Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

[FunkyDexter]

I am not sure anyone has a clue what his message was. I think we need to go / not go to work and use public transport but socially distant public transport and only with members of our immediate household. Or something.

Did you see the Matt Lucas parody? It's pretty much that.

The Welsh guidance seems much simpler: Stay in, nothing's changed.

[si_the_geek]

Boris' message yesterday was a confusing mess. God knows what the rules are now, I don't have a clue.

I could be wrong, but I think you're allowed to ride a bike on Mondays and Fridays, but on Friday afternoons you have to ride it backwards. On all other days you have to wear a traffic cone on your head if you've met someone called Dave in the last 738 days. Luckily I haven't met a Dave for several years, but I stocked up on traffic cones just in case I meet one now.

Or more realistically, for those who haven't heard about it... it stays as "stay at home" same, except:

• outdoor exercise/sunbathing/etc becomes unlimited (but still keep your distance),
• people who can't work from home should go to work (but not in pubs etc and "non-essential" shops),
• avoid public transport if possible (preferably by cycling/walking instead).

Thankfully lots of councils etc are actively making it easier to walk/cycle to work by temporarily closing off at least part of some roads, so one or more car lanes are now for walking/cycling. Apparently the plan is (and already was) to dramatically increase that idea permanently, by redesigning at least some major roads so that pavements and cycle lanes are wider.

Annoyingly the situation of "working while keeping your distance" is rather complicated, and it could be a while until companies get it sorted out... and some of them wont do it very well, so will increase the chances of the virus spreading.

As far as I can tell Boris is simply too weak to make a decision, so he is effectively trying to agree with both sides on the keep / abandon the lockdown argument and not surprisingly it is a confusing message.

It does seem as if it has been a bit rushed in some ways (including incomplete advice for companies to keep their staff safe), almost as if they weren't expecting to ever get to this stage.

Annoyingly various groups (including the press and the Labour party) had pressured the government to give us the full plan, rather than just the part we need to know now. It would have been better to tell us just the "now" part, then wait a few days before telling us the "future" plans.


Thankfully Boris will be giving us some clarification in the daily briefing later, but I would be surprised if it ends up being clear for everyone.

At least here in Wales we are sticking with the "Stay Home" message, rathe rthan the be alert for an invisible virus message.

I can't see it, so everything is fine

[si_the_geek]

Did you see the Matt Lucas parody? It's pretty much that.

"Sausage roll. Bottle of wine. Save lives"



I quite liked the TV channel advert:

This is an important public safety announcement, for your arse. If you have buttocks, put them on the sofa. The longer they stay there, the quicker we'll get through this.

the funny video version (including minor nudity): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_35NA5d49I

[PlausiblyDamp]

Annoyingly the situation of "working while keeping your distance" is rather complicated, and it could be a while until companies get it sorted out... and some of them wont do it very well, so will increase the chances of the virus spreading.

It does seem as if it has been a bit rushed in some ways (including incomplete advice for companies to keep their staff safe), almost as if they weren't expecting to ever get to this stage.

Annoyingly various groups (including the press and the Labour party) had pressured the government to give us the full plan, rather than just the part we need to know now. It would have been better to tell us just the "now" part, then wait a few days before telling us the "future" plans.

I think Boris caused a lot of problems by releasing this information on a Sunday night with only 12 hours or so notice that people should be going into work (or not) by public transport (or not) and it gave businesses and staff absolutely no time to plan or even understand what was required. The fact this was slipped out as almost a publicity stunt rather than going through the normal parlimentary approval process has also caused a lot of confusion.

[si_the_geek]

Sunday does seem like a bad choice, a day or more earlier (when they presumably had it all planned already) would have allowed more preparation... but it would also mean that there would be larger amounts of people experiencing a new situation (such as transport issues) at the same time, and that could cause complications.

Having some temporary confusion might actually be a good thing, as people will try out the new issues starting in smaller numbers initially, which might for example persuade some bus users to walk/cycle instead. It will also mean that bosses will be more forgiving of their staff getting things wrong (like turning up late) for a few days while the situation is becoming normal.


