VB6 is DEAD!

[Shaggy Hiker]

You're clearly a dab hand at this.

Do you think a mod will ofishially ban us ? I'm certainly not trying to upset anyone on porpoise.

Now you're going too far!

You may not be banned, but Funky may give you a cetaceon, just for that one alone. If this wasn't the first time, and he had docked you prior to this, then you might be fin-ished, cause you're making so many fish puns that you're giving this thread a bad tench (and forcing me to reach into the obscure species, as if you hadn't already).

[Shaggy Hiker]

You don't have to be a brain sturgeon to think up a fish pun, but it is certainly giving me a haddock.

That first one was used by Abbot and Costello, so to continue this theme, I'd have to ask if you might not be a fishtycian?

Before all this VB6/.NET nonsense, I felt that the only real divide in the programming community (aside from PC/Mac/Linux, which isn't programming, but OS) was between those who used VB and those who looked down on VB (C/C++ coders primarily). I felt that those of us in the VB community old enough to have been writing in the 90s were all using VB4/5/6 (and a few back to earlier versions), and then people moved on to .NET or didn't depending on what made sense for their particular situation. I did expect that there would be people who would not move on due to .NET being OO, as I have seen with C/C++ that there is a segment of the population that finds that transition as hard to grasp as an eel (and I have never found anything harder to grasp). Still, I didn't realize that there was any animosity in either direction. Where I work, my boss (who is writing his own language for web development, which is both amazing and FAR simpler than VB6...he's headed back closer to QBASIC, or even simpler) was still working in VB6 until very recently. He moves freely between VB6, VB.NET, C#, and various flavors of JS as the need and the mood finds him. He doesn't care which language I work in and just assumes that we will all use whatever we need for any particular task. We just don't end up discussing languages all that much...though to be perfectly fair, we don't end up discussing much of anything all that much as we are all off doing our own things.

So I knew that there were people still working with VB6, and I expected there would be people who found .NET difficult due to OO. What I hadn't realized was the depth of feeling about the subject. As I tried to state yesterday evening, in response to Olaf was that I feel that we make decisions based primarily on emotion rather than reason. I don't have a problem with that, because I think that we do things that way for very good reasons...which I'll spare you on, as this is already too long a post, but there is a drawback to making emotional decisions: Once we are emotionally invested in one thing over another, we lose the ability to make rational decisions on the subject (look into the research around gambling for some interesting examples of this). So, the danger when it comes to programming is that people will ALWAYS be emotionally invested in one language or another (or even in a hatred of programming, which we have seen even among programmers around here), and THAT will drive them.

One of the constant oddities of the human brain is once you decide one position is true, your brain will reinforce that belief. That's why I argue against the bit about native compilation being more secure that .NET compilation. That's patently absurd, since that clearly is nothing more than a very weak lock generally placed on the wrong door, yet it is trotted out repeatedly as a knock on .NET. It is clearly easier to decompile a .NET app over a VB6 app, but ease of decompilation has nothing to do with the incidence of theft. The only thing that relates to theft is whether there is sufficient perceived value to justify the cost (including the risk). It's that calculation that protects code. For code that is highly valuable, native compilation is not sufficiently secure. For code with no value, you could post the source in plain text on the internet and nobody would touch it. The programs that fall into the spot in between those two are vanishingly small, as numerous examples have shown. So, why is that argument brought out if it doesn't bear up to any logical examination? Because it reinforces the pattern that the brain has already established. It's essential to our survival that our brains work this way, but it also is the root of many of the ills of society, such as some gambling disorders, racism, the US political divide, managed stock funds, and much else.

[sten2005]

Where have you been all this time?

Gone fishing, obviously

Some of those puns are old, but some are not. Very nice contribution to this cod-dammed thread. I hope it spawns many replies and paints the thread redd.

What do you mean 'old' - they are all original. Nothing fishy about them

Statements like that, to be frank. Passive-aggressive behavior is designed to annoy people, so why be surprised when it does?

