love."

    The old man's eyes filled with tears of repentance. With a new tenderness, he looked at me gratefully and said, "I now realize that our Heavenly Father is a God of love. He would not punish us for our ignorance. Surely it is only we who punish ourselves."

    Last edited by EntityX; Apr 3rd, 2011 at 11:58 PM.
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    Frenzied Member tr333's Avatar
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    What's the difference between Dianetics and the Bible or any other religious text? I'm guessing only a few thousand years.

    For the record, Einstein was a Humanist. There's quite a large list of notable people listed as Humanists on that page. If the world adopted the Amsterdam Declaration, it would become a much nicer place to live in.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    I thought you were coming from the Judeo-Christian viewpoint, rather than reincarnation.
    I think I was born Orthodox or Christian.... I always forget. But religion was not enforced in my family, and were very open minded about those things. For a while I was not religious, and I told people that I was Atheist, even though deep down I always believed in God. I just did not know how to explain people what I felt.
    But through my life's experiences I changed. A few things had happened to me that had to be something beyond coincidence, and for a long time I thought that someone (some spirit) was trying to teach me things through my dreams. I had an OOBE (out-of-body experience), and also something that I could only call a miracle had happened to me.

    I short... all the events and experiences I had until now made me a believer.

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Evolution can simply be God working on life. A project that takes a few thousand years or even a few million is really nothing compared to eternity.
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    C# Aficionado Lord_Rat's Avatar
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    CVMichael - I've heard your basic argument many times. But my basic counterpoint (sorry if it's not paragraphs of retort) is that if there were indeed a god, things like "children getting taken away" wouldn't exist. Everything around us is too imperfect for me to believe they were created by a perfect being. If they were, they would be perfect.

    And that even goes for the supposed "free will" retort. If *we* were created by a perfect being, our free will would be perfect. And it's not.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by MarMan View Post
    Evolution can simply be God working on life. A project that takes a few thousand years or even a few million is really nothing compared to eternity.
    Sure, but it isn't necessary. When you write a GA and it evolves a solution for a problem, is that God in your program, or just probability over multiple iterations? That GA will closely mimic the way genes work, though you are free to alter many of the specific mechanisms. The principle remains close enough that there is no reason to reach for a divine answer. All the pieces are there. You can see how they interact. They will evolve in some direction without any intervention.

    Of course, there could BE some intervention. Who dies, who lives, and which two cells merge to form the next being, are all probabilistic events where some external hand could influence the outcome, but there would be an outcome with or without that external hand.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    Sure, but it isn't necessary. When you write a GA and it evolves a solution for a problem, is that God in your program, or just probability over multiple iterations? That GA will closely mimic the way genes work, though you are free to alter many of the specific mechanisms. The principle remains close enough that there is no reason to reach for a divine answer. All the pieces are there. You can see how they interact. They will evolve in some direction without any intervention.

    Of course, there could BE some intervention. Who dies, who lives, and which two cells merge to form the next being, are all probabilistic events where some external hand could influence the outcome, but there would be an outcome with or without that external hand.
    Well said. So well that I cannot comment on it. But I can comment on something else...

    God is said to be based on faith, and no proof. This was before people had proven that even a molecule exists, let alone an atom or smaller.

    The uncertainty principal illustrates how difficult it is to get half the information out of a particle because it is so small. Go even smaller, and you may have to measure the components that make up quarks or electrons indirectly, which appears almost as a merger of religion and science. That could also be why no large advances have been made. All the scientists are afraid to go forward without proof, where it can come to a point where that is impossible.

    That last paragraph can be attacked from many angles.
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    Super Moderator Shaggy Hiker's Avatar
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by MarMan View Post
    That last paragraph can be attacked from many angles.
    Maybe so, but you can, at least, take comfort in the fact that over half of all angles are obtuse.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    That's an interesting answer, and not where I thought you were going with the earlier post. I thought you were coming from the Judeo-Christian viewpoint, rather than reincarnation.