I think that while it seems strange on the surface, they may well have planned the confusion as a method of making the change more gradual.

[FunkyDexter]

I honestly don't know if the new measures are good or bad because the delivery was so half arsed. My gut feeling is that they're sensible but premature by 3 weeks or so.

So we're allowed to travel to exercise now and are able to exercise as much as we like. That's basically a good thing but I am worried we'll see a recurrence of people flooding to Local beauty spots again. It feels to me like there should definitely still be some limitations on this because the way it's been phrased at the moment is wide open to abuse. (Si, I'm thinking about going to Arnos Vale park this afternoon and doing some very, very slow sit-ups on a towel with a couple tinnies. Do you fancy doing your exercise in the same time and place? We won't be meeting, just doing sit-ups 2 metres apart from each other. If we get bored we can take a drive down to Weston Beach and do our sit ups there. Plausibly won't be able to join us because... Wales)

We can see our families but only one person at time and one at 2m distance. I find the one person thing weird when everything else has been based on households. This one's really confused though. I've seen some politicians saying you're not allowed to and some saying it's fine. Also, see the above abuse, because that will definitely be a thing.

Re-opening garden centres. This one seems like a big win to me and, if you're going to start opening retail businesses, this seems like the best place I can think of to start.

Schools to re-open for next years exam takers by end of June. This feels sensible and achievable but we damn well better get adequate PPE in place for teachers before it happens and any children who are part of vulnerable families should absolutely NOT be attending.

I liked the rhetoric of setting a direction of travel but that we'd row back if we start to see a new spike however I absolutely do not believe we have the testing in place to make that call. This is my main reason for saying it's premature. At present we're basically testing key workers and people who get hospitalised. That's nowhere near enough to get a real picture of what's going on and is inevitably massively skewed. You need a randomised sample of sufficient size. That means randomised testing of people regardless of whether they're showing any symptoms. Probably at roadsides or supermarket queues etc. Without that we're basically going to looking at a lag of aprox 2 weeks between lifting restriction and seeing the effects. This virus can do terrifying things in two weeks if we get it wrong.

The you need to go back to work unless you can work from home was very badly delivered. It appeared to be effective from today, though it turns out it was meant to be from Wednesday. That seems to be the single thing that's caused most confusion. I also think Wednesday is too early to expect employers to get their arrangements in place for a bunch of returning staff. It should have been a message to employers to start re-opening when they felt they could and then leave it up to the employers to communicate exact dates and arrangements to their staff.

they may well have planned the confusion

Nope, not buying it. The confusion was accidental and a result of poor message in my opinion.

[Shaggy Hiker]

There is pressure to re-open the economy. Everybody talks about clamping down again if there is a spike, but that's going to be VERY hard for politicians to do. That means that a rise will be wished away, and a clamp down will only happen when a spike has become so pronounced that a catastrophe is already well underway.

We need FAR more testing over here. We need far more contact tracing, but since we're starting from near zero, the percentage increase will be astronomical. We don't have either of those, and cases aren't dropping in many areas, but we're still going ahead with opening. It may work out.

[PlausiblyDamp]

There is pressure to re-open the economy. Everybody talks about clamping down again if there is a spike, but that's going to be VERY hard for politicians to do. That means that a rise will be wished away, and a clamp down will only happen when a spike has become so pronounced that a catastrophe is already well underway.

We need FAR more testing over here. We need far more contact tracing, but since we're starting from near zero, the percentage increase will be astronomical. We don't have either of those, and cases aren't dropping in many areas, but we're still going ahead with opening. It may work out.

Our testing approach has been an utter failure, we aren't managing anywhere near enough tests (even with dubious maths to reach our self imposed targets). Contact tracing isn't going to be much use when nobody knows if any of the contacts have COVID-19 or not because not enough testing is being done to establish a baseline in the first place. Nobody seems to know what is happening with the tracing App, although the proposed solution is highly likely to be a failure due to mobile security preventing background tracking.

