Visual Basic is a con !

[BecauseIcan]

[QUOTE=FunkyDexter;4388051]Oh I think I get it. By the way, if you've done anything that optimises the cuts (e.g. get as many doors as possible out of a single sheet of wood) then definitely wrap it up into an application because there's money in them there maths. It's quite easy to do in 1 dimension but once you get into 2 or more it's quite tricksy and there are alot of manufacturing companies out there who'll happily pay for it.

I have some of the math worked out for how many from board length/feet mostly right now it tells length, width, thickness and number to cut..ahh a love in progress.

[techgnome]

Actually Jmc is right. Option Strict On does slow you down. I write code with it off because its really breaks my flow when I have to CType and DirectCast everything. When I'm close to completing or actually finished with a specific class or set of classes I sometimes go back and place it on top of the code file and then clean up all the errors it catches. Surprisingly, they're not that many. Usually I get about 3 - 4 errors. Even when in my "flow" I have a habit of using DirectCast/CType, but sometimes I forgo it when I'm not sure I'm going to stick with a particular piece of code. I usually need to test it quickly and change it quickly and Option Strict On gets in my way in under these circumstances. My coding style can be described as "develop while I code". I keep a vague concept of what I want to achieve in my head and sculpt the code live. I can't afford to be stuttered by the IDE at that time. I can tolerate it when everything has been fleshed out and its just a matter of refactoring here, changing the name of a property there. You know, like tidying up.

I have the opposite philosophy... I'd rather be bugged by the IDE now when I'm coding and get it right. Even when I'm doing quick and dirty development. I hate having to go back and correct all the little things after the fact... to me, I'd rather spend 5 minutes up front getting the code clean than 15 minutes afterwards "correcting" it...

Just my style.

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

Actually Jmc is right. Option Strict On does slow you down. I write code with it off because its really breaks my flow when I have to CType and DirectCast everything. When I'm close to completing or actually finished with a specific class or set of classes I sometimes go back and place it on top of the code file and then clean up all the errors it catches. Surprisingly, they're not that many. Usually I get about 3 - 4 errors. Even when in my "flow" I have a habit of using DirectCast/CType, but sometimes I forgo it when I'm not sure I'm going to stick with a particular piece of code. I usually need to test it quickly and change it quickly and Option Strict On gets in my way in under these circumstances. My coding style can be described as "develop while I code". I keep a vague concept of what I want to achieve in my head and sculpt the code live. I can't afford to be stuttered by the IDE at that time. I can tolerate it when everything has been fleshed out and its just a matter of refactoring here, changing the name of a property there. You know, like tidying up.

The point I was getting at is that if you are in the habit of working with types correctly, you'd have a harder time working with them incorrectly, despite the extra typing. You didn't contradict that, you supported it. For you, the habit is working with Option Strict OFF, and you find it breaks your flow to do the type changes. If you are used to working with Option Strict ON, you'd probably have to stop and think before even noticing that there would be a shorter way without strict typing.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I have some of the math worked out for how many from board length/feet mostly right now it tells length, width, thickness and number to cut..ahh a love in progress.

The problem is a variation on the knapsack problem, in which case there is no direct mathematical solution. I think I have an old thread over in the .NET CodeBank that solved the problem using a genetic algorithm to seek an optimal solution (you can never be sure you have THE optimal solution). That one was also about filling orders based on various types of stock pieces. I forget whether it was wood, or pipe, or something else, though.

[BecauseIcan]

I will take a look at that
thanks Shaggy Hiker

[Poppa Mintin]

I'll tell you the one thing I can think of to get that out of the way. Writing structures. If given a structure like the bitmap file format header structure, VB6's Get and Put can read and write them as is. VB.Net requires a little more effort.

Hmmm.... Get and Put, is that like Peek and Poke ?

Ah, those were the days !



Poppa.

[Poppa Mintin]

Just wondering
In you opinion if you are a newbie why would or won't you start in vb.net? I read this thread everyday and now am questioning my decision to start with vb.net.