    If there is anything beyond death other than Format C:, I would say that reincarnation is the most likely, to me. Heaven and hell are right out.
    i'm going to have to agree with this. Can you find heaven on a map? Do you have any evidence hell exists? It's not even in the old testament, and the one mention of satan actually translates to "one against god" not the devil. (in Job). I look around and i see life everywhere and no one can explain consciousness. It's obvious to anyone who's owned one that animals have feelings and dreams, so how are we different than them? I think this lends credence to reincarnation.

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Orwell View Post
    I think this lends credence to reincarnation.
    @Lord Orwel; While I can neither agree nor disagree with you, and I can understand your lack of faith of heaven or hell due to lack of evidence, it completely puzzles me how you can believe in reincarnation without a single speck of evidence.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    One issue I have with reincarnation is that the population is exploding. However, at about the same time we began wiping out other species. I believe that the Hindu form of reincarnation asserts that we can move up or down, and that human is not the top of the line. Perhaps the explosion of one species and the decline in others shows that our test scores are improving. Maybe it's all a bubble. Humans are the hot new incarnation that every soul who is anybody wants to be.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    What if there's a mirror-Earth where the population is declining in massive numbers and we share the same repop pool?? !!!
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    On the note of reincarnation which I already stated I believe in, consider that there are countless stars out there and that there are other planetary systems around stars has already been observed. So souls that are incarnating in human bodies don't necessarily have to keep incarnating on earth. There are other planets on which they could incarnate in some humanoid body.

    Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
    That's an interesting answer, and not where I thought you were going with the earlier post. I thought you were coming from the Judeo-Christian viewpoint, rather than reincarnation.
    This is from a footnote in Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda.

    The early Christian church accepted the doctrine of reincarnation which was expounded by the Gnostics and by numerous church fathers, including Clement of Alexandria, the celebrated Origen (both 3rd centruy) and St. Jerome (5th centruy). The doctrine was first declared a heresy in A.D. 553 by the Second Council of Constantinople. At that time many Christians thought the doctrine of reincarnation afforded man too ample a stage of time and space to encourage him to strive for immediate salvation. But truths suppressed lead disconcertingly to a host of errors. The millions have not utilized their "one lifetime" to seek God, but to enjoy this world - so uniquely won, and so shortly to be forever lost!
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker View Post
    One issue I have with reincarnation is that the population is exploding. However, at about the same time we began wiping out other species. I believe that the Hindu form of reincarnation asserts that we can move up or down, and that human is not the top of the line. Perhaps the explosion of one species and the decline in others shows that our test scores are improving. Maybe it's all a bubble. Humans are the hot new incarnation that every soul who is anybody wants to be.
    that's how i've seen it. I suppose a side effect is if we kill off everything else we would have to come back as human. However i would guess dust-mites etc count as potential lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarMan View Post
    @Lord Orwel; While I can neither agree nor disagree with you, and I can understand your lack of faith of heaven or hell due to lack of evidence, it completely puzzles me how you can believe in reincarnation without a single speck of evidence.
    who said i believe in it? I said there is evidence for it using logic. There however is no evidence for heaven or hell in any form (valhalla, whatever).

    Quote Originally Posted by EntityX View Post
    On the note of reincarnation which I already stated I believe in, consider that there are countless stars out there and that there are other planetary systems around stars has already been observed. So souls that are incarnating in human bodies don't necessarily have to keep incarnating on earth. There are other planets on which they could incarnate in some humanoid body.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Orwell View Post
    Do you have any evidence hell exists? It's not even in the old testament...
    What version did you read? Have you tried the King James Version?
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    MS SQL Powerposter szlamany's Avatar
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    The prior pope described hell really well - it's not a place - it's a state (programmers should get this really well!).

    At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that "hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself... Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".
    Since it was his job to think about issues like this for the rest of us - and since he seemed to be the big man on campus - I use this definition myself now.

    But - sorry to bring religion into a conversation about spirituality.