If we do start to relax the rules and another wave hits then the economic impact of a second shutdown will be far worse than just making sure this first lockdown is long enough, however being half-arsed is pretty much the standard approach by this government so....

[techgnome]

-tg

[si_the_geek]

Nope, not buying it. The confusion was accidental and a result of poor message in my opinion.

Based on the news within an a hour of my post, I fully agree.

We now have a 50 page document clarifying things, and among other things it shows that it was supposed to be "from Wednesday" (for work at least), and that even government ministers (including the Foreign Secretary) who were interviewed earlier today don't actually know the rules yet.

I think I'll wait a few hours for the news outlets to read and abbreviate it! (which they should have been allowed to do before/while it was announced)

It feels to me like there should definitely still be some limitations on this because the way it's been phrased at the moment is wide open to abuse. (Si, I'm thinking about going to Arnos Vale park this afternoon and doing some very, very slow sit-ups on a towel with a couple tinnies. Do you fancy doing your exercise in the same time and place? We won't be meeting, just doing sit-ups 2 metres apart from each other. If we get bored we can take a drive down to Weston Beach and do our sit ups there. Plausibly won't be able to join us because... Wales)

It's worrying that I immediately had the urge to grab my shoes to get there right now!

As I'm the kind of person who abides by rules, I have the feeling abuse will be rife... oh dear

Our testing approach has been an utter failure, we aren't managing anywhere near enough tests (even with dubious maths to reach our self imposed targets). Contact tracing isn't going to be much use when nobody knows if any of the contacts have COVID-19 or not because not enough testing is being done to establish a baseline in the first place. Nobody seems to know what is happening with the tracing App, although the proposed solution is highly likely to be a failure due to mobile security preventing background tracking.

It has the potential to be fine when we need it, assuming that the infection rate keeps on the expected trajectory (so there are fewer people who want a test), and the tracing app works well (it is already being tested on the thousands of people on the Isle of Wight, with the aim to eliminate flaws).

At the start of the weekend I saw an interview with a specialist in that kind of thing, and he made it sound very promising... but based on how badly the news on lockdown changes has been handled, my faith is significantly diminished.

[kfcSmitty]

BTW, I'm not saying I agree with either of those guys.

As I write this it even appears that S. Korea may be entering its second wave already and it sounds alarming.

I'm just asking questions, not offering advice. What is so wrong about an open mind?

Think about it this way: if this were a thread about landing on the moon, would you be posting a bunch of videos about how it is a hoax?

You post stuff because you find it credible and worth people to think about it. You are offering advice, as the items you posted seemed credible enough to you to warrant trying to sway people's opinions.

It is fine to keep an open mind, but if you post stuff from conspiracy theorists, then it is obvious that you deem them credible.

[techgnome]

Meh, I think it's fine to post vids like that... but if you don't agree with them, why post them? Especially with out any context. Posting a video with no context or explanation is an implied thumbs-up, "I agree" ... if you using it to make a point about something, then add some commentary.

Otherwise it comes off looking like a Trumpism "I said X, but I meant Y, I was being sarcastic."

-tg

[TysonLPrice]

Meh, I think it's fine to post vids like that... but if you don't agree with them, why post them? Especially with out any context. Posting a video with no context or explanation is an implied thumbs-up, "I agree" ... if you using it to make a point about something, then add some commentary.

Otherwise it comes off looking like a Trumpism "I said X, but I meant Y, I was being sarcastic."

-tg

I mentioned from his post #652 he was deliberately doing this:

LOL, well I have to give you that.

My point was that this particular topic has become something of a fact-free emotional sporting event on both sides of the question, so why not let the other side play?

Sure does get the knees jerking though. There must be something to the theory that many have a weird S&M relationship with their Trump-photo plastered bedroom walls.

I called it trolling but a couple people disagreed. The bottom line is he is having some fun....