There certainly IS religious fervor around this issue, but it isn't just on one side. The VB6 posters miss no opportunity to deride those who moved to .NET or like .NET. Furthermore, of the .NET people in this thread, virtually all of them spent years in VB6 before they moved over.

I just couldn't let a word like "Proseletyzing" go without making a comment.
Seriously though, I have read much of this thread and it was just too bad tempered to get involved. There is really no need for it.
And, yes, it is on both sides (though I don't even understand why there are 'sides').

[Fatina]

Microsoft should dolphinately either update or open source VB6.

[Shaggy Hiker]

What do you mean 'old' - they are all original. Nothing fishy about them

Yeah, but there are a fair number of punsters around here (though you are a FINE example, I will say), and we worked over the fish theme in some thread a while back. A few fish puns are so obvious that they get trotted out whenever the subject turns to fish (like doing things for the halibut), but you and Colin really dug deep to bring up some new puns amid the cusks of the old. You spoke with a lot of sole, didn't flounder, and skated over the simple puns for the more obscure species.

I just couldn't let a word like "Proseletyzing" go without making a comment.
Seriously though, I have read much of this thread and it was just too bad tempered to get involved. There is really no need for it.
And, yes, it is on both sides (though I don't even understand why there are 'sides').

That may be about the best summary of the thread to date.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Microsoft should dolphinately either update or open source VB6.

Well, if they don't....will you whale?

[sten2005]

... but you and Colin really dug deep

I think the pun you are looking for is "plumbed the depths"

You spoke with a lot of sole, didn't flounder, and skated over the simple puns for the more obscure species.

It's always interesting to set the catfish among the pigeons (apologies to those who have to look up that idiom) and see who rises to the whitebait.
But I'm seriously running out of fish puns now.

[Shaggy Hiker]

[QUOTE=sten2005;4705331]I think the pun you are looking for is "plumbed the depths"
[QUOTE]
Yeah, some of those puns truly did that.

It's always interesting to set the catfish among the pigeons (apologies to those who have to look up that idiom) and see who rises to the whitebait.
But I'm seriously running out of fish puns now.

Are you sure it's not just your conscience bothering you? Perhaps you feel that the puns have trod upon the social morays of the site? Or have you just covered all the angles and are loach to continue?

[3com]

http://langpop.com/

[ColinE66]

Are you sure it's not just your conscience bothering you? Perhaps you feel that the puns have trod upon the social morays of the site? Or have you just covered all the angles and are loach to continue?

I think most of it was just posted inanga*

*thanks Google

[sten2005]

This plaice is just too funny.
I can't believe it is the same thread I started reading, everything seems to be going swimmingly now. It certainly has my seal of approval.

[ColinE66]

Indeed. And I wish it to be known that whatever language you prefer, you are not anemone of mine

[sten2005]

Yes. let's not get crabby.

[ColinE66]

?? I thought my olive branch would have been whelk-ome?

[sten2005]

?? I thought my olive branch would have been whelk-ome?

It certainly is.

I wasn't turtley concentrating when I said 'Let's not get crabby', it was manta to be addressed generally, not to you pacifically.

[3com]

This thread is losing its essence.

[sten2005]

This thread is losing its essence.

I doubt that, piscatorial essence does tend to linger.

[Shaggy Hiker]

This plaice is just too funny.
I can't believe it is the same thread I started reading, everything seems to be going swimmingly now. It certainly has my seal of approval.

Well, don't be all pinepedantic about it. We got off onto sushi a while back. Now we appear to be doing the whole fish, rather than just the slice.

[SJWhiteley]

Well, don't be all pinepedantic about it. We got off onto sushi a while back. Now we appear to be doing the whole fish, rather than just the slice.

Fin?

[RobDog888]

This thread is losing its essence.

Much like VB6

[axisdj]

Much like VB6

received some very exciting news yesterday regarding a replacement IDE and Compiler for vb6 projects. I will keep everyone posted as I am allowed to reveal the details. In the mean time you vb6 haters, continue on....

Thanks
Winston Potgieter

running countless light shows and radio stations with my vb6 written programs!

