above 50 years old and still programming

[dilettante]

The right place to start that second curve is at a first intersection where there is time, as well as the resources and energy, to get the new curve through its initial explorations and floundering before the first curve begins to dip downward (second intersection).

Been there, failed to do that. At least I got out of Dodge and had a decent pension to fall back on at 55.

[dilettante]

The reality was actually more complicated.

I was on the upward slope, then suddenly rose further. Fell back, then somehow ticked off the gods and ended up in a kind of "IT Siberia" (and even then there were sniggers about an even colder Siberia). Got pulled back up from there out of a desperate for skills that outweighed organizational politics and personalities but flatlined there on a death march with no end in sight. Finally bailed at the last minute when I was eligible.

So that diagram is simplified, but reality is seldom so neat and well-defined.


If you want to know what a "colder Siberia" might be, the gag was that a new data center was going to be established within Zug Island somewhere and needed a small caretaker staff drawn from those on upper management's Enemies List. This is a rusty old U.S. Steel property now often called "Detroit's Area 51" since access is restricted with the entire compound "under the protection of" Homeland Security... for whatever reason. Maybe mutant monsters due to the toxins?

[dilettante]

For more laughs at my expense, read:

A Hellscape Among the Ruins: Zug Island

[techgnome]

Been there, failed to do that. At least I got out of Dodge and had a decent pension to fall back on at 55.

I'm now on that red line... well... sort of... I changed technologies. Where I was wasn't going anywhere at the time. So I completely got out of it, and into something else. I'm happy again. But I want to get back into .NET and pick up Core, as it seems the demand around here is picking up for that. So I just need to find myself a project to work on and get moving on it to show I cna do it still.

-tg

[yereverluvinuncleber]

I'm not sure I would go anywhere near Microsoft Technologies at the moment until the mess that Microsoft has created subsides into something stable: https://www.codeproject.com/Lounge.a...01#xx5806301xx

and this: https://www.infoq.com/articles/futur...s-development/

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah? I work for a place that is entirely on Windows systems. Would you really suggest moving somewhere else?

That first article mentioned POSIX (which I always snicker at, because POS is an acronym that CAN stand for something where the second word is Of, and the first is Piece). That's great, for Apple and Linux, two backwaters that have been the future for four and two plus decades, respectively. Heck, I don't even need to care about cross platform, and neither do lots of people. To care about cross platform, you have to be writing something that 1) doesn't just run in a browser, and B) needs to run on multiple platforms.

I'm still writing stuff for framework, and dabbling in Core. I like the general direction of convergence that MS seems to be pursuing steadily, but it doesn't even matter. I'm considering a career change, as well, based on a program that I've written. If somebody wants that to move to Core...sure, whatever, but I doubt that will be of any interest to anybody.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Well, yes, I am thinking that. Seriously.

Things are maturing. If TwinBasic or RADBasic mature and multiplatform compatibility with VB6 code becomes a thing, then I have an opportunity to code in my favourite language of choice on Linux and potentially os/x.

As a VB6er I have always felt shat upon.

Windows 10 was the final kick in the teeth from Microsoft and since then I have been looking for a way out. I have two routes, neither of them are mature nor sensible in the short term. One is ReactOS and the other is Linux. My trust in MS was finally lost when Win8 came about, the death of Win32 apps mooted and a focus on the Windows store, Windows RT on Surface, Windows Phone, Windows 10, Windows 10x, NET CORE, .WPF, UWP, Project Reunion, 32bit apps to be side-lined one day?. All that shitfeckeri.

I just don't trust them to come up with anything that is going to last at the moment. I certainly don't want to be a part of anything they are coming up with. It appears so unstable and I see no place for me amongst all that.

I certainly don't see the future as being the Microsoft/Intel path that it once was. VB6 on Linux would suit me fine. C++ and possibly keeping an eye on Lazarus. Sorry to deviate the thread but I've just become a microsoft hater despite loving VB6, XP and Win7. No better time to move away I feel.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Well, things are a'changing. We can consider outcomes that we previously could not even hope for.

There were various BASICs but only one VB6. Perhaps soon, there may be three! That does not include Microsoft's offering.

[Shaggy Hiker]

As a VB6'er you feel like you have been shat upon because you always have been. That language was looked down on even when it was clearly the best option for writing Windows applications. Still, I think the idea that either RADBasic or TwinBasic will work out is crazy. People are objecting to one of the largest corporations in the world abandoning them....so they are going to hitch their wagon to a single, old, horse???? I understand the near desperation of some people who have a lot of investment in VB6, but who in their right mind thinks that's a GOOD idea? Even the history of FOSS is turbulent, at best. How many projects have been abandoned due to trouble in the ranks? Those two aren't FOSS, yet, may never be, and the ranks are neither young nor deep enough to survive much of life's turbulence.