[Shaggy Hiker]

and the tracing app works well (it is already being tested on the thousands of people on the Isle of Wight, with the aim to eliminate flaws).

That's not a valid test. Those on the Isle of Wight always practice social distancing, since they drain a level whenever they touch each other.

(there's a good geek joke for people).

[dilettante]

Hydroxychloroquine revisited:



"Um, well, dunno really."


Point being that there might be something in it, might not. We just don't know conclusively yet.

[dilettante]

Why on Earth does posting information mean you endorse it?

Sorry, I guess I'm jut not that satisfied in my own infallibility.

[dilettante]

Picture I decided not to send on to Dr. Campbell.

[TysonLPrice]

Why on Earth does posting information mean you endorse it?

Sorry, I guess I'm jut not that satisfied in my own infallibility.

Here is what I mean/meant both times I posted I thought you were trolling/fooling around...

If anybody here is trolling it is me. I constantly throw out anti-Trump bombs hoping for either agreement or disagreement. I thought your posts were being posted as an antithesis to mine. In other words we were both throwing bombs with posted political content links. The difference is; mine are factual

[FunkyDexter]

We now have a 50 page document clarifying things

Yeah, it became increasingly clear throughout the day yesterday that there was actually quite a lot of meat behind the new measures. I still have my doubts about certain elements, think they're open to abuse and are being relaxed too early, but it is at least clear that the government had done a decent amount of preparatory work. I think BJ's announcement was terrible communications, though, and we'd have been much better leading with the detail rather than the announcement which comes across as a PR stunt. It's weird because, unlike Trump who's facing an election, BJ doesn't particularly need to chase PR at the moment.

Those on the Isle of Wight always practice social distancing

Loved the reference but you've clearly never been to the Isle of Wight. They do not practice social distancing there. Cousins, sisters, brothers... all fair game for romance over there.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

they may well have planned the confusion

Nope, not buying it. The confusion was accidental and a result of poor message in my opinion.

Si, you have generally been fairly forgiving of the governments response, i feel that you are really willing them to do well which is understandable if going a bit easy on them.

Why did they need to do the announcement on Sunday? it felt like political decision to do it as a national address on a Sunday, it wasn't necessary it avoided parliament, it felt rushed and it confused the message.

I honestly don't know if the new measures are good or bad because the delivery was so half arsed. My gut feeling is that they're sensible but premature by 3 weeks or so.

Yeah that my biggest issue with it is it feels early by a couple of weeks, we still have over 200 people dying a day i understand the want to open the economy but surely getting the timing right now will save money down the line if they avoid a second wave.

I actually dont think many business will get there workers back to work this week, as it will take some time to introduce the Covid secure workplace guidelines. I thought it would have been good to release the guidelines this week in order to let business prepare to make the workplaces safe over the next week or two and then get people back with numbers even lower.

It has the potential to be fine when we need it, assuming that the infection rate keeps on the expected trajectory (so there are fewer people who want a test), and the tracing app works well (it is already being tested on the thousands of people on the Isle of Wight, with the aim to eliminate flaws).

Hmm they are already looking at dropping there own app in favour of the one being developed by Google and Apple as theirs wont work properly in apple devices.

These are the reasons why i feel they are at least 2 weeks to early. The app is not ready yet, and neither are the contact tracing teams. Hospitals are still struggling with PPE, and testing is still not at the levels even the Government says we need.

It feel like we are trying to jump the gun and reopen to early when we haven't got the systems in place to avoid another outbreak fully in place yet.

Hopefully the government confused messaging actually buys us another week and not much changes this week.

[dilettante]

I've watched a lot of snippets or whole "updates" from the Governors of several U. S. States for weeks now.

One thing that has become a little comical is the "bad hair contest" among some of them. I suppose much of it is intentional, meant to convey that "staying home, no haircut" or "self haircut" look. Solidarity?

I just put a #4 comb on my clipper and run it all over my head.

[si_the_geek]

It happens over here too (and several other countries), and it does seem to be a solidarity thing.

