Should I stay or should I go now?

[FunkyDexter]

I just got offered a new job. It looks like an excellent opportunity, pay increase from £30k to £37k with a bonus scheme and a better pension plan. They'd also train me into C# and the work would be far more technical, lots of low level stuff and alot of work with the windows 32 api. It would be challenging and a steep learning curve but I'm the sort of bloke who loves a challenge and loves learning new things. From the point of view of furthering my career it's a complete no brainer.

But I really like it where I am at the moment. I get on really well with the people and I actually look forward to coming in. Out of all the companies I've ever worked for, this one has been my favourite. The work is basic VB6 database development stuff and doesn't really challenge me (which is a bad thing... except on Mondays when it's welcome ;)) but if there's anything wild and wacky that needs doing it generally gets given to me so I do get the occasional challenge. My last three jobs were absolutely aweful (one of them was bad enough to see me getting treated for depression for the only time in my life) so I really value the fact that I'm happy here. It is a bit of a career doldrum though, small company with no opportunity to advance at all. I suspect they'll aproximately match (or close to match) the salary offer and there's talk of a big web project coming up for which they'll use ASP.net (which would also be a new technology for me) which they'd likely give me ownership of and train me up on but C# is a far more interesting prospect. I think I'd get along fine with the guys at the new company but I can't be sure from one interview (they did seem nice though).

So what do I do, stay where I'm happy but where I'll never really advance, or go where I'll probably happy (though probably not as happy) but be far more challenged and which will likely see me with a much bigger pay packet on 5 years time?

[nemaroller]

First, I would tell the small company, you've been 'approached' and you are considering leaving for the challenge and the opportunity to learn new technologies. However, I would throw how you get along with everyone and hate to leave, but it really looks like the best for your career. Perhaps if they could give you complete jurisdiction of the upcoming web project and let you get started on it straight away, you would be inclined to stay for extra $5k pounds.

That pretty much will get the ball rolling and you may find your decision will be a lot easier once you get input from your current employer. ;)

[FunkyDexter]

I have actually told them already. They want to talk to me after lunch so I'll know more then. The thing is, from a challenge and career furthering point of view, the upcoming project just doesn't stack up against C# and a far more technical role.

[mendhak]

The other company, because it's not good to sit forever in one place if it's comfortable. In the other place, you'll just find a different definition of happiness.

[staticbob]

Agree with the frog, onwards and upwards!!!

[timeshifter]

I'd say get out of VB6. It's a dying technology, regardless of what anyone might say. As wonderful of a language as it may be, .NET is so much more advanced and there are so many things you can do with it that would have been so painful in VB6. The game I'm working on right now, for instance... I'd guess it would have been about twice as much code in VB6, and it would have been much less efficient. Considering I'm drawing entirely with GDI+, the way .NET lets me do things is a massive bonus over VB6. I'd never go back to the old ways again.

[nemaroller]

Yea like 'sadness'.

[RhinoBull]

Definitely move on. It will be challenging but will pay off sooner then you would expect.

Good luck in your new venture. :wave:

[sevenhalo]

First, I would tell the small company, you've been 'approached' and you are considering leaving for the challenge
Do NOT do this. That is single handedly the worst advice you can give someone.

You never mention that you might leave. Never, ever ever ever. The second you do, they will start looking for a replacement and clear you of your responsibilities. Even if you end up staying, you're already slowly out the door.

We work in IT. Nowadays, that is the fourth leg on every company's business table. Most every employer will tell you - because of the importance of what we do, loyalty and dependability is a major factor in this line of work. Threatening to leave if we don't get our way is not a card we're allowed to carry. While it's not extortion, it's deffinitely a close cousin.

Approach the company you work for and ask for a challenge (or better yet, bring one to them). That much is fine. If they will work with you and allow you to pursue this, then great. If not, then look at the other position.

Also, earn your worth. Job jumping is fine when it's just that - a job. Based on the salary, it sounds more like you're on the career path. And unless you have clear cut reasons for changing companies alot, you're going to immediately raise two red flags for every future employer - no loyalty, no dependability. Which means, you will fight an uphill battle in every new position to take on any new responsibilities.

[FunkyDexter]

Aaarrgghhh, now it's a REALLY hard decision. I just got out of the meeting with my manager and they didn't just match the offer but bettered it to £38K. I really wasn't expecting them to do that, we're a small company without much of a turnover so I genuinely didn't think they'd be able to even match the offer. And, yes, I'm going to be at the forefront of the ASP.net projects (plural as it turns out) if I stay. Trouble is no clients have actually agreed to pay for ASP work yet so it may never happen.

