VB6 is DEAD!

[Witis]

Ah although sometimes one has to move backwards in order to move forwards.

[Witis]

Which is an old zen proverb btw.

[Witis]

zen, like Invader Zim?

Which parts of zen are like zim?

[Shaggy Hiker]

The z part, of course.

[Witis]

Anything else?

[Witis]

and now you almost have me convinced.

[dclamp]

Real G's move in silence like lasagna

[Shaggy Hiker]

Well, it SHOULD be silent, like the p in pool.

[RobDog888]

Ah although sometimes one has to move backwards in order to move forwards.

So your saying moving from VB6 to .NET is going backwards but now next step is to move forward? (vNext?)

[Shaggy Hiker]

Paint it black.

[SJWhiteley]

Paint it black.

Damn, I just created a VB6 native code compiler, yesterday (yes, 64 bit and all) but it was all in blue, so I just decided to trash it.

[Shaggy Hiker]

You may have actually gotten that reference, but I barely did. I seem to remember some event where Steve Jobs poured a can of black paint on a computer as part of some promotion of NeXT systems.

[Witis]

So your saying moving from VB6 to .NET is going backwards but now next step is to move forward? (vNext?)

Sort of, try reversing back to XP and Visual Studio 6.0, and then going forwards but this time by growing those architectures and avoiding vista and .net.

[3com]

My firts stuff

[dclamp]

Ustedes habas en Espanol. Muy bien mijo.

I wish I was fluent in Spanish... Learning slowly but surely. I need to move to Spain or Mexico for a year

[Schmidt]

Sort of, try reversing back to XP and Visual Studio 6.0, and then going forwards but this time by growing those architectures and avoiding vista and .net.

Exactly.

vNext is not "a step forward" it's backpaddling to "things that have worked and still work well" (native compilation, no VM).

Convinced C++ Developers are simply shaking their heads about all those "explorers in .NET-land",
who wasted time, money and efforts with "things they were sold as fashionable" -
(despite MS not using .NET for all their critical products - just to give you one other reason,
why some people never "moved on").

Amazing, that the guys who were fooled, always paint those who recognized this MS-foolishness
early (skipping the whole adventure), as "backward-oriented and slow idiots", incapable of "progress" -
not even now recognizing, that "the emperor was naked all the time".

Well, mostly those who are manipulated, recognize at least "that something is wrong,
smells fishy" - and that's the insecurity dilettante (rightly) pointed out.

It shows in over-proportionate aggressiveness (which has its roots in insecurity) -
and it shows in "defending the manipulator" (an automatic protection-mechanism,
to avoid admitting "being manipulated" to oneself).

Just some stuff to think about in "silent contemplation"...

Olaf

[3com]

Ustedes habas en Espanol. Muy bien mijo.

I wish I was fluent in Spanish... Learning slowly but surely. I need to move to Spain or Mexico for a year

Or Catalonia, it's the best, si señor.

I come from Colombian but living in Catalonia (many, many years ago), I do not say how many, because there is somebody claiming about grandfathers on board.

By other side...

While we’re looking forward, it’s also good to look at one of the current strengths of .NET. There are currently 1.8 billion active installs of .NET

Uhmn... pretty open source involve with net lately, that's nice.

source: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archi...px#_.NET_vNext

[Shaggy Hiker]

Exactly.

vNext is not "a step forward" it's backpaddling to "things that have worked and still work well" (native compilation, no VM).

Convinced C++ Developers are simply shaking their heads about all those "explorers in .NET-land",
who wasted time, money and efforts with "things they were sold as fashionable" -
(despite MS not using .NET for all their critical products - just to give you one other reason,
why some people never "moved on").

Amazing, that the guys who were fooled, always paint those who recognized this MS-foolishness
early (skipping the whole adventure), as "backward-oriented and slow idiots", incapable of "progress" -
not even now recognizing, that "the emperor was naked all the time".

Well, mostly those who are manipulated, recognize at least "that something is wrong,
smells fishy" - and that's the insecurity dilettante (rightly) pointed out.

It shows in over-proportionate aggressiveness (which has its roots in insecurity) -
and it shows in "defending the manipulator" (an automatic protection-mechanism,
to avoid admitting "being manipulated" to oneself).

Just some stuff to think about in "silent contemplation"...

