Has anyone here read this?

[abhijit]

http://blog.expensify.com/2011/03/25...t-programmers/

None of this makes you a “bad programmer”. All these differences are perfectly irrelevant if you just want to make 1.6 oz burgers as fast as possible, and commit the rest of your career to an endless series of McDonalds menus. But every day spent in that kitchen is a day NOT spent in a real kitchen, learning how to cook real food, and write real code.

Even worse, every day spent learning a Microsoft kitchen takes TWO days to unlearn, meaning once you get a reasonable way down the .NET career path, there is almost no going back. You become so steeped in tools and techniques that have absolutely no relevance outside of .NET that you are actually less valuable to a startup than had you just taken a long nap.

So what’s the moral of this whole story? Two things:

If you ever want to work in a startup, avoid .NET. It does you no favors.
If you are a startup looking to hire really excellent people, take notice of .NET on a resume, and ask why it’s there.
It might sound harsh, and it is. But sometimes we only have squirrels to eat, and we need them to taste good.

I am not sure if this guy is getting accurate analogies. The comments on the article keep getting deleted.

[szlamany]

Personally I agree - .net vs jQuery for me right now is showing a clear winner...

Winning!

[Shaggy Hiker]

That guy has his head where his hind should be.

[szlamany]

He started a good conversation though - some of the posts at the bottom of the blog are very good reads...

[abhijit]

That guy has his head where his hind should be.

He started a good conversation though - some of the posts at the bottom of the blog are very good reads...

I think he's succeeded in trolling the entire Internet!

[formlesstree4]

I don't think this CEO knows a think about programming really...".NET is a dandy language"??? Last I checked, it was a runtime...

[Shaggy Hiker]

I thought the "flamebait" comments were most appropriate. The principle he was stating might even have merit, had it been put forward in a less condescending manner. He began back pedaling with all subsequent comments. Slowly distancing himself from his own comments, especially once he realized that his own customer base was largely annoyed. The fact that he would make such statements in that fashion was interesting. On the other hand, I have never heard of that company, so I don't really know where he's coming from.

It was pretty interesting, though. I thought the volume of response, and the heavy negative bias was a bit of a surprise. Perhaps it was largely the tone of voice.

[formlesstree4]

I thought the "flamebait" comments were most appropriate. The principle he was stating might even have merit, had it been put forward in a less condescending manner. He began back pedaling with all subsequent comments. Slowly distancing himself from his own comments, especially once he realized that his own customer base was largely annoyed. The fact that he would make such statements in that fashion was interesting. On the other hand, I have never heard of that company, so I don't really know where he's coming from.

It was pretty interesting, though. I thought the volume of response, and the heavy negative bias was a bit of a surprise. Perhaps it was largely the tone of voice.

He basically insulted all of the .NET programmers in one sweep, not to mention anyone attached to the Runtime. He did not realize the gravity of his own statements it seems and now he's paying for it.

[Lord_Rat]

Since the overlap between the languages and stylistics of .Net and Java are probably 80 to 90% the same, does that mean Java is similarly doomed? Cause I'd love to unlearn the Java kitchen. I don't even list Java in my resume.

[SambaNeko]

He sounds overly arrogant, and hey, he's a CEO for a startup (?), so what do you expect? Personally I've never liked .Net, but I feel like I'm not the target audience anyway.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Cause I'd love to unlearn the Java kitchen.

You know the Java kitchen????

Can you cook quail eggs?

[FunkyDexter]

No but they have special Quail Beans.


Edit>Ooh, Ooh, and they execute the shells.

[FunkyDexter]

He's not wrong that .Net can teach bad habits and that, lets face, an awful lot of folks who call themselves .Net programmers aren't much cop. Where he's wrong is in the assumption that .Net always teaches bad habits or that all (or even a majority, or even a significant minority) or .Net programmers aren't much cop.

You pick the right tool for the job. But pinheads like this guy miss two fundamental points.
1. Willfully leaving any tool out of your toolbox, no matter how much you dislike using it, is leaving you exposed to the situation where that tool was the one you really needed and
2. .Net, with all its libraries, IDE's, bells and whistles is basically a swiss army knife. It may not have the best screw driver on it but it'll still work on 90% of screws... and teeth... and corks... and small objects requiring magnification.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I've tried to figure out the origin of the word 'cop' based on some of the posts at this forum, and thought I had it. Now you go and use it to mean (I think) "good". I was thinking that it had a similar origin to 'catch', and originally meant catch, but now....