[axisdj]

Aww that's so cute.

shut me up, what type of apps do you write?

WP

[techgnome]

In the mean time you vb6 haters, continue on....

Now who's throwing stones? I don't recall ONCE anyone saying that they hated VB6... I know I certainly don't. It's just that I don't care for it. It doesn't fit my needs, so I've moved on. Doesn't mean I hate it. It just means I have selected a new tool to work with.

running countless light shows and radio stations with my vb6 written programs!

And I 'm sure that works for you (and I'll add that I think that's pretty cool, I've been considering doing something similar for fireworks) ... so what's the beef? VB6 still works. It's still working for you. It's not like someone has suddenly flipped a kill switch stopping all VB6 code. And that's not likely to happen either. What's likely to happen is that either Windows or the hardware at some point will no longer support some very basic functionality that will then stop VB6 apps from working correctly.

I suspect though that as long as the underlying architecture of Windows continues to be able to support the VB6 run time, VB6 apps will continue to run and thrive in the Windows ecosystem. Now, what may get harder is getting the IDE to run correctly, and finding third-party libraries/control suites that still work.

Starting to think: a development career is kind of like retirement investing... diversity is the key. Knowing and understanding multiple technologies, languages, techniques, patterns, etc... Most of us likely work with 2-3 different languages, and we'll need to swap out one or two over time to keep up with things. It's going to happen.

As I noted in another thread, when VB.NET falls apart (no, I don't hold any illusion that it's going to be around 20 years from now, or even 10 years - I know full well that it's going to have some kind of limited shelf-life, but as long as it is here, I'm going to ride it as long as I can) I'll have choices. I could parlay my .NET knowledge into C#... although the retraining of the muscle memory to type curly brackets and semicolons will slow me down, I can do it. I've done C# work before and I dabble in it from time to time just to keep up with things. If .NET goes completely away, I figure I have alternatives: Get into Proj Management (I don't think so), learn a new language based on where I'm working at the time, or I go into maintenance mode - just like there are a number of VB6 apps out there that still need to be maintained today, I'm sure there will be a number of .NET apps that will need the same kind of TLC until they are re-written in what neoteric lingua comes next. Or, maybe I'll just retire from programming and do something else (or in BASIC terms, I'll just GoSub without Return).

-tg

[techgnome]

shut me up, what type of apps do you write?

WP

I don't know what dday writes, but I work on enterprise level systems. My current job deals with a constituent management relations system that includes fundraising and all kinds of other things. Our market is the non-profits. Salvation Army, American Heart Association, ASPCA, Girls and Boys Town, and hundreds others. Before that, I worked for a construction company where the system I worked on allowed the tracking of all their projects, costs, over/underruns and enabled mining of the data to get more accurate bids out on future projects. Again, it was an enterprise level type of system. Before that again, I worked on a system that allowed our clients to track their customers and billing for deregulated commodity utilities - gas, water, electricity, etc. Again, it's still enterprise level type of stuff.

To be fair, I think sometimes the smaller, more utilitarian type of apps, like yours are more impressive than stuff like what I work on. I know it's not something I could do... at least not at the moment, maybe if I had the time, equipment, and desire, I could... Ihave none ofthose, which is why my fireworks one has never materialized. At the end of the day it's about getting the job done.

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

And now we see the downside of removing that delay: DDay DDouble PPosting.

As a hobby, I was working with controling hardware using a robotic brain board connecting via serial across bluetooth. The brain itself was distributed across several different systems intercommunicating via UDP. I've now gotten too involved with something else, but the one thing that really did show me is that the world we live in has more than three dimensions (not counting time, if you call that a dimension). There have to be a couple more. Since physics holds that there should be 8, 11, or some larger number, that works fine. We only perceive three dimensions just as my robot only perceived two. Our perception of reality is N-dimensions as they map into three.

[szlamany]

...However, I'm currently working on a compiler. Not to create the next best programming language, but for educational purposes. It's rough right now though, not because of my lack of knowledge with the programming language rather the lack of knowledge on the topic of compiler design.