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Orwell View Post
    who said i believe in it? I said there is evidence for it using logic. There however is no evidence for heaven or hell in any form (valhalla, whatever).
    Could you share some of this "evidence for it using logic"?
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    This thread is up to the number 18 spot now for threads that have the most replies in Chit Chat. Lord Orwell, Shaggy, myself and dee-u are still near the top of the Who Posted list for this thread.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by dee-u View Post
    What version did you read? Have you tried the King James Version?
    it's almost impossible to find a version that isn't based on the king james version, otherwise known as the shake-spear version. I challenge you right now to find a mention of the devil in it.

    rumor: devil gave fruit to eve
    fact: serpent gave fruit to eve

    rumor: devil challenged god about Job (ridiculous in any case)
    fact: satan challenged god, and satan means "one who is against god" and at the time of the bible's writing did not refer to any devil.

    rumor: god is caring
    fact: in the old testament, it states in many places it's ok to murder and rape if your victims don't follow god, and it's especially ok if they follow baal.

    probably the most annoying old-testament story is the moses one. God sent them to egypt on purpose to be enslaved just so moses could arise. but then again there's the whole abel-cain one where he's worried the people already living outside of eden will kill him if he's marked. No one seems to pay attention to that, or the fact genesis claims titans interbred with humans, or that he's tested parents by telling them to kill their children, actually sent plagues to kill every first born (and it's well-known children are innocents), etc. No i take it back, the 7 plagues of egypt is the most annoying one. That story states that god hardened the pharoah's heart so he wouldn't give in. It also mentions that the pharoah's sorcerers posessed magic similar to moses, but not as powerful.

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    @Lord Orwell; you had some interesting points, however, I don't give this one too much merit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Orwell View Post
    rumor: devil challenged god about Job (ridiculous in any case)
    fact: satan challenged god, and satan means "one who is against god" and at the time of the bible's writing did not refer to any devil.
    A mistake I see a lot of people make is to take the Bible literally. That is an impossible task. I will give the three main reasons.

    1. The Bible was translated, and the translation had problems.
    2. The Bible has a large portion of it that is meant to instruct, not follow verbatim.
    3. The Bible refers to a time when quite a lot of things had different meanings.


    For example, #1. There are Hebrew words that have different meanings. It is not always possible to figure it out by the context. Sometimes they guessed.
    For example #2. If you take the words literally in some cases, you miss the point completely. It is not about the words, it is about the meaning, which some gets lost in the translation.
    #3 should speak for itself.

    So let's see, the devil is against God. Satan is against God. Maybe in an encyclopedia I could get annoyed about those two words being mixed up. But in a very old book intended to illustrate a point that is not focused on definitions but actions.
    Nah, I don't buy that one.

    And I've tried all day and have not come up with a single shread of logic that points to reincarnation.
    I have found logic that provokes a false belief of reincarnation based of people's fear of dying and the inability to face/comprehend it.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Isn't reincarnation woven deeply in karmic debt - that you keep coming back until you get it right?

    With that said when the cycle ends you have reached a good point. Coming back is the "oops".

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Isn't reincarnation woven deeply in karmic debt - that you keep coming back until you get it right?

    With that said when the cycle ends you have reached a good point. Coming back is the "oops".
    That would mean that life IS hell!!!
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by MarMan View Post
    That would mean that life IS hell!!!
    Well said!

    I kind of like the buddhist view

    As long as there is delusion, greed, and aversion, and as long as passions are not extinguished, we generate karma. Because we eventually accumulate unmaterialised karma, there is a next lifetime in which the accumulated karma will take form. Only when all accumulated karma is realised and the generation of new karma is calmed, one can enter the stream that leads to Nirvana. This process continues until Nirvana is reached, which signifies the cessation of rebirth and, hence, the end of suffering.
    Basically same as the popes view from 7 posts back - hell is where heaven is not.

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by szlamany View Post
    Basically same as the popes view from 7 posts back - hell is where heaven is not.
    If hell is the absence of heaven, then I guess we are in hell.

    But I don't think of it that way. I think hell is what you make of it. If you are in a place that others consider it as hell, but you enjoy it there, then how can that be hell to you ?