[abhijit]

He's not wrong that .Net can teach bad habits and that, lets face, an awful lot of folks who call themselves .Net programmers aren't much cop. Where he's wrong is in the assumption that .Net always teaches bad habits or that all (or even a majority, or even a significant minority) or .Net programmers aren't much cop.

You pick the right tool for the job. But pinheads like this guy miss two fundamental points.
1. Willfully leaving any tool out of your toolbox, no matter how much you dislike using it, is leaving you exposed to the situation where that tool was the one you really needed and
2. .Net, with all its libraries, IDE's, bells and whistles is basically a swiss army knife. It may not have the best screw driver on it but it'll still work on 90% of screws... and teeth... and corks... and small objects requiring magnification.

VB6 in its hey day was touted by a lot of folks as not a "real programming language". The reason behind this was a lot of VB6 programmers tended to code the quick and dirty way. (using bound controls)

However it was the IDE of choice for several businesses who wanted to get their custom business application up and running ASAP. It has been more than 10 years, but I haven't seen a debugger as good as the standard one shipped with VB6.

I agree with FD, where .NET platform gives you a whole lot of tools to work with. How you use those tools is entirely upto a programmer.

[szlamany]

Actually if you start assessing where you use .net most and what you gain most from that use over what you might have used in the past we can all start seeing what is helping most.

Personally I was fine with ado in vb6 - I really don't need my data so far abstracted from my code that I have to manage a dozen different objects just to find a row of data in a recordset. Not sure the System.Data.SqlClient namespace is all that beneficial to me. Actually when I tried to use things like SQLCommandBuilders they proved to not scale and actually do suck.

ASP.Net - wow - hiding the ajax dom manipulation from me in something called an UPDATEPANEL sounds like heaven. But in the long run if you push the limits of a web page with asp.net ajax you discover that you can't work around the bloat of said ajax and end up with pages that don't reflect the artistic ideals you had - functionality limiting your ability - yuk.

So I end up using 5% of the .net framework anyway - and like about 90% of what I use (great functionality that is documented well) - and intentionally keep it lightweight in hopes I don't constrain myself.

What do you all find .net does for you?

[FunkyDexter]

I've tried to figure out the origin of the word 'cop'

Yeah it sort of means "Good" in this context. I've never heard it used to mean that in other than "Not much cop" though. You can't say 'He was cop at that", you can only say "He was not much cop at that" I don't think it exists as a word to mean good on it's own. I think it might be a Londonese phrase so it might have it's roots in Cockney Rhyming Slang, not sure.

What do you all find .net does for you?

I do almost exclusively bespoke desktop business systems. In that context I'd say it's two great strengths are rapid interface design and easy to read business logic. How closely the ide integrates with SQL Server is also a huge boon but it does tend to lead us to pick SQL Server as a DBMS because it's easy to code against rather than because it's a more suitable platform than any other (although it usually is in my experience).

I'm quite surprised to hear you dislike the SQLClient namespace. I tend not to think of it as distancing me from the data but rather as doing most of the mundane stuff for me. On the occasions I want to be closer to the data for any reason I simply throw it out the window (the namespace, not the data). I have come across apps, though, where the developer clearly got hold of the namespace and was determined to use every component come what may. The code ends up littered with so many cludges and workarounds that you can't help thinkning 'Why didn't you just do it in explicit code'.

Anyway, why aren't you around the DB forum lately.


edit>Shaggy, this link covers where Not Much Cop comes from pretty well. I found some other explanations but they, erm, weren't much cop.

[szlamany]

Anyway, why aren't you around the DB forum lately.

Just spent three months learning jQuery and the jQuery UI library - because of the above noted asp.net limitations! It will now do 100% of my client side page work and I used IIS to serve up JSON strings - webservices written in good old VB.Net - the language itself is really excellent.

So basically I've had zero time - kind of just getting back into the forum now as I start to create my latest app.

jQuery required that I really become robust in javascript - what a different language when it comes to object and scope - and c-syntax has truly been a hard hill to climb. I'm now tri-lingual - VB, C-like and T-SQL.

[Lord_Rat]

What doesn't .Net do for me?

[Hack]

The only thing I've ever heard cop referred to as is a police officer.

How did it get to mean "Good"? Did I miss another staff meeting?