Olaf

That's just a whole mass of self-righteous nonsense intended to puff yourself up by insulting others. Sure, you can look at the past and decide that your decision was the right one and that it means that you were smart enough to see the future. Try knowing what is coming BEFORE it happens rather than after. Of course, in this case, it's a small minority that thinks the way you do, while the rest don't feel fooled at all.

Regardless of that, at the time that .NET was created, an interpreted byte-code language was dominating the discussion of the future of programming. The language, of course, was Java. Sun offered it up for international standardization, MS did with it as both MS and Borland had done with C++ (adding some proprietary extensions unique to their compiler), and Sun got huffy and pulled the language out of standardization so that they could control what was in and out. At the time, there was plenty of talk in the trade journals that Java was going to replace not just other languages, but Windows (with a web-based OS). Java was talked about as heading towards the holy grail of a write-once, run-anywhere language that would make the OS and the hardware irrelevant. So, was anybody surprised that MS came out with a language that copied many of the things that Java had? Do you remember all the talk in the early days of .NET where a JIT compiler would be written for all kinds of different OS and hardware (including dedicated hardware)?

I'd like to see a truly native compiled .NET, but if you are seriously saying that you knew all along that by this year Java wouldn't have lived up to the promise that it had, and that MS wouldn't move .NET to the platforms that it was talking about...well good for you. You took a guess and were kind of right, but mostly just as wrong. You've bet on a horse that has now been shot. Were you smart enough to see that coming?

[Carlos Rocha]

That's just a whole mass of self-righteous nonsense intended to puff yourself up by insulting others.

Insulting others? where the hell did you see the insult? The whole thread is full of .NUTs trying to put down who didn't follow MS orders to eat what they want. It was not futurology, is was just good sense.
It's amazing how Chit Chat threads about VB6 become so full of .NET addicts just to talk bad and ridiculize who wants to keep Classic VB alive, and I can point you LOTS of insulting and bad behavior from such members, but I don't think I need to. Why didn't you talk about fish instead?

[Schmidt]

That's just a whole mass of self-righteous nonsense ...

Because?
See, I've already brought the reference to the Anderson-tale:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emp...se_as_an_idiom

And BTW, what you just did is listed under: "The Courtiers Reply":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Courtier%27s_Reply

...intended to puff yourself up by insulting others.

Nah, come on ... where was the insult?
What shoe did you choose to put on (aka why do you *feel* insulted)?

I mean, I've calmly explained just my point of view... if you think that I'm utterly wrong,
then there's no reason to feel insulted - just laugh at me - or label me "backwards" or
"unwilling to learn new things" or just "VB-cry-baby" or whatever creative (and of
course non-insulting) attribute for a VB6-developer comes to mind *this* day.

Sure, you can look at the past and decide that your decision was the right one ...

That's not the point.

...and that it means that you were smart enough to see the future. Try knowing what is coming BEFORE

And that also is an allegation and was not the point.

There's a whole lot of other VB6-devs like me, who simply decided what they thought was right for them
to do (at that point in the past) - and "unwillingness to learn new things" or even more ridiculous:
"fear of OOP-concepts" was the least, believe me.

Most of us wanted to use a (simple to feed) native-compiler further - MS supported
the (fullblown) concept for C++ developers further in all those years, and preferred
native compilation themselves in their products - so there was nothing wrong
apparently, in using the concept ourselves.

[a long-winded explanation about Java and VM-based concepts...]

And no, Java didn't really appeal to me either (for the same reasons) - otherwise I'd
have supported concepts like Jabaco (VB6-Code to Java-ByteCode) and "moved on"...

You've bet on a horse that has now been shot. Were you smart enough to see that coming?

I've not bet on anything - I've just made a decision not to use some technological
concepts I had no use for and never liked.

Instead I've decided to use the compiler (I was already happy with) further -
and invested my time into things which I considered to have more long-term-
value, should MS decide to not support VB6-compiled Apps on future OSes...

Sometimes the decision "to wait until some things become more clear" is not
unwise, you know?
What I'm pointing out to you is simply, that I cannot understand why you
*still* mark people who made such a decision, as "living in the past" -
*especially* after experiencing all those confusing decisions and the latest
back-paddling maneuvers on the part of MS over the last years and months.