As for things a'changing, I hope you don't mean Linux and OS...whatever? As I said before, those are the future, have been the future for decades, and seem likely to be the future for decades yet to come. That has NOT changed.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Supported by one or two is better than being supported by none (and then having **** thrown at you from time to time).

The good thing about the idea of VB6 on Linux, is for me, the exploration of new technologies, the POSIX APIs, cross platform graphics technologies, a good desktop o/s, freedom from Windows increasingly heavyweight frameworks and increasing exposure to FOSS that Linux brings. All that - and retaining compatibility with Windows - using VB6! Who'd have thought it?

Your vote of confidence in TB/RB is noted and I'll rub your face in it later when you are proven wrong.

[dilettante]

I programmed using many languages and operating systems over the years. I started doing it for pay in 1975 and didn't retire until 2011, even then going on to take contracting gigs here and there and eventually doing training until the cost/benefit drove me out.

What I don't understand is how any kind of quality comes out of the rapid software technology churn. I know from experience how thin the skill level of people pushed through Indian and US community colleges and "boot camps" is. Without significant time in one saddle you get exactly the sort of product you'd expect. It is getting to a point where having 5 years experience makes you the "old man" and facing obsolescence.

[yereverluvinuncleber]

What I don't understand is how any kind of quality comes out of the rapid software technology churn.

Utterly agreed.

[sapator]

I've said it before and I don't regret it. The only good thing MS did , at least from what I am using over the years, is SQL Server (and DOS but let's skip that) .
Unfortunately my work always involved using MS tools so I always have in mind to migrate to something else but I can't as currently the salary for doing so will greatly diminish.
Visual studio is very slow , maybe because or the MSIL while SQL tends to go up on speed, as long as the interface is loaded. For windows I have expressed my opinion and any mobile attempt is laughable.
Having said that and not wanting to start the usual as dday9 implied I will gracefully depart...

[Shaggy Hiker]

Your vote of confidence in TB/RB is noted and I'll rub your face in it later when you are proven wrong.

Feel free, but you'll have to find me, first. I may still be here, but at what point would I be proven wrong? I used VB6 for several years, right up until 2003 or 2004. It was a good IDE for it's time, and a good language. It's also still around. So, how would you decide if I was wrong? If the project is doing what you want (runs existing VB6 code and maybe even runs on other platforms seems to be the lowest common requirements), has a user base at least as large as Lazarus, and is still in active development after five years, I think that would be good enough. Don't go crowing about it if it still exists, but isn't being developed, or has no more than a few dozen users. I would laugh at your paltry attempts to rub THAT in my face. If you'd like a different measure for success, I'd be happy to consider it.

That may be a bit facetious, but what Dil said is quite correct. I feel that the web is even worse, but desktop is fading to a strong niche area. The churn of technologies in the web, and to a lesser extent on the desktop, feels like it is such that anybody who starts a multi-year (even just two) software project is doomed to be using technology that will be considered out of date by the time the project is finished. In a way, that is good for us. As long as you want to keep learning, there's always going to be the next new thing that has some PHB all hot and bothered.

A few years back, I pointed out to our group that our source control works like this: Everybody works on whatever they wrote. When they leave, we throw out everything they wrote and re-write it. In some cases, it was because what they wrote was crap. In other cases, it was because technology had moved so far that maintaining what they wrote was either impossible, or not a good idea. I've written several programs that were good in their day, but which won't run on ANY modern computer. In one case, the whole technology platform went away in a flash (PDA's, which went extinct almost over night as smart phones showed up). I also have a program that has been in continual use since somewhere back around 1998. It's amazing that it still runs, and large parts of it do not, since it was based on network topologies and technology that no longer exists. We were using 3.5" floppy discs to transfer data around at the time, though I think that program largely avoided any dependency on them.

I now have a program that is probably worth something. Attempts to do similar things have cost half a million or three million, and those two attempts are decidedly worse than what I have written. Still, I'm not sure whether others in the industry even SHOULD be interested in it. While it's a Lego-like system, where parts can be swapped in and out, which makes it able to avoid certain forms of obsolescence, there are still dependencies. The amount of money thrown at the problem by various states shows that there is considerable interest, but I can't help but think that interest is born out of a toxic mix of ignorance and irrational optimism.

Linux isn't the future, Apple REALLY isn't the future (I wouldn't be surprised to see them leave the PC market entirely, just out of sheer boredom), the web has drawbacks (my niche won't work on the web), but what else is there? There's Windows.

What we'd probably all prefer is to have the technology slow down so that we aren't constantly trying to hit a moving target. VB.NET has slowed, yet everybody read the announcements from MS not as, "we aren't going to change this language every year the way we are with C#", but as, "VB.NET is doomed and will be exterminated any day now." If the target keeps moving, we can't keep up. If the target stops moving...we leave it for dead.

It's a funny world.

[techgnome]

Unfortunately my work always involved using MS tools so I always have in mind to migrate to something else but I can't as currently the salary for doing so will greatly diminish.