Have you ever actually read a How To on VB or just muddled through? It might not be a bad idea to work through something coherent and sequential. It might seem that some of it is cast below your level but there are definitely some fundamental concepts that you seem to have missed altogether. I'd suggest working through something like this:

http://www.homeandlearn.co.uk/net/vbnet.html

from start to finish. That should sort out some of the worst holes and then give you a better grounding to work from in future.

This was good advice... Thank you.

(Now I have to go out and buy a binder that'll hold at least 230 sheets of A4, printed on both sides ! )


Poppa.

[Poppa Mintin]

I am not a complete idiot. Some parts are still missing. .

There isn't a Smiley with a big enough grin !.

Pop.

[TysonLPrice]

...other than opening the ide in the morning

I use - Tools, Options, Startup, "At Startup" = "Show empty environment".

I don't care about all that other stuff...I just want to get to work.

[BecauseIcan]

This was good advice... Thank you.

(Now I have to go out and buy a binder that'll hold at least 230 sheets of A4, printed on both sides ! )


Poppa.

You won't be disappointed I promise. It is well worth the paper and binder. Great support

[techgnome]

Hmmm.... Get and Put, is that like Peek and Poke ?

Ah, those were the days !



Poppa.

Peek & Poke = Memory reads & writes...
Get & Put = File-based reads and writes...

So ... yeah, in a way, they are similar...

-tg

[Niya]

...is that like Peek and Poke ?

Oh you brought back some memories there chap....I remember being amazed at being able to turn on the Caps Lock using Peek/Poke. In those days such a thing was strictly the domain of gods(C/C++/ASM programmers). Turning on the Caps Lock from a baby language like QuickBasic made you feel a little godly.

[techgnome]

Ok... without looking it up... does anyone remember what TRON does and what it was used for? And no, the answer is not Light Cycles or Disc Wars.... Long before Flynn, TRON was command that did something specific... and even has a complementary.

-tg

[Niya]

TRON, Tron, hmm............Err...........There is something vaguely familiar about it but I just can't....Arrrg!! Imma have to Google that.

[EDIT]

Damn....I knew there was something familiar about. I came across it a couple times during the old days but I never used it as part of my development process. I can vaguely recalling reading it in some help or something.

[Jacob Roman]

Theres TRON and TROFF. It means Trace On, and Trace Off. And its used for finding errors or debugging. I used it in Amiga BASIC back in the day when I was 10 years old.

[Niya]

I came across it here:-


I always used to go digging around in the docs when I was young. There were so many strange commands, I think I only ever used about half of them. Certain functions were a little beyond me at such a young age. Tracing and things like ISAM tables were things I never played with but I would have definitely read about them and not understand a lick about what they meant some of the time.

[TysonLPrice]

You know you are getting old when please reminisce about basic or any PC oriented computer language. I got started on the IBM mainframe. First question someone thinking about buying a PC would ask is "why do I even need one". The internet just connected mainframes and many off the people here were in diapers or a gleam in thier Dad's eyes.

[Niya]

Lol those were the days! God I wish I still had old programs I wrote back in those times. It would be funny to see how much has changed in terms of coding style. I remember writing entire programs using nothing but global variables. My functions and subs NEVER had any parameters. I would use global variables to pass values into subs/functions. I was so young and foolish lol

[Jacob Roman]

The Amiga BASIC I used allowed you to have the program talk like a robot using the command SAY TRANSLATE$ statement and the string in quotes, only it must be written how it sounds.

[TysonLPrice]

Lol those were the days! God I wish I still had old programs I wrote back in those times. It would be funny to see how much has changed in terms of coding style. I remember writing entire programs using nothing but global variables. My functions and subs NEVER had any parameters. I would use global variables to pass values into subs/functions. I was so young and foolish lol

I'd take today's environment anytime. All the tools available, all the help on the internet and forums, turnaround time for changes, etc. To add a new text box label on the IBM mainframe on-line cobol program (CICS) you would.

1. Fill out the data sheet for the screen layout.
2. Make the changes to the map assembly and each position had to be accounted for.
3. Assemble the map and get it moved to the correct library.
4. Do a NEWCOPY so CICS knew you changed something.
5. Test it.

That opposed to just painting it on the screen and moving it around if you want.