I've been planning to get my clippers out to reduce my current "mop", so thanks for reminding me

I think BJ's announcement was terrible communications, though, and we'd have been much better leading with the detail rather than the announcement which comes across as a PR stunt. It's weird because, unlike Trump who's facing an election, BJ doesn't particularly need to chase PR at the moment.

Yep, with the hindsight we now have it was a poor announcement, especially in terms of when people were supposed to get back to work.

As to why it was done with the announcement first, I have the suspicion that Boris is just trying (poorly) to imitate his idol Churchill... while the initial announcement a few weeks ago had good hints of Winston Churchill, what happened in this case was closer to Comedy-Insurance-Dog Churchill.

Si, you have generally been fairly forgiving of the governments response,

Several of the failures are due to historical things that aren't due to the current government. Various people before now had caused issues (such as the limited testing and various PPE issues), and the whole Brexit saga meant that things weren't being put right. While Boris was one of many people who helped make the Brexit saga, it is a relatively small part... in my mind a bigger part was politics itself (and I don't see a way of "fixing" that).

In addition to those things, the serious-virus situation isn't something we've really had to deal with in this country in the 'modern' age, so the fact we had some things planned already was good... but the fact those plans weren't good enough isn't something that the current government are to blame for. I expect they will be making significant changes to infrastructure/processes/etc for the future, once all of the mistakes are known (and there will be a long list!).

Yeah that my biggest issue with it is it feels early by a couple of weeks, we still have over 200 people dying a day

The trouble is that the death rate is a lagged factor, so the decision on timing is actually based on the predicted rate in a few weeks. I don't know all that stuff well enough, and because I can't be bothered to research it I'll just trust the scientists, and hope the politicians are listening to them properly!

The extra delays from some businesses not being ready yet essentially pushes this a bit further away, as the changes right now will actually be a bit of a drip-feed.

It is sensible to be concerned about what will happen, but there are a lot of factors to take account of (including various other health issues being caused by lockdown, some of which are fatal too). It's a very tricky balancing act with no possible "good" outcome, and based on interviews with various independent experts I feel that the timing is roughly as-good-as-it-gets.

Hmm they are already looking at dropping there own app in favour of the one being developed by Google and Apple as theirs wont work properly in apple devices.

Oh dear... well at least the alternative option is already tested!

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Several of the failures are due to historical things that aren't due to the current government.

Well i suppose thats whether you count the current government as Boris and his cabinet or the Conservative government that has been in power for the last 10 years (of which at various points Boris was in the cabinet), as its unquestioned that if you look at the last 10 years it is the Conservative government that has cut the NHS laboratory testing capacity & PPE stock pile which has had a direct effect on are ability to deal with the current pandemic.

but the fact those plans weren't good enough isn't something that the current government are to blame for

Apart from the late lock down which we can lay clearly at Boris's door.

The trouble is that the death rate is a lagged factor, so the decision on timing is actually based on the predicted rate in a few weeks.

China, South Korea, New Zealand all had there new cases and death rates significantly lower when they reopened, and they have been pretty successful why cant we follow that model why take the risk for the sake of a week or 2?

It's a very tricky balancing act with no possible "good" outcome, and based on interviews with various independent experts I feel that the timing is roughly as-good-as-it-gets.

Surely a good outcome would be to be able to reopen without getting a spike in infections soon after, and a bad outcome would be the opposite as it would lead us back into lockdown of some sort?

[dilettante]

Maybe go for a "Belter Crest" like Joe Miller?




Spoilers:

[dreammanor]

China, South Korea, New Zealand all had there new cases and death rates significantly lower when they reopened, and they have been pretty successful why cant we follow that model why take the risk for the sake of a week or 2?

The Chinese method is unscientific, but effective. The British method is scientific but ineffective.

[si_the_geek]

China has done much better than the UK, but I don't think any differences in science account for much of it. Among many of the factors that are different, one of the most important is that China has fairly recent experience of other virus issues which have built up experience of dealing with them.