If somebody is apparently acting confused, then it would be a fault to
follow along unquestioningly (as you prove yourself, by not adopting
the Metro-concepts wholeheartedly, when I look at the posting-count
there) - many VB6-developers simply started a few years earlier, to act
reasonable, waiting things out, before investing time into "adventurous
things".

Olaf

[dilettante]

We can't all be the computer wizards these .Net guys are.

After all we haven't even tried to type a bunch of 1s and 0s into Notepad, save as EXE, then try to run it. They're just such geniuses!

[Schmidt]

We can't all be the computer wizards these .Net guys are.

After all we haven't even tried to type a bunch of 1s and 0s into Notepad, save as EXE, then try to run it. They're just such geniuses!

Yeah, noticed that too - but hesitated to post "something funny" - since it seems to be a
good (and hard defended) tradition here (even in Chit-Chat), to reserve all the "fun" for an
exclusive inner circle: (real technical expertise insignificant - just *claim* that you speak
"a dozen languages", already *heard* about async/await, generics and lambdas, then
make some fun-remarks about VB6-dinosaurs, post dozens of fish- or bait-pictures,
place at least 1000 postings in the post-race-thread, and eh-voila:
get your "welcome to the club"-sticker.

Come on boys - give us some allowance to make some fun of you for a change... say,
for any 10 "using VB6-is-soo-ridiculous" postings we endure, we earn an official voucher
for just one single "let's make some fun of the .NET-guys" in return ... deal?
(I'd think we have gathered some 100-200 already in the meantime, but not sure -
would it be even more vouchers dile? - not that long aboard to make a good guess)...

Olaf

[Nightwalker83]

After all we haven't even tried to type a bunch of 1s and 0s into Notepad, save as EXE, then try to run it. They're just such geniuses!

You mean dday9 didn't attempt it as suggested here?

[Niya]

The whole thread is full of .NUTs trying to put down who didn't follow MS orders to eat what they want. It was not futurology, is was just good sense.

This is why nobody should be taking you guys seriously. That statement reads like something a child would write.

[Niya]

Yeah, noticed that too - but hesitated to post "something funny" - since it seems to be a
good (and hard defended) tradition here (even in Chit-Chat), to reserve all the "fun" for an
exclusive inner circle: (real technical expertise insignificant - just *claim* that you speak
"a dozen languages", already *heard* about async/await, generics and lambdas, then
make some fun-remarks about VB6-dinosaurs, post dozens of fish- or bait-pictures,
place at least 1000 postings in the post-race-thread, and eh-voila:
get your "welcome to the club"-sticker.

Pray tell. Who are the members of this clique ?

[Schmidt]

Well, to make my idea with the vouchers work, we should perhaps introduce
from yesterday onward, an official and rolling counter for:

[Insults]: 1 (#281)

Well, thinking about it, a counter for:

[Didn't get it]: 1 (#281)

is also a good idea...

And of course a counter for:

[Playing dumb]: 1 (#282)

And to be prepared and well-covered, we cannot forget a counter for the:

[Make-Fun-Pictures]: 0

...Niya will start posting soon (believe me guys, he always does)...



Olaf

[Schmidt]

And of course a counter for:

[Playing dumb]: 1 (#282)

Think I have to post a correction, since "playing dumb" could be misunderstood
by our impartial moderators (who will surely not close this thread soon, just
because a few VB6ers were starting having fun since a few posts, will you?).

So I take it back, since it also doubles a bit with our official [Didn't get it]
counter.

So, here's the correction for the current standing:

[Insults]: 1 (#281)
[Didn't get it]: 2 (#281, #282)
[Make-Fun-Pictures]: 0


Olaf

[Shaggy Hiker]

Nah, come on ... where was the insult?
What shoe did you choose to put on (aka why do you *feel* insulted)?

I mean, I've calmly explained just my point of view... if you think that I'm utterly wrong,
then there's no reason to feel insulted - just laugh at me - or label me "backwards" or
"unwilling to learn new things" or just "VB-cry-baby" or whatever creative (and of
course non-insulting) attribute for a VB6-developer comes to mind *this* day.

