[Serious]Why are you not a believer of the existence of God

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Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers

I would have said the opposite, those who believe in God are often looking for some kind of Certainty, as Religion is has been fairly unchanging in its core beliefs for 2000 odd years.

Science is uncertain and some people struggle with the fact that somethings are not written in stone but change with our level of understanding.

Also Science allow us to challenge its theories and concepts and refine them and even debunk them and replace them with new theories as our knowledge expands.

Religion does not allow this, its beliefs and concept are not up for discussion they have been written therefore they are.

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Well I disagree because most nonreligious people continuously rattle on about proof of God, but most religious people take God upon faith. Without absolute certainty, some people cannot believe in God.

As for religion, I find religion to be very dangerous.

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Well I disagree because most nonreligious people continuously rattle on about proof of God, but most religious people take God upon faith.

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That doesn't really make sense, you seem to be saying that because non religious people want evidence before making a decision that means that they need things to be certain and stay the same, and in effect not change.

One of the big things about Science is that it embraces change, not change for changes sake, but where evidence can be produced or debunked.

You seem to be saying because this way of thinking requires evidence then it needs certainty, where as if you were to speak to most scientists i would bet that they would say that in reality what they are certain about today they may not be tomorrow.

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Without absolute certainty, some people cannot believe in God.

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But Faith implies that you believe in God with absolute certainty and without questioning.

Not believing in god does not require absolute certainty it just requires you to have doubts about religion which makes you question them and ask for some evidence as to why you should believe these things.

It always difficult to disprove something like the existence of God which has no physical presence, but equally if i asked you to disprove that the Universe was created by Aliens and is in fact a giant science experiment you would also have difficulty.

Lord Orwell, NeedSomeAnswers, PeteD AND Maven, What is it with this thread that brings back the lost?

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Originally Posted by Lord Orwell

So what you are saying, babies don't have mothers and fathers? Because i am fairly certain that if i never have sex, i won't have a child.

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The answer to your question,
And jesus?
god created every thing, you, me, your child, that tree, that rock.............

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Originally Posted by dee-u

How about everything that surrounds you? How about your breath? Are these things not convincing enough that someone great has made all of them?

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god created every thing, and everyone (everything that surrounds you)
gods creation Thus, gods will.
When life begins, that tree, that child, that dog, this is gods will.

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Originally Posted by 5ms?

Thus If!!!! it's gods will, when life begins, or when the state that follows life ends(Death),
god created it, god terminated it,
Then it can not be your will, it's gods will!!!

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A Absolute Certainty

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Originally Posted by 5ms?

The answer to your question,

god created every thing, you, me, your child, that tree, that rock.............
And jesus.

god created every thing, and everyone (everything that surrounds you)
gods creation Thus, gods will.
When life begins, that tree, that child, that dog, this is gods will.

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If You believe in God, You Have Absolute Certainty

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Originally Posted by 5ms?

A Absolute Certainty




If You believe in God, You Have Absolute Certainty

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Don't confuse belief with knowledge.

belief:
a state of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing.
conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some think, especially when based on examination of evidence.
something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group.


knowledge:
the fact or condition of being aware of something
the range of one's information or understanding.
the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.
the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning.


How is Knowing,
god created every thing, you, me, your child, that tree, that rock.............
And jesus,
confusing belief with knowledge.?

It is interesting to see that 5ms has learned how to use formatting over the course of this discussion. First it was just text. Then it was BOLD text, then it was RED text. What will be next?

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Originally Posted by penagate

Don't confuse belief with knowledge.

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Do you believe your knowledge?

From Wikipedia,
Belief propagation

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Belief propagation is a message passing algorithm for performing inference on graphical models, such as Bayesian networks and Markov random fields. It is an inherently Bayesian procedure, which calculates the marginal distribution for each unobserved node, conditional on any observed nodes. Belief propagation is commonly used in artificial intelligence and information theory and has demonstrated empirical success in numerous applications including low-density parity-check codes, turbo codes, free energy approximation, and satisfiability.

The algorithm was first proposed by Judea Pearl in 1982,[1] who formulated this algorithm on trees, and was later extended to polytrees.[2] It has since been shown to be a useful approximate algorithm on general graphs.[3]

If X=(Xv) is a set of discrete random variables with a joint mass function p, the marginal distribution of a single Xi is simply the summation of p over all other variables:http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/c...c3d0cdfb87.png

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

It is interesting to see that 5ms has learned how to use formatting over the course of this discussion. First it was just text. Then it was BOLD text, then it was RED text. What will be next?

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Italics, it should be next. And next is the Underline.

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How is Knowing,
god created every thing, you, me, your child, that tree, that rock.............
And jesus,
confusing belief with knowledge.?

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Mainly because to really know that god created everything you would practically have to be God otherwise how can you know !