I've seen other threads by you on this topic - and I have a suggestion.

Back in my early programming career (1980 to be exact) - we had our own homegrown database - and it had field names just like MS SQL. It did not have any kind of formula ability - so I created that.

You could type in (SomeField+SomeOtherField) / SomeThingy and it would evaluate that.

To do that you need to first parse it into some kind of middle-of-the-road object like representation - look at reverse polish notation and you will easily be able to turn that into.

Divide
SomeThingy
Plus
SomeOtherField
SomeField

This introduces OPERANDS and OPERATORS. From the bottom up that will calculate - leaving the results on the stack so to say.

Then you turn that into a linked executable set of instructions. Linked means that those VARIABLE OPERATOR's are connected to memory spots - in this case references to RECORDSET columns in some kind of .Net dataset.

Now you write an execution process that eat the LINKED EXECUTABLE and runs it against a row of data - producting a result.

See if you can do that. I would imagine that's less then 8 hours of coding - lots of research.

I was going to find some old code from a post in 2005 - and that's what led to this post in forum feedback about how attachments will not download properly in IE

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...t-downloadable

Regardless - find that old thread and you will find code that does exactly what I'm talking about. If you can download it

[jayinthe813]

After reading those scathing comments on the blog post all I can think is those vb6 guys take their language very seriously, lol.

I have never used vb6 extensively so I do not "get" why everyone hates .NET as it is all I have really known. It seems to pretty much solve a business need in my line of work, and to that regard, the business does not readily care "how" or in "what" it is written as long as it solves for their need.

I could see, however, a system that handles hundreds of thousands of transactions where a business would be hesitant to just "upgrade" from VB6. I cant imagine what kind of business would OK an application like that to be written in VB6 anyways (but maybe I am just being ignorant). This is why we still have COBOL mainframes going strong where I work, but they are so limited in their implementations that we have to supplement it with macros and side applications.

[jayinthe813]

As I noted in another thread, when VB.NET falls apart (no, I don't hold any illusion that it's going to be around 20 years from now, or even 10 years - I know full well that it's going to have some kind of limited shelf-life, but as long as it is here, I'm going to ride it as long as I can) I'll have choices.
-tg

Popular legend says "640K [memory] ought to be enough for anybody", so maybe I cant predict the future, but I think that .NET (VB,C#) is going to be here to stay for a while. And if a feature is missing or they need to expand more or add capability to .NET they are just going to spec it into the next framework. I cant see them abandoning VB.NET unless they provide a viable alternative (meaning BASIC, not meaning C#).

I would like to see them now (if even possible, my wishlist):

• Modify Winforms for a sleeker UI. Take some of the best qualities in WPF and add it into WinForms. Maybe add some work-flow styling, better controls, better animations. I know WPF exists, but why not create a way without XAML. I guess I should just be learning WPF. I think WinForms should lose the battleship gray look and move more Metro/modern. Why should we buy components that look nice for WinForms, why cant it just be included?

• Faster framework (.NET native I saw is coming soon I think).

• Buy Xamarin and incorporate their technology across the board. Visual Studio is now a one-stop shop and can now design apps for iOS and Android. Again, VB.NET for both Android and iOS. No one has Windows phone.

[techgnome]

Popular legend says "640K [memory] ought to be enough for anybody",

Actually, it's a myth. It was never said. At least in the context in which everyone quotes it.

so maybe I cant predict the future, but I think that .NET (VB,C#) is going to be here to stay for a while. And if a feature is missing or they need to expand more or add capability to .NET they are just going to spec it into the next framework. I cant see them abandoning VB.NET unless they provide a viable alternative (meaning BASIC, not meaning C#).

But that's the crux of those in the VB6 camp... to them (for a variety of reasons, some of which I'll admit are legit, others not so much) VB.NET ISN'T an alternative. And in some instances, they're right. There was a jump in the evolution in the language, and what's missing is the Missing Link that smooths the transition between them. Moving from VB6 to .NET is a huge change. I know that on more than once occasion the recomendation on moving frm one to the other is to treat it like you're learning a new language. In effect it was. Some people embraced it, some didn't. Some resist it. Again, it is for a variety of reasons, some are legit, others are just because they like making noise and don't want to change.