But you are NOT utterly wrong. You have a rational view and post some good stuff which is well supported. You're clearly quite a capable and knowledgeable programmer. What drives me crazy is that you can't seem to resist adding swipes at people to otherwise good posts. That particular post labeled all .NET programmers as misguided fools. You talked about the C++ programmers "shaiking their heads at ...those who wasted their time and money...etc." Are we to assume that those C++ programmers were actually idiots who couldn't comprehend the wisdom of people who wasted their time and money? Are we to assume that those C++ programmers were shaking their heads not in disbelief, but in some kind of ecstatic frenzy?

No, probably not, since in the very next sentence you described .NET programmers as being those fooled by MS-foolishness. So, how could anybody see that as anything other than snidely condescending? And to what end?


That's not the point.

There's a whole lot of other VB6-devs like me, who simply decided what they thought was right for them
to do (at that point in the past) - and "unwillingness to learn new things" or even more ridiculous:
"fear of OOP-concepts" was the least, believe me.

That's clearly true. I never thought you, in particular were even hesitant about OOP (nor Carlos, for that matter), I do think it's a valid reason to be hesitant about moving from a non-OOP language to an OOP language, as they are quite different in structure, but I didn't think it was your concern. I also agree that there are lots of VB6 devs like you, who feel that MS should have gone in a different direction. Depending on what that other direction happened to be, I may or may not agree with you. However, it doesn't mean that all the people, like me, who switched to .NET and gladly discarded VB6 once we realized what .NET had to offer are simple fools deluded by MS. Just as the VB6 afficianados can't agree as to what features are essential to a new version, those who moved to .NET probably had all kinds of different motivations, as well. For my part, I was forced into it because VB6 didn't work for PDAs (not counting eVB, which wasn't VB and really really sucked). Once I got into it a little bit, I was so happy with it I never used VB6 again. I didn't remain with one foot in each boat, I just moved over and didn't look back. Does that make me a deluded fool that all those wise C++ coders shake their heads at? Probably not.

Sometimes the decision "to wait until some things become more clear" is not
unwise, you know?

That's true. Of course, .NET in the modern version (discounting 2002 and 2003, as they were a different form of animal), has now been around longer than VB4/5/6 were actively being advanced, so...you can't wait forever. .NET will also die, just as VB6 did (and 4 and 5 before it). As long as the sole reason you are waiting is not to say "I told you so," and as long as you can progress personally in that time, the you should do as you want. What else you said, including not liking Java, I fully agree with. I don't really care about native code, but it DOES have some benefits that would be of value to me...though minor value, frankly, but that's just my situation. So, if .NET compiled to native code, all the better, but since it doesn't, it doesn't bother me much.

What I'm pointing out to you is simply, that I cannot understand why you
*still* mark people who made such a decision, as "living in the past" -
*especially* after experiencing all those confusing decisions and the latest
back-paddling maneuvers on the part of MS over the last years and months.

I try not to mark people as living in the past for sticking with VB6. Until axisdj started the various threads he started, I had no idea that there was any particular passion around those who used VB6 or .NET. I assumed that it was just a tool like any other tool. I have worked in several languages, as have you, and I expect to work in several more before I retire. I'd love it if there was one size that fit all, but I'm resigned to the fact that there is not and will not be, so I choose what I like and what I don't like, but they are all just tools that I can pick up and put down. I have no emotional attachment to them and expected others to feel the same way...with the exception of C++ coders looking down on VB coders, which is so trite that there are cartoons about it.

On the other hand, once I did see how much passion some people have about some particular language, I'd have to say that I find it kind of fascinating, which does lead me to write things that could be considered, "poking the nest." I still don't care about the languages, though, I'm interested in the viewpoints. Axisdj, for his part, explained himself quite well, and I see why he feels as he does. I don't agree with him, but his views come from a reasonable motivation. Fatina, on the other hand, has some issues. She refuses to say anything about why she is so passionate about VB6, which is especially odd because I'm getting the impression that she isn't, herself, a programmer.

In any case, I would say that by now the basis for all of these threads is mostly just stoking the fires.

[Schmidt]

But you are NOT utterly wrong. You have a rational view and post some good stuff which is well supported. You're clearly quite a capable and knowledgeable programmer. What drives me crazy is that you can't seem to resist adding swipes at people to otherwise good posts.

Glad you noticed - for the following, try keep in mind, that all of this is just part of our great:
"Let's have some fun about some .NET-guys for a change" ...experiment.