...were as to just believe that God created everything, well humans have shown that they are certainly capable of belief !

Are you claiming to be a God or the God ?

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Originally Posted by dee-u

Italics, it should be next. And next is the Underline.

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Been there dun that.

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Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers

Mainly because to really know that god created everything you would practically have to be God otherwise how can you know !

...were as to just believe that God created everything, well humans have shown that they are certainly capable of belief !

Are you claiming to be a God or the God ?

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I'm not claiming to be a God or the God.
I am GOD !

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Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers

Mainly because to really know that god created everything you would practically have to be God otherwise how can you know !

...were as to just believe that God created everything, well humans have shown that they are certainly capable of belief !

Are you claiming to be a God or the God ?

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I personally believe that we are all gods. I also believe that we are all potentially God(The masters like Christ and Krishna are realized God). So if we keep on developing and expanding we can eventually realize our true nature. When we do we no longer will need to believe in God's existence. We will know for certain that God exists. We'll be more certain of that existence than we are now of our physical existence. If you asks me to elaborate I don't know if I will though. You could go on trying to argue your point forever and not make much headway trying to convince someone else of something. I think it's better to keep the bulk of your efforts trying to improve yourself and not waste too much effort trying to convert someone else to your own convictions.

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Originally Posted by EntityX

I personally believe that we are all gods. I also believe that we are all potentially God(The masters like Christ and Krishna are realized God). So if we keep on developing and expanding we can eventually realize our true nature. When we do we no longer will need to believe in God's existence. We will know for certain that God exists. We'll be more certain of that existence than we are now of our physical existence. If you asks me to elaborate I don't know if I will though. You could go on trying to argue your point forever and not make much headway trying to convince someone else of something. I think it's better to keep the bulk of your efforts trying to improve yourself and not waste too much effort trying to convert someone else to your own convictions.

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even if someone doesn't believe in a diety, this is a great way to live. I personally try to do right with people, and better myself. I don't think i'm heading to Nirvana or anything like that, but in general, people like me better than they used to.

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Originally Posted by 5ms?

Do you believe your knowledge?

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I believe there is no knowledge.

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Originally Posted by penagate

I believe there is no knowledge.

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¿Do you believe you have no knowledge?
I have knowledge.;)

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Originally Posted by 5ms?

Lord Orwell, NeedSomeAnswers, PeteD AND Maven, What is it with this thread that brings back the lost?

The answer to your question,
And jesus?
god created every thing, you, me, your child, that tree, that rock.............

god created every thing, and everyone (everything that surrounds you)
gods creation Thus, gods will.
When life begins, that tree, that child, that dog, this is gods will.

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I am not in the mood to pick apart a 2000 year old quote that's been translated multiple times from other translations and was originally penned down by men to start with. But let's just say Jesus didn't have a human father. He still had a human mother. That means she created him. Maybe not alone, but God didn't do it alone either.

and if god created everything, why did he create cigarettes? A good view of utopia is humanity one with nature. This is what eden was supposed to be, although if you notice carefully in genesis it mentions more than once there were other humans around already. So if God created Eden, and gave it to man, why did he put the tree there in the first place, and why were snakes blamed? Yeah yeah i know: (the snake is satan) but that is a stretch by christians to try to show that the devil is mentioned in the old testament. The word "Satan" originally wasn't the name for the beast. It actually means someone working against god, and can be anyone. Thus the argument in Job. Yes, i have read the bible, both new and old testament, and there are a bunch of problems with both of them, not the least of which the old testament is a booklet on genocide and the new testament is a book of contradictions. Frankly the way the church edited it down, i'm surprised the fig tree made it in there because it showed Jesus was vindictive and had a temper. There was also another incident which comes to mind: The way he rampaged through the church overturning the gambling areas (which are still in churches disguised as bingo).

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Originally Posted by Lord Orwell

I am not in the mood to pick apart a 2000 year old quote that's been translated multiple times from other translations and was originally penned down by men to start with. But let's just say Jesus didn't have a human father. He still had a human mother. That means she created him. Maybe not alone, but God didn't do it alone either.

and if god created everything, why did he create cigarettes? A good view of utopia is humanity one with nature. This is what eden was supposed to be, although if you notice carefully in genesis it mentions more than once there were other humans around already. So if God created Eden, and gave it to man, why did he put the tree there in the first place, and why were snakes blamed? Yeah yeah i know: (the snake is satan) but that is a stretch by christians to try to show that the devil is mentioned in the old testament. The word "Satan" originally wasn't the name for the beast. It actually means someone working against god, and can be anyone. Thus the argument in Job. Yes, i have read the bible, both new and old testament, and there are a bunch of problems with both of them, not the least of which the old testament is a booklet on genocide and the new testament is a book of contradictions. Frankly the way the church edited it down, i'm surprised the fig tree made it in there because it showed Jesus was vindictive and had a temper. There was also another incident which comes to mind: The way he rampaged through the church overturning the gambling areas (which are still in churches disguised as bingo).