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Back a few years ago I wrote a long letter that I sent to certain people. Here are some excerpts from it. I wouldn't say it proves reincarnation but it gives you something to think about concerning reincarnation. I chopped out some stuff to meet the character limit for a post.

    I saw a story on Primetime on TV which aired on ABC on June 30 2005 about a little boy who was remembering experiences from his life as a WW II Navy pilot. He hadn’t had any exposure to any history books or information about this but he was telling his parents about many details of his experience. He knew the name of the aircraft carrier he served on and the name of another pilot who served on the aircraft carrier and his own name as a pilot. He said his own name was James 3 and said Jack Larson was his friend and also a pilot. When his father asked him where his plane took off the boy said from a boat. He didn’t call it an aircraft carrier. His father asked him if he knew the name and he said the Natoma. He gave details of his experience when he was shot down. When the boy was asked who shot his plane he said the Japanese. He knew details about the type of airplane he flew which he said was the Corsair. His parents hadn’t been originally open to the idea of reincarnation but someone suggested to them that maybe he was remembering a past life. His father started doing research and found out that there was an aircraft carrier named the Natoma. Its full name was the Natoma Bay. It served in the Pacific and its pilots flew missions against the Japanese. There was a Jack Larson who served on the Natoma Bay. He knew and flew with James M Houston Jr and is still alive and lives near Dallas, Texas. When the squadron from the Natoma Bay flew against Iwo Jima there was only one pilot that was killed from that squadron and his name was James M Houston Jr. Ralph Clarbour was a pilot who witnessed the plane that was being flown by James M Houston Jr get shot down. When he gave details of how James M Houston Jr.’s plane was shot down they agreed perfectly with what the boy said. The boy had said his plane had taken a direct hit up front where the engine is and so did Ralph Clarbour. Basically everything the boy said checked out and his parents became believers in reincarnation though at first they were resistant to the idea. There are many other such incidents like this of people remembering portions of a past life that they had but Yogananda explains why God usually obscures our memory of past lives.

    In the book Man’s Eternal Quest, Paramahansa Yogananda tells us about the experience of a young girl in India in the chapter, Reincarnation: The Soul’s Journey to Perfection. I quote from it here.

    ‘The following authentic case of remembrance of a past-life experience became world famous. A little girl, born in a small village in India, began inexplicably to pine away for a village in another part of India. Her condition became so serious that a doctor advised that she be taken to the distant village. This was done, and to the amazement of her companions, from the moment she entered the outskirts of the village she began to describe in detail everything in it. She knew people by their names (although she had never before been to this village), and went directly to a certain home where she called a man by name, saying that he had been her brother in her previous life. Nor did she stop there. She explained that in her past incarnation she had hidden some gold pieces in a brick wall of the same house, but that she had died without ever having told anyone about it. The little girl went to the place in the wall, and lo! The gold pieces were there still. She described her clothes and how they had been packed away, and they were found to be exactly as she had said. In the face of such evidence, we are not justified in doubting the genuineness and significance of her experience.’

    [footnote quote in post 614 was here. edited out]

    [edit ] In 1992 a papal commission that was opened in 1979 by Pope John Paul II acknowledged that Church officials were in error when they condemned Galileo for his teaching that the earth revolves around the sun. Even though the Catholic Church is supposed to be infallible it is made up of members that are fallible so I don’t think one should blindly accept absolutely everything without question. If nothing is impossible then I think that you would have to admit that the Second Council of Constantinople could have made a mistake. Perhaps in the large scheme of things it was best that it made the mistake it did. (In my opinion it was a mistake though you might not agree.) There are many souls that might delay in making a sincere effort to improve if they knew they had many future opportunities to change but souls that are more advanced shouldn’t need to have the truth hidden from them.