That particular post labeled all .NET programmers as misguided fools.

Exactly - but who cares about an *all*-attribute of being a bit "too broad a brush"
in a "let's have some fun" thread in Chit-Chat?

.NETers (for the most part) certainly don't, "whilst being at it"...

I try not to mark people as living in the past for sticking with VB6.

Yeah perhaps in the same way as I (so far) tried very hard, to not see "all .NETers deluded fools".

As long as the sole reason you are waiting is not to say "I told you so," and as long as you can progress personally in that time, the you should do as you want

Yeah of course.
At the time I ruled out .NET as a technology not to "move on to", I did that solely with
the purpose, to be able to come up a dozen years later with some kind of "I told you so"
remark, just to impress a few .NETers in a Forum, I didn't even know existed...

Until axisdj started the various threads he started, I had no idea that there was any particular passion around those who used VB6 or .NET.

Oh, really? Seriously, but this statement is a bit hard to believe - try again... <g>

On the other hand, once I did see how much passion some people have about some particular language, I'd have to say that I find it kind of fascinating, which does lead me to write things that could be considered, "poking the nest."

Nothing exactly wrong with that, but then don't complain when the poking is done
at your own expense for a change, ...as said - we're currently just experimenting
a bit, how well all this goes over when you sit at the receiving end.

Axisdj, for his part, explained himself quite well, and I see why he feels as he does. I don't agree with him, but his views come from a reasonable motivation. Fatina, on the other hand, has some issues. She refuses to say anything about why she is so passionate about VB6, which is especially odd because I'm getting the impression that she isn't, herself, a programmer.

I think I have a good idea who Fatina is - and no, if I'm right with my assumption,
she is (like many VB6-Developers) only "leap frogging" (in the sense of a "side-career") -
having a different academic background than "informatics" - and mainly using the tool
for her daily (scientific) job, to "get things done".

Aside from that, (as you should have noticed too, from the way she writes) - she's still
pretty young - and also not yet "battle hardened" in this kind of Forum-discussions.
Simply a passionate Newbie, who should be granted some "leeway" whilst defending her
decision to use a tool she apparently "fell in love with" because it served her well in her daily work.

Then she encounters you guys here, ganging up and ridiculing her, for her belief that
"MS would perhaps listen" (as a young "leap frogger" to VB6, not yet knowing all the
history which came before - and that there was only a very very slight chance for MS
to change their minds, regarding a political decision which was already made years earlier).


Olaf

[Niya]

Hold the phone here.....you guys actually believe Fatina is a she ? Don't buy that. Its some dude getting his rocks off by trolling us. Women for the most part aren't so effective at trolling.

[Carlos Rocha]

Women for the most part aren't so effective at trolling.

That's not my personal experience

[Schmidt]

Hold the phone here.....you guys actually believe Fatina is a she ?

Yep, quite sure that she didn't lie about that (to some 70% or so) - and if my guess is right,
then she's not only "pretty young" - but also "young and pretty" (not referring to the avatar,
but to a different image I've encountered elsewhere).

Olaf

[Schmidt]

Women for the most part aren't so effective at trolling.

That's not my personal experience

LOL, not exactly a singular one - I concur - thanks for sharing...

Olaf

[ident]

[dclamp]

Good ol' Fatina

[dclamp]

Edited my post.

[Niya]

Fatina

Fat ina

Fat tina...

Seems obvious to me.

If I told you guys I was a girl it would be just as convincing. "Niya" makes more sense as a girl's name after all. I could throw in a pic of a woman as an avatar for extra measure. Fatina is a guy that is trolling. I believe that 100%. Nice thing about online communities, anybody can be anybody.

I'm a big ol' troll myself and pretending to be a woman is something I've done successfully in the past. You wouldn't believe how gullible people can be online.

[Niya]

Yep, quite sure that she didn't lie about that (to some 70% or so) - and if my guess is right,
then she's not only "pretty young" - but also "young and pretty" (not referring to the avatar,
but to a different image I've encountered elsewhere).

Olaf

Though we almost never agree, I believe you're much too smart to be conned this easily.

[dclamp]

Wait. So are you a male or a female.

[Carlos Rocha]

IfI'm a big ol' troll myself

We had to agree on something, sooner or later