It the classic "the good old days were not really that good"

[Niya]

Actually I find that the workload remains exactly the same. Big dog big flea.....The more that can be done, the more that gets demanded. Even bugs today are just as pesky as ever. Sure, we'd run rings around the problems of the old days with the tools we have today but today's problems are pesky for today's tools.

[JuggaloBrotha]

My two cents.

To me Visual Basic.Net only has the word basic in it to denote that the syntax is very similar (though has more keywords) to that of the original BASIC, it's not about whether a BASIC program written in 1980 would run on VB12/.Net 4.5 or not.

Also, I'm in favor of having Option Strict turned on up front, even if I'm doing some quick & dirty coding for something or testing an idea, it saves me more time thinking about the conversations and casting up front than fix it all after the fact. That and you're more able to avoid the unexpected outputs when the code you're testing runs because if you don't put the conversion code in, the compiler will & it may not put in what you intended.

[Niya]

Well I developed good habits in VB6 which had no Option Strict so I've never needed it and I've never actually made an error that Option Strict On would have prevented. Even with it off, I still do explicit conversions like 90% of the time. I like to freedom to choose not to use it for "quick and dirty" spurts.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Actually I find that the workload remains exactly the same. Big dog big flea.....The more that can be done, the more that gets demanded. Even bugs today are just as pesky as ever. Sure, we'd run rings around the problems of the old days with the tools we have today but today's problems are pesky for today's tools.

Good thing, too! If it was all that simple it wouldn't be all that much fun....and it wouldn't be a job worth having. You'd get your programs built at McCoders on your way to your job as an accountant.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Well I developed good habits in VB6 which had no Option Strict so I've never needed it and I've never actually made an error that Option Strict On would have prevented. Even with it off, I still do explicit conversions like 90% of the time. I like to freedom to choose not to use it for "quick and dirty" spurts.

I got to learn how dirty it was, and now I prefer to leave Option Strict ON all the time. It was years before I made a mistake that Option Strict would have prevented, but there were plenty of times I was using implicit conversions rather than explicit conversions, and those ended up being costly.

[Niya]

Good thing, too! If it was all that simple it wouldn't be all that much fun....and it wouldn't be a job worth having. You'd get your programs built at McCoders on your way to your job as an accountant.

lol.....The only annoyance is that today everything evolves at a faster rate than in the 90s. A certain tech, IDE or language could be viable for like 5-10 years in the 90s. Today, new stuff can become old stuff in as little as 2-3 years.

[Poppa Mintin]

Lol those were the days! God I wish I still had old programs I wrote back in those times.

I still have mine, Circa 1979 - 83, they're on their original cassette tapes (Remember tape recorders ?) I still have the 6520 based machine that I built in 1978, and I suspect it would still work if I had a monitor (or even an old BW TV, it could drive either... or both). Sadly however I don't have any documentation at all, I loaned it all to someone who promised to copy and return it... (Say no more !)

Back then I used to write little games for my son and his friends, which kept 'em busy for hours... I was an electronics design engineer up until about '73 when I broke away from that to become the electrical design engineer for an OEM machinery manufacturer, in Lancashire where my wife's accent was accepted... She was totally ignored by the people of Bury St. Edmonds, saying it would take 30 years for her to be accepted there... We didn't have 30 years to spare so we moved. (Oh! I digressed)

I used to make design changes to my machine, a major one being adding a whopping 4Kb to the RAM, which was originally 0.5Kb (in 10 off DILs of 100Bit Nibbles each.) Also I built an add-on module to increase the Baud rate of the tape recording and play-back from the original 110 baud to 8K baud... a non-standard rate, but very reliable. Adding an EPROM (I wonder what happened to my UV lamp!) ...with an Assembler was brilliant, it could download at 8k baud and assemble machine code from Assembler in a single pass. When the 6502c was released it just plugged straight in, no mods, (Oh... yeah, I had to glue a heat-sink onto it's back) but it was faster because the coding had been re-vamped and a lot of (always) redundant stuff on the original chip had been removed, and some new, extra instructions were added.

Anyone reading my coding of today may well wonder why I use variable names mostly of just a single letter, but when you were brought up with only 4.5Kb of usable RAM to store both the source code and the machine code, and all the variables at 'run time'... every byte was precious. Tell you what though... Switch on... Start using the machine... NO DELAY, except maybe, wait for the monitor to warm up ! Those were the days !