[Lord_Rat]

Did you get the memo? You see, we are attaching Cover Sheets to all COP reports now.

[abhijit]

The only thing I've ever heard cop referred to as is a police officer.

How did it get to mean "Good"? Did I miss another staff meeting?

Out of curiosity I looked up COP

cop
Definition
cop[ kop ]NOUN
cops plural

1. ( informal )
Same as police officer
TRANSITIVE VERB
copped past and past participle
cop·ping present participle
cops 3rd person present singular

1. steal: to steal something, especially by snatching it hurriedly
"Those kids copped candy bars from the store."
2. touch or glimpse somebody or something: to touch or look at somebody or something quickly and furtively
"copped a look at the answers to the quiz"
3. obtain drugs: to obtain illegal drugs
4. get something desirable: to come into possession of something considered desirable
"managed to cop two tickets to the Super Bowl"

[Hack]

I made this staff meeting.

cop
Definition
cop[ kop ]NOUN
cops plural

1. ( informal )
Same as police officer
TRANSITIVE VERB
copped past and past participle
cop·ping present participle
cops 3rd person present singular

1. steal: to steal something, especially by snatching it hurriedly
"Those kids copped candy bars from the store."
2. touch or glimpse somebody or something: to touch or look at somebody or something quickly and furtively
"copped a look at the answers to the quiz"
3. obtain drugs: to obtain illegal drugs
4. get something desirable: to come into possession of something considered desirable
"managed to cop two tickets to the Super Bowl"

One definition they did not include, but was very popular when I was a young lad was "Cop A Feel" - supply your own definition.

But, "Good" is not something I've ever associated with Cop (unless, of course, one is talking about the "A Feel" definition. Then "Good" would be appropriate.

[Lord_Rat]

I made this staff meeting.One definition they did not include, but was very popular when I was a young lad was "Cop A Feel" - supply your own definition.

You mean this one didn't suffice?

2. touch or glimpse somebody or something: to touch or look at somebody or something quickly and furtively
"copped a look at the answers to the quiz"

[Hack]

You mean this one didn't suffice?

2. touch or glimpse somebody or something: to touch or look at somebody or something quickly and furtively
"copped a look at the answers to the quiz"

Inadequate...woefully inadequate. It fails to capture the true essence of "Cop A Feel"

[Lord_Rat]

Oh you want an equivalent mental artistry as to "Danced the Horizontal Mambo" then?

[Hack]

Lets not get too carried away now...

[Lord_Rat]

Ha ha. Fair enough, "Cop".

[FunkyDexter]

Erm, is my previous post invisible? Has it faded in amongst the banality of my other posts? Am I beset by an existential forum conundrum?

Cop does mean good (sort of) but only in the context of the specific expression "Not Much Cop". I've never heard it have the same use in any other context ever. Do not walk up to us Limeys and say "You're looking particularly cop today" unless you want us to look at you quizzically and slowly back away (mind you, we're not very good at foreigners so we'll probably do that anyway).

Hope that clears it up because I'm not very cop at explaining things sometimes.

[Shaggy Hiker]

There are other British uses of the word cop. "That's a fair cop." is a bit out of fashion, perhaps, but the defnition appears to be roughly "catch". That would mean that copper could be "one who cops", which gave us the policeman's slang name: cop.

On the other hand, there is also "to cop a plea".

It's a really bizarre word.

One thing you can say with a fair amount of certainty, though, is that if you give a copper a tin badge, you'd win a bronze metal.

[szlamany]

So cop = constable on patrol is just urban legand?

omg - what else have I been lied to about?

[kregg]

I understand what the guy in his blog post is saying, but he said it in a dumb way.

He's saying that these languages (although .NET is a platform, like Java) sacrifice complexity (like the complexities in C and C++) for "pick-up-and-go" sort of programming (like the .NET programming languages, Java, and anything that requires it's own virtual machine to run on top of the OS.

That doesn't mean to say that isn't a bad thing - he may need C/C++ developers in order make complex applications that interact directly with the memory stack, for example, or they just want hardcore developers because they know even when developing in a simpler programming language, they know what is going on in the background.

And to a point, I agree. I agree that coders who have dabbled in such languages as above will have a greater understanding of what .NET or Java is doing in the background, similar to how since I built my computer, I understand if a PC game meets my machine's requirements, and if my machine didn't meet the requirements, then I know exactly what to do to solve this problem.