    Reincarnation explains many things. It explains why we see souls in so many different stages of mental, physical and spiritual development. There are some souls that are great saints and some that are living like beasts and everything in between. Some souls are making the greatest efforts to uproot bad habits and improve themselves and they make much progress but they don’t get near reaching the high states of consciousness that the great saints reach. This is because those who have attained a high degree of spirituality have come many times before and made much progress through many lives overcoming imperfections, limitations and weaknesses and awakening their soul intuition and this is how it is possible for them to reach those high states of consciousness that others haven’t been able to attain.

    Reincarnation also explains some things that some might say are unjust of God if there is no reincarnation. People that are born crippled, deformed, blind, deaf, with missing limbs or with a deficient brain were born that way for a reason. If God creates each soul at the time of conception or some time before conception, why would He start some souls off with such a disadvantage? This is explained by reincarnation. What we sow we must reap. Souls that sow evil and ignorance, hate, etc. are going to reap the bad harvest. Souls that are born with deficiencies sowed ignorance of some sort in one or more previous lives.

    Some souls are born into loving families with good parents that provide a positive example and others are born into families that are a bad environment with parents that are abusive. Are we to say that God is just rolling the dice here and arbitrarily assigning good parents to some and bad parents to others? According to the doctrine of reincarnation a soul draws a certain environment to it in a new incarnation according to how it lived in previous lives.

    Babies that are born dead or live for only a few months or for a very short time don’t have time to earn heaven or merit hell. For them to be stuck in limbo for eternity wouldn’t be fair. Reincarnation allows for those souls to come again so they can live a long life and progress.

    [paragraph edited out]

    Reincarnation explains some other things. It explains what Jesus meant when he said that John the Baptist is Elijah. What he meant is that John the Baptist is Elijah. The soul that was in Elijah is the same soul that was in John the Baptist. Can you think of something else that would better explain what would be meant here? In Luke 1:13-17 it talks about John the Baptist’s birth being foretold and it says, “And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah…” Yogananda explains, “When John denied that he was Elias (Elijah), he meant that in the humble garb of John he came no longer in the outward elevation of Elijah the great guru.” The New Testament references from Matthew where Jesus tells his disciples that John the Baptist was Elijah are Matthew 17:12-13 and 11:13-14.

    I’ll quote from the Self-Realization Fellowship Lessons:
    ‘In the Bible we read: “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out” (Revelations 3:12). He who overcomes the bodily desires will be a fixed soul (pillar) in the mansion of God’s presence, and he will not have to go back to the earth in pursuit of the fulfillment of earthly desires.
    “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God” (Revelation 2:7). He who overcomes the desires of the body will not come back to earth to taste the bittersweet fruits of earthly life, but will be able to enjoy God, or the “Tree of Life,” which is ever present in the paradise of ever living, divine happiness.’

    I know that there are many Christians that think that if they go to church on Sundays and they say their prayers and do generally a good job of following God’s laws that when they die they’ll be converted instantly and effortlessly into angels. This is the reason I think it’s good to understand how reincarnation operates. Death does free us temporarily from the burden of having a physical body with all its limitations and aches and pains but if we leave the body with material desires we eventually will be drawn back for another physical incarnation. We get a welcome rest in the astral world and we are renewed but we can’t remain there permanently if we have material desires.

    If we get in the habit of depending upon a car because we need to go to the store or we need to travel or go to work, then as often as that car gets destroyed or stolen or becomes useless we will have to replace it with another. If we learn to live happily without a car then we won’t need a car. So in the same way as long as we are attached to the vehicle of a human body because we are attached to the experiences that come through the human body then when we leave one human body we will have to return to another human body again and again until we rise above all bodily desires and a body is no longer necessary to us.

    Make as many mistakes as you can as quickly as you can. We want to make sure that we make a great enough number of mistakes in a given amount of time so that we can be successful.

    "Persistence is the magic of success." Paramahansa Yogananda

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    I agree with everything you said in the previous post. As I said before, we are here to learn our lessons, this is our back-yard, our testing ground...

    Quote Originally Posted by EntityX View Post
    Back a few years ago I wrote a long letter that I sent to certain people.
    Could I have the complete thing ?