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God did not create the cigarette, humans made them out of the creations of God, same thing as He did not create Nuclear bombs, etc. And reading the Bible doesn't necessarily mean we understand it.

the only real point i was trying to make above was all bibles are written by the hand of man, and that particular one, even if inspired by the hand of god, has since been rewritten numerous times. google king james shakespear. It's a really odd coincidence if it is a coincidence, especially considering shakespear wasn't supposed to be a real person.

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Originally Posted by Lord Orwell

why did he create cigarettes?

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he likes a Faag now and again.:D

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Originally Posted by dee-u

God did not create the cigarette, humans made them out of the creations of God, same thing as He did not create Nuclear bombs, etc. And reading the Bible doesn't necessarily mean we understand it.

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Ok, name some things created by god.

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Originally Posted by penagate

Don't confuse belief with knowledge.

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I think you're confusing belief with faith. :D

Don't confuse confusion.

:lol:

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Originally Posted by EntityX

Don't confuse confussion.

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LoL.

And I think you're just confused. Faith is belief. Neither is knowledge.

The reason I said "I believe there is no knowledge" is because all knowledge is based on perception. I perceive that the keyboard under my fingers is black and that the milk on my desk has gone off, but does this mean that those things are true? Others might perceive them in the same way but that does not mean that everyone will: someone with a taste for sour milk might perceive mine as merely well-curdled. I believe that the milk is rotten. They believe it is fine.

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Originally Posted by penagate

Don't confuse belief with knowledge.

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Originally Posted by 5ms?

I think you're confusing belief with faith. :D

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Originally Posted by penagate

And I think you're just confused. Faith is belief. Neither is knowledge.

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Originally Posted by penagate

I believe there is no knowledge.

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Originally Posted by 5ms?

¿Do you believe you have no knowledge?
I have knowledge.;)

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Faith:
The word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general.
Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
As with "trust", faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes, and is used conversely for a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence.

belief:
conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some think, especially when based on examination of evidence.

knowledge:
the fact or condition of being aware of something
the range of one's information or understanding.
the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.
the circumstance or condition of apprehending truth or fact through reasoning.

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Originally Posted by EntityX

Don't confuse confussion.

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EntityX, Don't confuse the confused

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :eek2:

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Originally Posted by penagate

The reason I said "I believe there is no knowledge" is because all knowledge is based on perception. I perceive that the keyboard under my fingers is black and that the milk on my desk has gone off, but does this mean that those things are true? Others might perceive them in the same way but that does not mean that everyone will: someone with a taste for sour milk might perceive mine as merely well-curdled. I believe that the milk is rotten. They believe it is fine.

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You perceive that there is a keyboard under Your fingers.
¿But You have no knowledge of the keyboard under Your fingers.?

Perhaps not the best arguments; it is a fact that the keyboard under your fingers reflects only in certain components of the electromagnetic spectrum. That you choose to denote the absorption profile of your keyboard as "black" is simply down to semantics. Can we prove that I see black in exactly the same way as you see black? No. But that does not mean that we cannot make an independent measurement on which we both agree a result.

Equally, I don't think that you will find argument from two people with functioning tastebuds that your milk has gone off. Whether you enjoy the taste is a somewhat different point. On this, however, the point is slightly different because not-very-well-aged milk could taste "on the turn" to one person and "completely fine" to mendhak. Nevertheless, a chemical analysis of the milk would reveal a set of results that both parties can agree to without the question of perception arising.


Ultimately, I guess I'm saying that it boils down to bucketing. That different people can discern finer levels of detail than others is beyond dispute, so that what you bucket as "black" others may bucket as "very dark blue" or "very dark green" etc. Nevertheless, given the numbers behind the perception, you will find that you can reach agreement with the next man.

Which leads us to the origins of the word "science"......

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Originally Posted by dee-u
God did not create the cigarette, humans made them out of the creations of God, same thing as He did not create Nuclear bombs, etc. And reading the Bible doesn't necessarily mean we understand it.

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i am glad you fell into my trap on this one. According to the bible, not only did God create the animals and plants, he created man, therefore anything man creates is created by god. Additionally, the bible clearly states in genesis that god gave man dominion over the plants and animals to do with as he pleases. "don't eat the passion fruit, but it's ok to smoke the tobacco and kill yourself. I'll just create another guy"

plus: Where did cain and abel's wives come from?

finally, hebrew language was full of symbology that simply doesn't translate into our language, period. Literal translations such as "10 horns" doesn't really give justice to the true meaning. The horn was the symbol of power and 10 was one of the two perfect numbers. The other being "7". In addition, the head was considered the seat of knowledge. Therefore, "seven heads and 10 horns" means all-powerful and all-knowing. n other words, the beast in revalation will have all knowledge and all power. Just simply reading revelation will not tell you this. Only works by scholars unlock these secrets.