Well i suppose thats whether you count the current government as Boris and his cabinet or the Conservative government ...

Like many people I generally count governments based on the prime minister, as they are the primary decision maker. The conservatives have done bad things, and yes Boris did have some influence on that before he was in charge, so he is partly to blame for some of those things.


In terms of the timing of lockdown starting/changing/ending, your view seems too focussed on Covid itself, rather than all of the extras. It is currently believed that in the UK there are about 36k deaths from Covid itself, and about 14k other extras above the normal amount (some directly because of effects of the lockdown).

Covid is the top priority, but it is far from the only issue that needs to be urgently managed... It is very complicated, and I'll defer to the scientists on whether or not the timing is good.

Maybe go for a "Belter Crest" like Joe Miller?

Ooh no, I don't think that kind of thing would suit me!

[wes4dbt]

Yeah that my biggest issue with it is it feels early by a couple of weeks, we still have over 200 people dying a day

You must be talking about your location. Unless I've been seeing crap numbers, it looks like the UK is still @600 a day.

I think all the talk from the politicians and media has finally worn me down. I don't believe the US will ever be doing the necessary testing or any significant contact tracing. The citizens are losing their ability to wait the virus out and they're willing to except another 80,000 deaths. We might be able to get another couple weeks of stay at home. After that, if your not in an area that is spiking, the stay at home model wont be followed stringently enough to be meaningful. I live in a city of 200,000+ and it already isn't being followed. About half wear masks, plenty of cars on the streets, every day Home Depot and ACE Hardware has a line of people a block long.

Us old people are saying stay at home, save lives. Others are saying, if your scared stay home, let the people that want/need to work, go to work. What a mess and the fact that politicians are going to be the ones making these import decisions doesn't make the situation any better, since our country has become so polarized. No matter what, half the people are going to be complaining.

My crystal ball says that no matter if we wait a week or month that the virus will hit us in waves and we will respond. We will either get a vaccine or the percentage of people that are susceptible to severe adverse affects will grow smaller, which in turn will make it more manageable. But I got this crystal ball at the Dollar Store so don't bet your life on it!!!!

[si_the_geek]

You must be talking about your location. Unless I've been seeing crap numbers, it looks like the UK is still @600 a day.

You've been looking at the same region... but the numbers are crap due to our system.

The way the numbers get reported here goes strange over the weekend, because some of the non-hospital places are closed. Some of the weekend numbers actually get reported on Monday and Tuesday, so we're regularly told to watch the trend rather than pick a specific day - especially Tuesdays, which is why todays number is much bigger than the last few days.

[wes4dbt]

You've been looking at the same region... but the numbers are crap due to our system.

The way the numbers get reported here goes strange over the weekend, because some of the non-hospital places are closed. Some of the weekend numbers actually get reported on Monday and Tuesday, so we're regularly told to watch the trend rather than pick a specific day - especially Tuesdays, which is why todays number is much bigger than the last few days.

Yeah i've noticed that about weekend numbers but I thought all last week that the UK was in the 600 range.

[FunkyDexter]

while the initial announcement a few weeks ago had good hints of Winston Churchill, what happened in this case was closer to Comedy-Insurance-Dog Churchill.

Awwwwww yes

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Yeah i've noticed that about weekend numbers but I thought all last week that the UK was in the 600 range.

We had 1 day at 290 deaths and as it was trending downwards, i made the bad assumption that we would continue around the 200 - 300 range rather than jump back up to 600.

Like many people I generally count governments based on the prime minister, as they are the primary decision maker.

I would say your in the Minority there actually, the public had no problem with the Conservatives blaming the 2010 market crash on subsequent Labour oppositions for instance.

In terms of the timing of lockdown starting/changing/ending, your view seems too focussed on Covid itself, rather than all of the extras. It is currently believed that in the UK there are about 36k deaths from Covid itself, and about 14k other extras above the normal amount (some directly because of effects of the lockdown).