Poppa.

[Poppa Mintin]

The Amiga BASIC I used allowed you to have the program talk like a robot using the command SAY TRANSLATE$ statement and the string in quotes, only it must be written how it sounds.

Yeah, my family and I had a lot of fun the the BBC version of the same thing...

Poppa.

[Jacob Roman]

OMG come to think of it, the Amiga BASIC voice never died. Guess who still uses it....

Steven Hawkins! And yes you can control the pitch of the voice sound as well on the Amiga.

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah, my family and I had a lot of fun the the BBC version of the same thing...

I remember that from school. I got thrown out of class for making the computer say rude things about the teacher.

[techgnome]

OMG come to think of it, the Amiga BASIC voice never died. Guess who still uses it....

Steven Hawkins! And yes you can control the pitch of the voice sound as well on the Amiga.

The CGI for Bablylon5 was originally done on a "TV Toaster"... which was an Amiga on steroids...

I remember that from school. I got thrown out of class for making the computer say rude things about the teacher.

hehehe... during tech training, we were learning Assembly... buddy of mine got bored... programmed the Star Wars Imperial March song using Assembly... it was dead quiet when suddenly his computer started beeping out the tunes... it was hilarious...

-tg

[Jacob Roman]

Also the movie Toy Story was made on the Amiga. My brother has the Amiga 500, 1200, 2000, and 4000 along with the video toaster and 1000s of disks. The Amiga was way ahead of its time back then. Back when Nintendo was the thing, back when PCs were still beeping and squeeking, the Amiga 500 at only 7 MHz was pumping out killer sound, gorgeous 16 bit graphics, and practically the best music I ever heard in CD quality without the CD! I have examples if anyone wants to hear. The newer PCs for years needed to practically be in the GHz to do the same thing. Comes to show that you dont need much power to be a powerhouse

[szlamany]

OMG come to think of it, the Amiga BASIC voice never died. Guess who still uses it....

Steven Hawkins! And yes you can control the pitch of the voice sound as well on the Amiga.

Sorry it was a Dectalk machine - I used them to make phone-line bulliten board dial-in systems for school districts in the mid 1980's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECtalk

Hawkings stopped using that device and now uses something from Speech Plus

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-computer.html

[TysonLPrice]

OMG come to think of it, the Amiga BASIC voice never died. Guess who still uses it....

Steven Hawkins! And yes you can control the pitch of the voice sound as well on the Amiga.

And look at what he is saying:

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/...scaping-earth/

[Jacob Roman]

Sorry it was a Dectalk machine - I used them to make phone-line bulliten board dial-in systems for school districts in the mid 1980's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECtalk

Hawkings stopped using that device and now uses something from Speech Plus

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-computer.html

My point is that the sound is exactly the same as Amiga BASIC's voice. Not that hes using Amiga BASIC. That would be silly

[TysonLPrice]

Actually I find that the workload remains exactly the same. Big dog big flea.....The more that can be done, the more that gets demanded. Even bugs today are just as pesky as ever. Sure, we'd run rings around the problems of the old days with the tools we have today but today's problems are pesky for today's tools.

That's very true...the technology and tool sets have changed but the basics remain the same. That's why I could transition from the mainframe to the Windows application world. You have business needs and tools to accomodate them. Another thing that hasn't changed is those damn users. That could be a thread in itself.

1. Compaq considered changing the command "Press Any Key" to "Press Return Key" because of the flood of calls asking where the "Any" key is.

2. A computer maker technical support had a caller complaining that her mouse was hard to control with the dust cover on. The cover turned out to be the plastic bag the mouse was packaged in.

3. Another Dell customer called to say he couldn't get his computer to fax anything. After 40 minutes of troubleshooting, the technician discovered the man was trying to fax a piece of paper by holding it in front of the monitor screen and hitting the "Send" key.

4. Yet another Dell customer called to complain that his keyboard no longer worked. He had cleaned it by filling up his bathtub with soap and water and soaking the keyboard for a day, then removing all the keys and washing them individually.

5. A Dell technician received a call from a customer who was enraged because his computer had told him he was "Bad and an invalid." The tech explained that the computer's "bad command" and "invalid" responses shouldn't be taken personally.