Does this mean that .NET developers are slow? Of course not. A good, enthusiastic programmer will try and take their time to understand any language if they want to. Conversely, there do exist C/C++ programmers who are stubborn on the new ideas and methodologies like Object Oriented Programming, for example.

At the end of the day, the guy is entitled to his opinion, if it is really stupid.

[baja_yu]

Have you guys read Battle Programming 3rd edition?

[szlamany]

When in doubt - go to snopes...

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/cop.asp

And from this http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cop

cop3
n
Brit slang (usually used with a negative) worth or value that work is not much cop
[n use of cop1 (in the sense: to catch, hence something caught, something of value)]

All comes back to what Hack said - cop a feel it to take something (a feel that is) and "not much cop" is pretty much not worth cop'ing a feel from...

[abhijit]

FACT: COP actually comes from "Community Oriented Policing"

[abhijit]

Have you guys read Battle Programming 3rd edition?

There were some guys on a forum who started to write a book about this book.

[szlamany]

It's amazing how off topic we can get - I guess chit-chat let's us free associate where our real lives don't permit that!

...I'm quite surprised to hear you dislike the SQLClient namespace. I tend not to think of it as distancing me from the data but rather as doing most of the mundane stuff for me. On the occasions I want to be closer to the data for any reason I simply throw it out the window (the namespace, not the data). I have come across apps, though, where the developer clearly got hold of the namespace and was determined to use every component come what may. The code ends up littered with so many cludges and workarounds that you can't help thinkning 'Why didn't you just do it in explicit code'.

Datatables and datasets and omg - how complicated it can be to get a "identity" value after insert and replace the "fake" key that the dataset has until the row is added - with a lot of concurrent users - both winform and webform - argh...

I think the developers of the SQLClient namespace had a grand vision - but some of what they are doing I would prefer to architect myself.

I guess rapid development of simple applications can happen with what the SQLClient namespace gives you.

I guess all of this is needed if you want to start coding LINQ. I did my stint with LINQ-like "put your pseudo crud retrieval code" directly in your application back in the SYBASE/COBOL days.

I prefer to be 100% in control of my destiny and the .net library doesn't market itself toward that goal.

If it was open source and I could hack the code - that would be different.

Oh - that would be jQuery

[edit] I know you can override default functionality if you start inheriting and class'ing this and that [/edit]

[FunkyDexter]

rapid development of simple applications

Yep, that's when it's good.

The fake key thing isn't so bad if you use sprocs because you just return the idenity value but I know what you mean, you still need to code around it in some way shape or form.

I'm personally not a big fan of datasets that contain more than one table. There'll be folks ready to shoot me for that because I'm giving up alot of the power they offer but I just find that they're harder to deal with conceptually than a single table result set (or whatever MS choose to call it in it's current iteration)

I must admit, I haven't tried out Linq yet. I guess I pride myself on my ability to write and optimise SQL and I don't trust an abstracted layer to do that optimisation for me. Realistically it probably does a perfectly good job so I'm probably not being rational on that one but old habits die hard. Besides, it's got shifty eyes and it's looking at me funny.

As for inheriting to override functionality, you can but I wouldn't want to and, if you have to, it kinda proves your point that the default functionality isn't meeting your needs.

I used to use JQuery back in the J2 days. Back then it pretty much consisted of a connection object you could chuck a query down. I'm guessing it's expanded since then.

[szlamany]

I used to use JQuery back in the J2 days. Back then it pretty much consisted of a connection object you could chuck a query down. I'm guessing it's expanded since then.

jQuery with the incredible jQuery UI and available plug ins - wow!

Take a look at posts 15 and 16 in this thread

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?t=645756

[Shaggy Hiker]

I must admit, I haven't tried out Linq yet. I guess I pride myself on my ability to write and optimise SQL and I don't trust an abstracted layer to do that optimisation for me. Realistically it probably does a perfectly good job so I'm probably not being rational on that one but old habits die hard. Besides, it's got shifty eyes and it's looking at me funny.

That's ok. I went to LINQ, and now I am moving back. I haven't done much LINQ to SQL, nor have I tested that one, but using LINQ to search a list is quick, tight, and slow. Using LINQ to join a couple tables is probably quite efficient, but also pretty rare. Using LINQ to search, sum, etc., on a list or table means trading slower execution times for less code.