Post Race!

[Niya]

I certainly haven't read it anywhere else. =D

Yea, you are the most creative troll I've ever met. I'd pay mucho bucks to see you troll Christians the way you're trolling is with your tree hugging act. I don't think I could have kept it up this long.

[Niya]

...I don't imagine you have a sense of right and wrong, or if you do it seems very limited...

Eating = right.

Starving = wrong.

[Niya]

Of course not silly, that's why my favourite plants get into photosynthesis for me. I like tomatoes, mushrooms, lots of fruit and nuts, luverly.

Real men eat meat. It'll put some hair on your chest son!!
+10 man points if you hunt and kill the meat yourself.

[Niya]

That is correct, I only eat animals that I can justify killing for food and that includes snakes.

Weirdo. Can't say I've met many people that have eaten snake. Iguanas? Yes, but snakes.....err

[Niya]

Iguanas taste very good too btw. Tastes better than chicken. Would you eat iguanas Witis ? Technically you could since they are related to "guilty animals"(LOL) like snakes.

[Niya]

Does going around murdering folks come naturally to you?

I don't know. I've never murdered anyone.

[Witis]

Would you eat other humans if you could? What about the dead or dying and the physically and mentally disabled and the old folks, those humans unable to contribute anything to society, surely you would eat them up lickety split?

I donno. I have this natural human tendency to want to help humans less able than me....but I still wanna eat steak bro!

Heh, you can help save the world by refusing to eat steak Niya.

[Witis]

That's because they are my food source, that's the justification right there.

The problem is that evolution made humans the chiefs of planet earth and capable of treating all animals as potential sources of food, but it also gave humans enough intelligence to be able to determine which animals, if any, should be killed and used for food. Therefore treating all animals as a food source is going to get you into a lot of trouble Niya, a lot.

[Witis]

Yea, you are the most creative troll I've ever met. I'd pay mucho bucks to see you troll Christians the way you're trolling is with your tree hugging act. I don't think I could have kept it up this long.

Heh, thanks, I think, although I am not a troll and I truly believe everything I have written re determining which animals should be defended and which animals can be turned into food.

[Witis]

Eating = right.

Starving = wrong.

You won't starve if you cut out beef and chicken Niya, instead it will open a whole new world of culinary treats which are currently under appreciated including all sorts of fish including sharks, lobsters, crabs, and of course snakes.

[Niya]

Heh, you can help save the world by refusing to eat steak Niya.

How can me starving myself save the world ?

[Niya]

...Therefore treating all animals as a food source is going to get you into a lot of trouble Niya, a lot.

Really ? What kind of trouble. Prey tell!

[Niya]

You won't starve if you cut out beef and chicken Niya, instead it will open a whole new world of culinary treats which are currently under appreciated including all sorts of fish including sharks, lobsters, crabs, and of course snakes.

Beef, chicken and fish are the easiest to get. Not like you can go to a restaurant and order snake and only some might sell shark meat. Chickens and cows are ubiquitous. I'm allergic to crustaceans so crabs and lobsters are out.

[Niya]

...although I am not a troll and I truly believe everything I have written re determining which animals should be defended and which animals can be turned into food.

Yea right. I do not believe for a second that you are serious. This conversation is interesting and there are people who actually believe some of what you're pretending to believe and its amusing which is why I'm even entertaining this conversation.

[Witis]

Real men eat meat. It'll put some hair on your chest son!!
+10 man points if you hunt and kill the meat yourself.

Quit it with the son comments. However I'll take those man points, here's a gator that I'm going to cook up for dinner:

[Witis]

Weirdo. Can't say I've met many people that have eaten snake. Iguanas? Yes, but snakes.....err

Although you would probably eat snake if you had the opportunity.

[Witis]

Funny, I don't feel a compulsion to defend myself for doing what comes perfectly natural for me.

Does going around murdering folks come naturally to you?

I don't know. I've never murdered anyone.

Then it probably shouldn't feel natural to consciously murder cows and chickens. :L

[Witis]

How can me starving myself save the world ?

Don't starve yourself, just let the innocent animals go and help save the world one meal at a time.

[Witis]

Really ? What kind of trouble. Prey tell!

The traditional corrections for crimes as serious as murder include extended periods in prison and executions.

[Witis]

Beef, chicken and fish are the easiest to get. Not like you can go to a restaurant and order snake and only some might sell shark meat. Chickens and cows are ubiquitous. I'm allergic to crustaceans so crabs and lobsters are out.

You can always focus on a predominantly fish diet and taste the more exotic nasties like sharks and snakes if you get the opportunity.

[Witis]

Yea right. I do not believe for a second that you are serious. This conversation is interesting and there are people who actually believe some of what you're pretending to believe and its amusing which is why I'm even entertaining this conversation.