That is a strange way of looking at those numbers, as from what i have heard from health officials and doctors is that many of those 14k deaths will have been from Covid but we weren't testing enough to find out. There are people being given a death certificate saying they died of Pneumonia in April ???? how likely is that!

We are clearly under reporting the number of Deaths caused by the Virus there is just no way that 14k deaths can be correctly attributed to other causes, and there is clear anecdotal evidence supporting this.

It is very complicated, and I'll defer to the scientists on whether or not the timing is good.

Which Scientists?

The Government Sage group?
The Governments lead Science adviser?
The Government? who give you their interpretation of the science they are receiving?

or maybe the Independent Sage science group led by David King?

There are many independent dissenting scientific voices to the governments positions, The Governments own Sage group has even criticised the Government on some things.

[TysonLPrice]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ul/3116843001/

For the second consecutive month, accidental poisonings from misuse of disinfectants, bleach and hand sanitizers rose in April compared to last year, according to the American Association of Poison Control Centers.

The AAPCC's National Poison Data System, which scrapes information from poison control centers across the nation, saw a spike of 122% in reported cases of accidental poisonings related to disinfectants, according to Forbes. That included a 77% jump for bleach and a 56% increase for hand sanitizer.

This last line:

"What is unclear is what effect, if any, President Donald Trump's comments during a White House briefing on the possibility of disinfectants helping cure corona virus had on the reported cases."

We would know that if they added how many of them watch Faux news. The majority I'd guess.

[FunkyDexter]

I've been injecting hand sanitiser orally. Tescos were sold out so I've been substituting vodka. Seems to be getting the job done.

[techgnome]

I've been injecting hand sanitiser orally. Tescos were sold out so I've been substituting vodka. Seems to be getting the job done.

Most sanitizers are alcohol based anyways... so you're just skipping all the artificial fillers... sounds healthy to me.

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

Scope has a pretty high concentration of alcohol. You can both sanitize your innards as well as having minty fresh breath.

[dilettante]

Finally gave online grocery ordering/delivery a try. Now awaiting the results.

Shelf-stable items will go into cardboard boxes for quarantine, frozen and refrigerated into a plastic tub with a couple of gallon jugs of chilled water and some "blue ice" type chillers. I don't have a really large insulated cooler but the large tub with lid ought to work.

Not sure quite how I'll handle cleaning the items. Some with porous surfaces like boxed goods can probably sit for 3 or 4 days. Others I may decide to spray down with hydrogen peroxide solution and place back in the "cooler" for a day. I'll probably wash produce in peroxide water with a little bit of liquid soap in it. Plastic-wrapped baked goods may get a spray as well and then an airing outside.

Dry weather today here at least.

Checking around, there doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus on this process. Some go overboard while others discourage attempts at aggressive cleaning.

I noticed while shopping that toilet paper and peroxide are still hard to keep in stock.

[dilettante]

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't like the idea of using detergent on produce. If you ingest some of that, it wouldn't be all that good.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

We wipe down our food packaging with a proper sanitizer solution but not unpacked food.

From what i have heard covid can last a fair amount of time on things like plastics and cardboard.

[dilettante]

Wow, sure had to cancel a lot of items and substitute others. A lot sold out between my ordering time and when the shopper got 'round to it. Lots of texting to and fro.

I think next time I'll order well before the store opens (limited hours these days) so I can pick an early delivery time. Then the reported stock should match what the shopper encounters better. They "shop" your items about an hour before scheduled delivery time.

I was surprised that she showed up with no mask or PPE of any kind though. I think she was also amused to see me girded up in mask and hoodie I wore while handling delivered items. This wasn't some local podunk store but a regional chain, so I was expecting slightly higher standards. At least I picked a semi-rural location slightly less likely to be crawling with SARS-COV-2. She also showed no hesitation about scooping up the cash tip I had left for her in a small ziplock bag with a rock holding it down.

Upon rechecking my order I found that I could rate and tip online, so no need for cash tipping anyway.