Who really killed David? Two books in a row give different answers.

Is god still in the Ark? He's supposed to hang about above it as a haze, kind of like zordon did in the power rangers.

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Originally Posted by Lord Orwell

i am glad you fell into my trap on this one. According to the bible, not only did God create the animals and plants, he created man, therefore anything man creates is created by god. Additionally, the bible clearly states in genesis that god gave man dominion over the plants and animals to do with as he pleases. "don't eat the passion fruit, but it's ok to smoke the tobacco and kill yourself. I'll just create another guy"

plus: Where did cain and abel's wives come from?

finally, hebrew language was full of symbology that simply doesn't translate into our language, period. Literal translations such as "10 horns" doesn't really give justice to the true meaning. The horn was the symbol of power and 10 was one of the two perfect numbers. The other being "7". In addition, the head was considered the seat of knowledge. Therefore, "seven heads and 10 horns" means all-powerful and all-knowing. n other words, the beast in revalation will have all knowledge and all power. Just simply reading revelation will not tell you this. Only works by scholars unlock these secrets.

Who really killed David? Two books in a row give different answers.

Is god still in the Ark? He's supposed to hang about above it as a haze, kind of like zordon did in the power rangers.

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There is no knowledge. :D

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Originally Posted by 5ms?

Ok, name some things created by god.

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Sun,human,animals,etc...

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Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers

That doesn't really make sense, you seem to be saying that because non religious people want evidence before making a decision that means that they need things to be certain and stay the same, and in effect not change.

One of the big things about Science is that it embraces change, not change for changes sake, but where evidence can be produced or debunked.

You seem to be saying because this way of thinking requires evidence then it needs certainty, where as if you were to speak to most scientists i would bet that they would say that in reality what they are certain about today they may not be tomorrow.

But Faith implies that you believe in God with absolute certainty and without questioning.

Not believing in god does not require absolute certainty it just requires you to have doubts about religion which makes you question them and ask for some evidence as to why you should believe these things.

It always difficult to disprove something like the existence of God which has no physical presence, but equally if i asked you to disprove that the Universe was created by Aliens and is in fact a giant science experiment you would also have difficulty.

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According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, "Proof: (1) : the cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact."

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, "Faith: (b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof."

I'm saying that nonreligious people need the certainty of proof, and they are unable to believe in God without it. You need such a strong collection of evidence as to prove with absolute certainty of the existence of God. A mathematical proof of the existence of God by the greatest logician of the 20th century (Kurt Godel) would not be enough evidence. Nor would a creation theory like the Big Bang. People are looking for absolute certainty.

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Originally Posted by Lord Orwell

i am glad you fell into my trap on this one. According to the bible, not only did God create the animals and plants, he created man, therefore anything man creates is created by god. Additionally, the bible clearly states in genesis that god gave man dominion over the plants and animals to do with as he pleases. "don't eat the passion fruit, but it's ok to smoke the tobacco and kill yourself. I'll just create another guy"

plus: Where did cain and abel's wives come from?

finally, hebrew language was full of symbology that simply doesn't translate into our language, period. Literal translations such as "10 horns" doesn't really give justice to the true meaning. The horn was the symbol of power and 10 was one of the two perfect numbers. The other being "7". In addition, the head was considered the seat of knowledge. Therefore, "seven heads and 10 horns" means all-powerful and all-knowing. n other words, the beast in revalation will have all knowledge and all power. Just simply reading revelation will not tell you this. Only works by scholars unlock these secrets.

Who really killed David? Two books in a row give different answers.

Is god still in the Ark? He's supposed to hang about above it as a haze, kind of like zordon did in the power rangers.

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But man is not capable of creation, we cannot make anything out of nothing, we can only mold/alter what God has already created.

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Originally Posted by dee-u

But man is not capable of creation.

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As well as God. Believing God created everything just by faith is BS. :wave:

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Originally Posted by dee-u

But man is not capable of creation, we cannot make anything out of nothing, we can only mold/alter what God has already created.

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I would say technically there is no such thing as nothing - there is always something.

Why do Christians tell their kids Santa is real?

Won't realizing Santa isn't real increase the chance their kids will reject faith?

Seems self-defeating.

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Originally Posted by mar_zim

As well as God. Believing God created everything just by faith is BS. :wave:

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Hmmmnnn... A Filipino not believing in God? Its the first time to meet one.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

Why do Christians tell their kids Santa is real?

Won't realizing Santa isn't real increase the chance their kids will reject faith?

Seems self-defeating.

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Not all who says they are Christian are true Christian.

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Originally Posted by capsulecorpjx

Why do Christians tell their kids Santa is real?

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Santa is real!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,
As real as god!!!!!!!!!!!!