I actually live according to the logic I have provided. Why would I go around murdering innocent chickens and cows when there is an abundance of fresh and canned fish available everywhere I go? Who wants to go to hell when you can go to heaven instead?

[Niya]

The traditional corrections for crimes as serious as murder include extended periods in prison and executions.

Then why am I not in prison already ?

[Niya]

Although you would probably eat snake if you had the opportunity.

Yep!

[Niya]

I actually live according to the logic I have provided. Why would I go around murdering innocent chickens and cows when there is an abundance of fresh and canned fish available everywhere I go? Who wants to go to hell when you can go to heaven instead?

So you believe in heaven and hell ?

[Niya]

Quit it with the son comments. However I'll take those man points, here's a gator that I'm going to cook up for dinner:

Yum yum.

[Witis]

Then why am I not in prison already ?

Ah, you seem to think that you have a reasonable chance of getting away with your chicken and cow murders. I am not so optimistic re your chances especially as time nears infinity. ☹

[Witis]

Yep!

Yep, thought so, they always think they won't eat snake, fish or bear at first like baleen whales but they always do in the end.

[Witis]

So you believe in heaven and hell ?

Sure, if you are good then you go to heaven, if you are bad then you go off to the other place like the dinosaurs.

[Witis]

Yum yum.

Scores +10 man points, yes! ˚ᵕ˚

[Witis]

[Shaggy Hiker]

What have I made up? That there is no requirement for trees to line desert streams

Yeah, I don't know that there is a law about this. How many desert streams do you know that don't have any thick vegetation along them (not necessarily trees)? If you do know some, check out their grazing history, because you will probably find that they are heavily grazed. The presence of thick/tall vegetation in the desert tells you where the water is.

that the sun is hottest in the middle of the day

Where do you live? Out here, the hottest time of day isn't mid-day, but around 4 or 5 in the afternoon when the sun is not directly over head.

that the deepest pools are the coolest

Yeah, that's certainly one of the pieces you are making up. Perhaps you are thinking of lakes where thermal stratification can take place? Streams don't work that way. The temperature of the water is uniform throughout unless you have groundwater seeps.

or that desert fish have evolved to withstand desert conditions including warm water and some species can even survive when the water completely disappears?

There certainly are fish that have evolved as you state. There are also plenty of non-desert fish in desert streams. I'm also not sure that there is a desert fish that is consumed by humans. The fish in our streams are trout, and they are not tolerant of hot water, nor can they withstand drought. There are some trout species that were introduced, but there are also several species that are native to these streams and were doing fine until cows were introduced.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I have never indicated that taste is a valid justification for killing any plant or creature; "because they taste good" has been used by you, Niya, FunkyD, and many others in an attempt to falsely justify your consumption of chickens and cows.

You use it to justify eating fish. While you might conclude that piscivorous fish are murderers, and therefore you are justified in eating them, you haven't been very good about making any distinction regarding the diet of the fish. You just say that they taste good. You also appear to justify killing plants, which are necessarily innocent. I guess you never said that you liked the taste of vegetables, so perhaps you don't kill them because they taste good.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Heh, you can help save the world by refusing to eat steak Niya.

I agree with this statement. I rarely eat beef because the industry is evil, and the cows do so much damage. On the other hand, I occasionally eat shrimp, and there probably isn't a worse industry out there, so I'm a bit of a hypocrit in that regard.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yep, thought so, they always think they won't eat snake, fish or bear at first like baleen whales but they always do in the end.

What does that mean? Are you wrapping whales in with snakes, fish, or bears, or are you saying that whales don't think they will eat snakes, fish or bears...then end up eating them. If so...how did a whale end up eating a bear, especially a baleen whale?

By the way, do you eat ALL fish? For example, do you eat Tilapia? How about carp? Shrimp, clams, lobster (I realize they aren't actually fish, but they are seafood, and none of them are necessarily predatory)?

[Witis]

Yeah, I don't know that there is a law about this. How many desert streams do you know that don't have any thick vegetation along them (not necessarily trees)? If you do know some, check out their grazing history, because you will probably find that they are heavily grazed. The presence of thick/tall vegetation in the desert tells you where the water is.

There is an example of a desert river where there is a small amount of green vegetation but no shade from any trees:


and even if there are a few trees around they don't offer any protection from the midday sun:

Where do you live? Out here, the hottest time of day isn't mid-day, but around 4 or 5 in the afternoon when the sun is not directly over head.