Liar! Liar! Liar pants on fire. Your could... you don't want to... big difference. For a long time I didn't want to either. Then I did. Yeah, I took a pay cut... it hit me at 10% pretty big chunk... I just passed my 3 year mark with the new company, new technology ... and I've already made up most of that difference that I lost. And now I'm decent in two tech stacks, not just one. C# and VB.NET could die and stop working tomorrow, and I'd still be able to keep rolling. Java could stop working tomorrow as well, and I'd also still be able to keep going. Something about eggs and baskets...
Sure I've questioned my decision since then... more than once. But at the same time, I'm loving what I'm doing, I'm working on stuff I never thought I'd get to work on. Learning new things... meanwhle I've got a couple of ideas in store for some projects I might try to do in .NET Core. Just to see. Who knows. At the least it'll be something I can add to the arsenal, and something I can use with the employer when we're going up for projects.


-tg

[sapator]

I wish I was lying.
Due to the economic crisis the jobs got demolished so buggers can't be choosers. The only point I could have turned whas about 8-10 years ago when I was changing from forms to web development.
Anyhow, if I change now I would probably change the field I'm into, meaning software development.

[dilettante]

Anyone else remember when Sybase, Microsoft, and Ashton-Tate forked Sybase SQL Server to run on OS/2 platforms?

[dilettante]

Anyone else remember programming a computer so early that the CPU register panel used incandescent bulbs?

I started writing horror stories and triumphs of those days but I'm sure nobody is that interested, I'll just say people don't always appreciate the luxuries they have as programmers today.

When is the last time you got a weekend 3AM phone call desperate for immediate support to get a system back up and running? And over the phone with no remote access on your end?

[sapator]

Never but I've heard a story at my work that a long time ago an ex-employee drove all the way from Athens to Patras , that must be, 200-300km? The point of that trip was to insert a disk into a disk drive at a company PC over there!

[Peter Swinkels]

Hmmm, I have heard of computers using incandescent light bulbs, and while driving 200-3000km to insert a floppy disk isn't something I have heard before I remember actually physically having to go to someone else's place to exchange files with each other.

I have talked with younger people about old computers, kids are amazed when you tell them computers only used to display two colors at a time. Things have changed. A lot.

[2kaud]

Anyone else remember programming a computer so early that the CPU register panel used incandescent bulbs?

Not sure what type the bulbs were, but I certainly remember using/programming computers that had a front panel of lights that displayed address, instruction etc in binary (DG, HP and DEC come to mind). On some, you had to hand code the boot sequence in binary using toggle switches as well before the os would load from the drum and start! Or for the 'lucky' ones, would start reading the paper tape that would install the os into memory to run. 110 baud teletypes and all. Ah those were the interesting days! When we got a new system that had a 'soft' front panel using a monitor with a keyboard that emulated the hardware front panel, we thought Christmas had come early!

Remember how we laughed away the hours
Dreamed of all the great things we would do?

Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end

[JaniceNJ]

I'm sure that age doesn't affect how a person can program! The main thing is desire !!!

[yereverluvinuncleber]

Anyone else remember programming a computer so early that the CPU register panel used incandescent bulbs?

I don't remember programming on one of these but I do remember operating one. It was a Raytheon, can't remember which, using punch cards as the data input mechanism. It was a tape to tape system where one tape was used for data input and another was used for temporary storage and the program to run was input by punchcard. No drives of any sort, no drums, nor discs. The front panel had all the registers displayed using lamps with buttons below so that you could set the registers, latch pressed on/off or disabled.

Pressing one during a program run was strongly discouraged! The program runs would take all night. It was the analysis of seismic data from seismograph analysis trucks searching for resources, mainly gold all across South Africa.

In the same room was the only VAX 11/780 allowed in sanction-hit South Africa. Presidential approval had to be given to allow the Vax to even enter the country with the proviso that no South African government official was to be allowed anywhere near it.

[dilettante]

I can remember when recompiling the operating system with option changes or patches was entirely tape to tape. Then to load it after compiling you booted from binary punched cards where a few cards were bootstrapping code that loaded the next block of cards that could copy the OS from tape to disk, then finally start the new OS for the first time.

This was always a tense operation. Most big computers couldn't be offline very long, downtime cost big money and could even cost lives. You spent an awful lot of time making sure you didn't have any bugs, because it might be weeks before you could fix the bugs and get another shot at compiling and reloading. The compilation itself tied up so many resources that you had to schedule time separately for that.

At that time most big computers weren't really online. They ran batch programs for the most part, and maybe supported a few terminals in addition to the system console terminals.

Others had very large terminal networks and were also networked to other big systems and "internets" and had to stay up as close as possible to 24x7. Keeping response time low was also critical. We had a cartoon poster with a gorilla jumping on top of a cop car captioned "Response Time is Critical!"