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by EntityX View Post
    There are other planets on which they could incarnate in some humanoid body.
    By the way, I forgot you comment on this earlier.

    I like the way you wrote that sentence. Mostly because I also believe in the same thing, and also implies that you believe in aliens (same here).

    But I also have a question: Isn't it interesting that all aliens that we know of (visited us, or through trance, or remote viewing) also have a humanoid body?

    If you want my answer (in short): I believe it is the fabric of the universe that "generates" the DNA, and the shapes of beings throughout the universe. And we incarnate into the body type that is most compatible with our state of being. For example when our soul is first created, we go into animals, and lower level beings, as we progress we go into higher states of (material) beings. For example we can assume that most aliens that we came in contact with (since they are much more intelligent than us) that their body is in one of those higher states.

    [Edit]
    By the way check this: Carl Sagan on the origin of DNA. He says "assemble themselves", the question is "What" assembles it? (because themselves.. I don't think so)
    Last edited by CVMichael; Apr 5th, 2011 at 06:23 PM.

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Personally I believe there are aliens too. There are simply too many other possibly-inhabitable worlds not to be.

    But I doubt they're all humanoid. That's almost to imply there's no possibility a dog could have ever gained higher-order-consciousness. And I think they could have if evolution had taken a different turn. A turn that could have been completely taken (with some other creature of origins we know nothing about) on a different world.

    In short, having two arms and legs and a head on top, and walking upright doesn't seem to me to be some sort of requirement for our level of consciousness. It's all about developing mental capacity beyond pure instinct and short term non-complicated reasoning. And whatever body that occurs in will be adapted to the higher consciousness. Even if the head is underneath, it walk on tripods and breathes lava.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Orwell View Post
    it's almost impossible to find a version that isn't based on the king james version, otherwise known as the shake-spear version. I challenge you right now to find a mention of the devil in it.
    I only believe in the KJV, the others are all crap which confuses people.

    For hell in the KJV you can have a look at this: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4185619AApz0uO
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    And I've tried all day and have not come up with a single shread of logic that points to reincarnation.
    I have found logic that provokes a false belief of reincarnation based of people's fear of dying and the inability to face/comprehend it.
    My feeling exactly, reincarnation talks to peoples base fears about dying and death. If you can follow something that says if you believe in this then you dont actually die then that is quite alluring is it not !

    My problem with reincarnation is it just makes no sense at all.

    Also what makes humans so special what about animals do they reincarnate to ? and if so how do they improve themselves ?
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    My feeling exactly, reincarnation talks to peoples base fears about dying and death. If you can follow something that says if you believe in this then you dont actually die then that is quite alluring is it not !

    My problem with reincarnation is it just makes no sense at all.

    Also what makes humans so special what about animals do they reincarnate to ? and if so how do they improve themselves ?
    I believe that the karmic cycle doesn't disallow reincarnation as a dog.

    First you say it makes no sense - then you apply your own rules to it as if you have seen it happen.

    What side of that fence are you on?

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    I only believe in the KJV, the others are all crap which confuses people.
    But the KJV is just a fairly modern English translation of the bible? are you telling me its better then older versions written in other languages just because you understand it better ?

    Also how can you believe in the book itself? surely if you believe at all your supposed to believe in God not a book?

    Also here is another question i have never heard satisfactorily answered.

    If we were made in gods image does that mean that if we meet any aliens out there they will look just like us ? and what if they dont do they have a different god ?
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    First you say it makes no sense - then you apply your own rules to it as if you have seen it happen.
    No i was just asking a question, if humans can reincarnate can animals ?

    Now taking that a step further, if animals can reincarnate then how do they morally improve themselves? How does a Wolf for instance morally improve itself ?

    What side of that fence are you on?
    I thought i was fairly clear, reincarnation to me seems to be a get out clause for death. People are generally afraid of death, and so are comforted by the thought that they may in fact live on even after they die.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Now taking that a step further, if animals can reincarnate then how do they morally improve themselves? How does a Wolf for instance morally improve itself ?
    It's not about morally improving yourself (at that level), it's about the life experience. "Living..." is an experience (a lesson) on it's own.