I would like to see them now (if even possible, my wishlist):

• Modify Winforms for a sleeker UI. Take some of the best qualities in WPF and add it into WinForms. Maybe add some work-flow styling, better controls, better animations. I know WPF exists, but why not create a way without XAML. I guess I should just be learning WPF. I think WinForms should lose the battleship gray look and move more Metro/modern. Why should we buy components that look nice for WinForms, why cant it just be included?

• Faster framework (.NET native I saw is coming soon I think).

• Buy Xamarin and incorporate their technology across the board. Visual Studio is now a one-stop shop and can now design apps for iOS and Android. Again, VB.NET for both Android and iOS. No one has Windows phone.

I would just like like to see things compile down to a level making the framework unnecessary. They got closer with the client profile versions, but I've never been able to built a project that relies on just that.

That's not true, JMcIlhinney does

And Brad apparently.

-tg

[jayinthe813]

Actually, it's a myth. It was never said. At least in the context in which everyone quotes it.


But that's the crux of those in the VB6 camp... to them (for a variety of reasons, some of which I'll admit are legit, others not so much) VB.NET ISN'T an alternative. And in some instances, they're right. There was a jump in the evolution in the language, and what's missing is the Missing Link that smooths the transition between them. Moving from VB6 to .NET is a huge change. I know that on more than once occasion the recomendation on moving frm one to the other is to treat it like you're learning a new language. In effect it was. Some people embraced it, some didn't. Some resist it. Again, it is for a variety of reasons, some are legit, others are just because they like making noise and don't want to change.


I would just like like to see things compile down to a level making the framework unnecessary. They got closer with the client profile versions, but I've never been able to built a project that relies on just that.


And Brad apparently.

-tg

Somehow I dont think it was a huge jump for me to go from vba to vb.net, but I know vba is not vb6.

Making the framework unnecessary is a good point. I think I last read that they are no longer going to do client profile versions.

[FunkyDexter]

And Brad apparently.

And me. All the cool kids are doing it.

[FunkyDexter]

I aim to please


...


<pregnant pause>


...


what about now?

[kleinma]

That's not true, JMcIlhinney does

As do I (Nokia 928 running 8.1 developer preview). I carry an android phone as well. The Windows phone is actually a really nice OS. It is mostly lack of apps that brings it down a notch against the competition. However it does do some things natively that even my android phone can't do (like screen cast my phone to any browser). Then of course there is the camera. I never take pictures with my android phone, since the nokia ones usually look twice as good. 8.1 added cortana, which works well and is the same concept as google now (more than it is like siri). It still definitely needs some work, but it is still a really nice phone.

[FunkyDexter]

I struggled to work out how to do things on my android phone. The Windows one feels alot more instinctive some how. I think that's probably because I've already climbed the Windows learning curve on my home PC but then again I've owned an Android phone longer than I've had Windows 8.1 on my PC. Mind you, I'm more inclined to "explore" on my pc than I am on a phone so it's hard to judge.

From an overall usability point of view the windows phone has left me with much chuffedness.

[Shaggy Hiker]

and what's missing is the Missing Link that smooths the transition between them.

-tg

Well, I HAVE been called the Missing Link a few times, and I did find the transition pretty smooth, so perhaps you are right. Maybe that's my role in life.

[jayinthe813]

I go way back with Windows phones. I actually had the T-Mobile Dash with Windows Mobile 6. I liked that phone except for a lot of the shortcomings that Windows Mobile had. For instance, I remember if you had a lot of text messages the phone would freeze when you tried to delete them. It was like MS cobbled something together technical and forgot the user experience. I imagine why this is why iOS took off.

I had a windows phone as a loaner a few months ago. You could tell they put a lot of thought into it. I thought the animations were a really nice touch and the entire OS was very snappy. Windows Phone is very simple and clean compared to all the bloat that generally comes with Android (samsung apps, etc). I like the way you install and manage applications on the phone, much easier than Android. Text messaging was also great on it.