6. A confused caller to IBM was having trouble printing documents. He told the technician that the computer had said it "couldn't find printer."
The user had also tried turning the computer screen to face the printer-but that his computer still couldn't "see" the printer.

7. An exasperated caller to Dell Computer Tech Support couldn't get her new Dell Computer to turn on. After ensuring the computer was plugged in, the technician asked her what happened when she pushed the power button. Her response, "I pushed and pushed on this foot pedal and nothing happened." The "foot pedal" turned out to be the computer's mouse...

8. Another customer called Compaq tech support to say her brand new computer wouldn't work. She said she unpacked the unit, plugged it in and sat there for 20 minutes waiting for something to happen. When asked what happened when she pressed the power switch, she asked, "What power switch?"

9. Another IBM customer had trouble installing software and rang for support. "I put in the first disk, and that was OK. It said to put in the second disk, and had some problems with the disk. When it said to put in the third disk, I couldn't even fit it in..." The user hadn't realized that "Insert Disk 2" implied removing Disk 1 first.

10. A story from a tech support SysOp:
CALLER: "Hello, is this Tech Support?"
TECH: "Yes, it is. How may I help you?"
CALLER: "The cup holder on my PC is broken -and I am within my warranty period. How do I go about getting that fixed?"
TECH: "I'm sorry, but did you say a cup holder?"
CALLER: "Yes, it's attached to the front of my computer."
TECH: "Please excuse me. If I seem a bit stumped, it's because I am. Did you receive this as part of a promotional at a trade show? How did you get this cup holder? Does it have any trademark on it?"
CALLER: "It came with my computer. I don't know anything about a promotional. It just has '4X' on it." At this point, the Tech Rep had to mute the caller because he couldn't stand it. He was laughing too hard.The caller had been using the load drawer of the CD-ROM drive as a cup holder and it had snapped it off the drive.

11. A woman called the Canon help desk with a problem with her printer.
The tech asked her if she was "running it under windows."
The woman responded, "No, my desk is next to the door. But that is a good point.
The man sitting in the cubicle next to me is under a window and his printer is working fine."

12. And last but not least:
TECH SUPPORT: "O.K. Bob, let's press the control and escape keys at the same time. That brings up a task list in the middle of the screen. Now type the letter "P" to bring up the Program Manager."
CUSTOMER: "I don't have a 'P'".
TECH SUPPORT: "On your keyboard, Bob."
CUSTOMER: "What do you mean?"
TECH SUPPORT: " 'P' on your keyboard, Bob."
CUSTOMER: "I'm not going to do that!"

Here’s a real one from me but not near as cute as the others…I was working over the phone with some user, before I had tools to connect remotely, and was trying to get her to key something in that just wasn’t being accepted. I don’t remember what but it had a hyphen in it. Let’s say it was 123-456. We went back and forth and finally I crossed the building to see what was going one.

She was entering 123hyphen456.

[szlamany]

We created an ISAM DB back in the 80's on a VAX minicomputer...

If you went into the DATABASE DEFINITION utility we would mark a "dirty" bit in the DB definition file so that no one could open the database while field changes were being made.

The message the user got was "DATABASE is DIRTY".

I had one clerk who would take windex and clean her monitor every time this appeared

btw - windex - glass cleaner in the USA...

[Poppa Mintin]

Another thing that hasn't changed is those damn users. That could be a thread in itself.

Good idea, maybe you should start one...

Here's some more in the same vein.

During a company's recent password audit, it was found that the blonde duty technical support employee was using the following password:

"MickeyMinniePlutoHueyLouieDeweyDonaldGoofySacramento"

When asked why she had such a long password, she said she was told that it had to be at least 8 characters long and include at least one capital.

Just then the phone rings and the duty support technician replies...xxxHello, Technical support, how can I help?

Customer:xxxxxxxxxxI can't get on the Internet.
Tech support:xxxxxxiAre you sure you used the right password?
Customer:xxxxxxxxxiYes, I'm sure. I saw my colleague do it.
Tech support:xxxxxxiCan you tell me what the password was?
Customer:xxxxxxxxxiFive little stars.