Are you sure, the most direct sunlight is usually around midday (most UV radiation) and the temperature is close to the daily max at that time too (within a couple of degrees centigrade).

that the deepest pools are the coolest

Yeah, that's certainly one of the pieces you are making up. Perhaps you are thinking of lakes where thermal stratification can take place? Streams don't work that way. The temperature of the water is uniform throughout unless you have groundwater seeps.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

desert fish have evolved to withstand desert conditions including warm water and some species can even survive when the water completely disappears.

There certainly are fish that have evolved as you state. There are also plenty of non-desert fish in desert streams. I'm also not sure that there is a desert fish that is consumed by humans. The fish in our streams are trout, and they are not tolerant of hot water, nor can they withstand drought. There are some trout species that were introduced, but there are also several species that are native to these streams and were doing fine until cows were introduced.

"Trout are usually found in cool (50–60 °F or 10–16 °C), clear streams and lakes" - Ah you are talking about trying to get non desert fish to survive and thrive in desert conditions, that's a much harder feat to accomplish and I wouldn't go blaming the cows so quickly when the desert conditions are the most likely cause of their death. You might find that the fish die even when the river banks are completely fenced off. I would focus on reintroducing desert fish that have evolved to withstand the desert conditions and are good eating instead, I am sure there are some tasty desert species that have yet to make it regularly onto my dinner plate.

[Witis]

I have never indicated that taste is a valid justification for killing any plant or creature; "because they taste good" has been used by you, Niya, FunkyD, and many others in an attempt to falsely justify your consumption of chickens and cows.

You use it to justify eating fish.

Nope, I have never used taste as a justification for eating any animal. In the case of fish I outlined that fish continue to grow until they die so that if you made a robotic fish it would continue to eat and grow until it takes over the universe or dies trying hence fish represent a threat to the safety of the universe.

You also appear to justify killing plants, which are necessarily innocent. I guess you never said that you liked the taste of vegetables, so perhaps you don't kill them because they taste good.

I have already indicated that I do not condone killing plants and that I eat mushrooms which have a rootstock that is preserved between seasons and tomatoes. Are you perhaps referring to annuals such as peas and vegetables that grow below ground such as carrots, onions, carrots, and parsnips? They are usually annuals or biennials: "A biennial plant is a flowering plant that takes two years to complete its biological lifecycle.[1] In the first year the plant grows leaves, stems, and roots (vegetative structures), then it enters a period of dormancy over the colder months. Usually the stem remains very short and the leaves are low to the ground, forming a rosette. Many biennials require a cold treatment, or vernalization, before they will flower. During the next spring or summer, the stem of the biennial plant elongates greatly, or "bolts". The plant then flowers, producing fruits and seeds before it finally dies" (Wiki). So those plants only have a natural lifecycle of 1-2 years i.e. they are not killed by humans.

[Niya]

Ah, you seem to think that you have a reasonable chance of getting away with your chicken and cow murders. I am not so optimistic re your chances especially as time nears infinity. ☹

Well I won't live forever so I think I can safely enjoy beef until I die. Infinity can pucker up and kiss my....well you know...

[Shaggy Hiker]

There is an example of a desert river where there is a small amount of green vegetation but no shade from any trees:

Yeah, that's a river. We don't have any of that size. It did occur to me that you may be thinking of large rivers where riparian vegetation can't cover the stream. Those are a pretty small portion of the total, but in those cases, cows probably have little direct impact.

Are you sure, the most direct sunlight is usually around midday (most UV radiation) and the temperature is close to the daily max at that time too (within a couple of degrees centigrade).

Yes. Daily max temperatures out here are as I stated.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

I think you have no idea, so we can certainly agree to disagree.

"Trout are usually found in cool (50–60 °F or 10–16 °C), clear streams and lakes" - Ah you are talking about trying to get non desert fish to survive and thrive in desert conditions, that's a much harder feat to accomplish and I wouldn't go blaming the cows so quickly when the desert conditions are the most likely cause of their death.

Right. We put the fish there.... That's just not the case. The trout and salmon were there for thousands or millions of years. The impact of man was to bring in the cows, not to bring in the fish, and the cows certainly had the impact I described.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'm not sure what to make of that second statement. Many of those annuals and bienniels are only that way because we moved them from their native habitat to somewhere else. My sister had potatos growing for years without replanting, and I've had carrots do the same (if they can survive the winter). Aside from that, it sounds like you eat no leafy vegetables (cabbage, lettuce, spinach, etc.), don't worry too much about eating the seeds of the plant, and justify the rest one way or another.

Your views on fish are just bizarre.

[Witis]

I agree with this statement. I rarely eat beef because the industry is evil, and the cows do so much damage. On the other hand, I occasionally eat shrimp, and there probably isn't a worse industry out there, so I'm a bit of a hypocrit in that regard.

Hmmm how often is rarely, and what about chickens Sharky, do you still eat them regularly?