However, the lack of apps make the phone near unusable for a lot of what I want to do. A lot of the apps weren't even in English. This sole reason alone made me not buy into the phone. There is not enough development going on for it, and there is so much stuff on XDA for Android. Android is so far ahead than where WP is right now. I have an app that compiles apps on android. You can literally code an android app on the phone. Unbelievable.

[Shaggy Hiker]

So....what apps do you use?

One of the things that has kept me from getting into the smartphone thing is: I can't think of anything I'd want to use a phone for other than making phone calls. I can see the advantage to lots of people of having a pretty good camera on a phone, but even then it wouldn't be the right tool for my lifestyle (I go with waterproof, LONG battery-life, cameras). So...what I want to do is make phone calls.

The one app that I saw a use for back in the days of PDA's was a categorical shopping list. I looked at several freeware ones that were out there, and didn't really like the features in any of them, so I wrote my own...and then PDA's went extinct. I don't feel that a shopping list is sufficient justification for getting a smartphone (though it's close). So, what else is out there that's useful? In short: I'm not so much asking what you have, but what you actually use?

[jayinthe813]

So....what apps do you use?

One of the things that has kept me from getting into the smartphone thing is: I can't think of anything I'd want to use a phone for other than making phone calls. I can see the advantage to lots of people of having a pretty good camera on a phone, but even then it wouldn't be the right tool for my lifestyle (I go with waterproof, LONG battery-life, cameras). So...what I want to do is make phone calls.

The one app that I saw a use for back in the days of PDA's was a categorical shopping list. I looked at several freeware ones that were out there, and didn't really like the features in any of them, so I wrote my own...and then PDA's went extinct. I don't feel that a shopping list is sufficient justification for getting a smartphone (though it's close). So, what else is out there that's useful? In short: I'm not so much asking what you have, but what you actually use?

I do more text messaging than I do phone calling. I use swype as well as the samsung swype-alternative. It makes sending texts and writing on phones a whole lot easier (I have fat fingers). This was one thing I found hard to get used to, tapping one key at a time on WP. I enjoy AdBlock Plus for ad-free web browsing. There is nothing worse than a million plastered ads on mobile sites. I use My Fitness Pal to track what I eat and Endomondo to track all my workouts, calories burned, GPS logging and map view while working out. I like Streamie to watch Justin.TV and Twitch.TV streams if I am bored or in a waiting room. I like having what remains of Flash for certain websites that require it. I like being able to download different software launcher apps and change the layout of my screens. Google Now tells me what the best way to and from work is every day, how bad traffic is, if my team won last night, and more.

I am sure WP will solve for a lot of this in the future. I like being able to have capability to do what I want when I need it. For example, lets say I am not sure if I should buy an item when shopping, I know I can download an app to scan barcodes, see prices, and see reviews all in one app. WP was lackluster in the app department entirely. It is very minimal to begin with, then very minimal in its app market.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Ok, that's pretty interesting. I haven't done texting, but then again, I still have a flip phone, so it would be painful. Most of the rest seems interesting, except this one:

I use My Fitness Pal to track what I eat

Current phones don't have enough memory for me to do that.

[homer13j]

So....what apps do you use?

One of the things that has kept me from getting into the smartphone thing is: I can't think of anything I'd want to use a phone for other than making phone calls.

I used to have the same attitude until I actually got one (Android). Now I use IHeartRadio to listen to right-wing talk radio at work where AM reception is impossible. And Google maps helps (with the traffic overlay) when there's bad traffic on my primary route to/from work.

Now I'm constantly checking scores, ebay, finding the cheapest gasoline price, weather & radar, and I use an app called "Backpacker GPS trails" to track my off-road excursions on my dirt bike.

Lately I've been using Trulia to search for properties for sale. You can scan the map for properties matching your search criteria then click on the details.

Don't use the camera much unless I'm without my Nikon D3300.

And of course I have the Fort Wayne Historical Society's app for tracking the movements of Nickel Plate #765.