Poppa.

[dilettante]

Late to the party, but more TRON:

[Niya]

That's very true...the technology and tool sets have changed but the basics remain the same. That's why I could transition from the mainframe to the Windows application world. You have business needs and tools to accomodate them. Another thing that hasn't changed is those damn users. That could be a thread in itself.

1. Compaq considered changing the command "Press Any Key" to "Press Return Key" because of the flood of calls asking where the "Any" key is.

2. A computer maker technical support had a caller complaining that her mouse was hard to control with the dust cover on. The cover turned out to be the plastic bag the mouse was packaged in.

3. Another Dell customer called to say he couldn't get his computer to fax anything. After 40 minutes of troubleshooting, the technician discovered the man was trying to fax a piece of paper by holding it in front of the monitor screen and hitting the "Send" key.

4. Yet another Dell customer called to complain that his keyboard no longer worked. He had cleaned it by filling up his bathtub with soap and water and soaking the keyboard for a day, then removing all the keys and washing them individually.

5. A Dell technician received a call from a customer who was enraged because his computer had told him he was "Bad and an invalid." The tech explained that the computer's "bad command" and "invalid" responses shouldn't be taken personally.

6. A confused caller to IBM was having trouble printing documents. He told the technician that the computer had said it "couldn't find printer."
The user had also tried turning the computer screen to face the printer-but that his computer still couldn't "see" the printer.

7. An exasperated caller to Dell Computer Tech Support couldn't get her new Dell Computer to turn on. After ensuring the computer was plugged in, the technician asked her what happened when she pushed the power button. Her response, "I pushed and pushed on this foot pedal and nothing happened." The "foot pedal" turned out to be the computer's mouse...

8. Another customer called Compaq tech support to say her brand new computer wouldn't work. She said she unpacked the unit, plugged it in and sat there for 20 minutes waiting for something to happen. When asked what happened when she pressed the power switch, she asked, "What power switch?"

9. Another IBM customer had trouble installing software and rang for support. "I put in the first disk, and that was OK. It said to put in the second disk, and had some problems with the disk. When it said to put in the third disk, I couldn't even fit it in..." The user hadn't realized that "Insert Disk 2" implied removing Disk 1 first.

10. A story from a tech support SysOp:
CALLER: "Hello, is this Tech Support?"
TECH: "Yes, it is. How may I help you?"
CALLER: "The cup holder on my PC is broken -and I am within my warranty period. How do I go about getting that fixed?"
TECH: "I'm sorry, but did you say a cup holder?"
CALLER: "Yes, it's attached to the front of my computer."
TECH: "Please excuse me. If I seem a bit stumped, it's because I am. Did you receive this as part of a promotional at a trade show? How did you get this cup holder? Does it have any trademark on it?"
CALLER: "It came with my computer. I don't know anything about a promotional. It just has '4X' on it." At this point, the Tech Rep had to mute the caller because he couldn't stand it. He was laughing too hard.The caller had been using the load drawer of the CD-ROM drive as a cup holder and it had snapped it off the drive.

11. A woman called the Canon help desk with a problem with her printer.
The tech asked her if she was "running it under windows."
The woman responded, "No, my desk is next to the door. But that is a good point.
The man sitting in the cubicle next to me is under a window and his printer is working fine."

12. And last but not least:
TECH SUPPORT: "O.K. Bob, let's press the control and escape keys at the same time. That brings up a task list in the middle of the screen. Now type the letter "P" to bring up the Program Manager."
CUSTOMER: "I don't have a 'P'".
TECH SUPPORT: "On your keyboard, Bob."
CUSTOMER: "What do you mean?"
TECH SUPPORT: " 'P' on your keyboard, Bob."
CUSTOMER: "I'm not going to do that!"

Here’s a real one from me but not near as cute as the others…I was working over the phone with some user, before I had tools to connect remotely, and was trying to get her to key something in that just wasn’t being accepted. I don’t remember what but it had a hyphen in it. Let’s say it was 123-456. We went back and forth and finally I crossed the building to see what was going one.

She was entering 123hyphen456.

This is why chit-chat needs reps....This post made my morning. I especially loved the one where the guy turn his screen to "see" the printer.