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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by CVMichael View Post
    If you want my answer (in short): I believe it is the fabric of the universe that "generates" the DNA, and the shapes of beings throughout the universe.
    That is close to the theory I am working on. The fabric of the universe or the ether or the meeka particles (I made that word up [meeka] to simplify some of my discussions where it was requested of me to name what I was speaking of) could be what we perceive of as God. It could be guided by some sort of intelligence that is too advanced for us to comprehend. Also the ether has failed every test to detect it, yet there is more circumstantial evidence to indicate it exists then not. That could be where science and religion meet, but scientists can't do anything on faith. And you can not measure something that is a fraction of the size of an electron, you just have to believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Now taking that a step further, if animals can reincarnate then how do they morally improve themselves? How does a Wolf for instance morally improve itself ?
    That's easy. Just eat the bad lambs. The ones in the leather jackets smoking grass.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by EntityX View Post
    Back a few years ago I wrote a long letter that I sent to certain people. Here are some excerpts from it. I wouldn't say it proves reincarnation but it gives you something to think about concerning reincarnation. I chopped out some stuff to meet the character limit for a post.
    Thanks. That was extremely intriguing.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers View Post
    Also what makes humans so special what about animals do they reincarnate to ? and if so how do they improve themselves ?
    Why even bother asking that. The answer is YES, and we have proof: Mendhak.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    It's not about morally improving yourself (at that level), it's about the life experience. "Living..." is an experience (a lesson) on it's own.
    Could you please explain what this means ? at what level ?

    If living is an experience then does it not matter what i do in this life ? what if i was a serial killer ?


    you just have to believe
    Or Not depending on what your take on it is.

    That's easy. Just eat the bad lambs. The ones in the leather jackets smoking grass.
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    Re: [Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by MarMan View Post
    That would mean that life IS hell!!!
    NOW you're getting it!

    Quote Originally Posted by dee-u View Post
    I only believe in the KJV, the others are all crap which confuses people.

    For hell in the KJV you can have a look at this: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4185619AApz0uO
    there was a community grave named sheol outside their city. "fires of the grave" is literal as it was a constant pyre.
    Quote Originally Posted by marman
    A mistake I see a lot of people make is to take the Bible literally. That is an impossible task.
    thanks for making my point for me. nowhere in the old testament is it written any way besides a historical account, but whenever someone challenges a fact in it, people always say "it's not meant to be literal". I will however state that i don't think the first and last books were ever meant to be literal. Revelation and genesis. The new testament is especially annoying in this regard in that the parts that are supposed to be taken literally as historic don't agree with themselves. there are parts of mark or luke that contradict matthew and john. Jesus's last words for example. Now don't get me wrong, a lot of it gives a great historical insight of how people lived back then (washing your feet is a luxury due to water shortage and a sign of great respect when they offer their water to wash yours). but going back to the old testament, it may not be well-known but the old testament and the koran contain almost exactly the same stories. According to what i've uncovered, they were written by brothers so the points of view differ slightly but other than that you'll find a lot of similarities.

    but going back to new testament, you should carefullythe books after john. I believe it's in romans but perhaps acts or corinthians, where the "elders" of the brand-new church are clearly setting guidelines for church members to follow concerning tithes, etc. None of this was from heaven, it was from members. Most damning (a pun) of this evidence is where they decide that other nations are not to be held to the same standard as themselves in order to make joining the church more attractive for people of those nations. Let's fact it, Jesus said to be a perfect follower you needed to give everything you owned to the church, and people were actually doing it back then. It was kind of like a pyramid scheme in reverse. Everyone already in the church were living off the donations of the people newly joining. And no one was working. This alone shows how many people today are doing this correctly. "Jesus is the way" they shout from the rooftops, but doesn't this mean to also follow his teachings? How many of you so-called christians reading this give anything to your church? I'm cutting this off short...

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