In all honesty, if it wasn't for the greater challenge the new company's offering I wouldn't even consider leaving but I suspect C# is likely to be much better for my career than ASP.net (I'd really value any opinions on that point, by the way). I'm going to sleep on it before I make a decision.

SevenHalo, generally I agree with you and when I spoke to my manager this morning it was to say "I'm leaving" rather than "I'm leaving unless you give me more money". This is a really close and freindly company and I wouldn't be afraid to just ask for a pay rise here if money was my only motivation. Asking for a challenge is different, though; the company doesn't really face many challenges (technologically) so there aren't really any to give me even if I asked. I really don't want to hold this company to ransom, I owe them better than that. I definitely consider this a career rather than a job but that's a double edged sword in this case. Loyalty's important but so's having the right experience and VB6 is a dieing language (though I suspect it's got a great many years left in it yet).

Oh God, I hate making hard decisions.:(

[RhinoBull]

...In all honesty, if it wasn't for the greater challenge the new company's offering I wouldn't even consider leaving but I suspect C# is likely to be much better for my career than ASP.net (I'd really value any opinions on that point, by the way)...
You must know some programming language in order to build ASP pages.
If you choose .Net then C# or VB.Net are your choices. Go for it. :)

[FunkyDexter]

You must know some programming language in order to build ASP pages.True, I should have specified really. The ASP.net here is going to use VB.net.

[nemaroller]

Do NOT do this. That is single handedly the worst advice you can give someone.

You never mention that you might leave. Never, ever ever ever. The second you do, they will start looking for a replacement and clear you of your responsibilities. Even if you end up staying, you're already slowly out the door.

You fulfill a service for a company for which they provide you compensation for. The arrangement is neither permanent nor guaranteed. If they no longer require your services, you are gone. Friendships are great, yet it's still strictly a business arrangement.

For many people, they simply leave their current job because staying there is not even an option. However, if you truly like your current job, there is only one sure fire way to get just compensation - and that's to put management on the spot. YOU may think you are seen as important to the company, but you will never know until you require them to make a strictly business decision based on your contribution. If they let you walk, perhaps it wasn't a good fit after all and you would dawdle away years going nowhere.

As far as loyalty, the IT industry has boatloads of contractors, so loyalty is only desired by the senior level IT employees.

Maybe because I attended mainly business school for the first 3 years of college, perhaps I have a completely different view than people who graduated with Computer Science degrees.

[RhinoBull]

True, I should have specified really. The ASP.net here is going to use VB.net.
Language is no longer relevant in .Net. However, knowing both C# and VB.Net [syntax wise, etc] will make you much stronger and flexible programmer.

[Lord Orwell]

My suggestion is stay at the job you are happy at. It is rare that a person loves their job and you are lucky in this. If i loved my job i wouldn't ever consider changing jobs for a pay raise. And in your case you don't even have that going for you. They offered you a pay raise to stay, and even if you don't ever use asp.net, you are still broadening your experience by learning it.

[sevenhalo]

Maybe because I attended mainly business school for the first 3 years of college, perhaps I have a completely different view than people who graduated with Computer Science degrees.
Who said I have a degree in Computer Science?

Entire companys can't be ran with contractors alone. The rest of the positions aren't all senior. If you aspire to something greater, loyalty and dependability are 80% of what you need. The other 20% of aptitude is shown just by doing your job.

Putting managers on the spot is a horrible way to get what you want. Ecspecially (like my original point was) if it's ultimatumish. Ask for a challenge, ask for a raise, remind them of things in your reviews - but never EVER tell them "otherwise you'll walk." If you get to that point, just do it. If they ask why, tell them.

The big reason being, some people might see this as a threat. It comes with the job that you have a great deal of intellectual property and inside knowledge of the company. That's where my "extortion" comment comes from.

You fulfill a service for a company for which they provide you compensation for. The arrangement is neither permanent nor guaranteed. If they no longer require your services, you are gone. Friendships are great, yet it's still strictly a business arrangement.
I don't know where you pulled "friendship" in all of this. My post is purely self based and business minded. I just avoid the "burn the bridges" and "taking the ball and going home" approach to being employed.

[FunkyDexter]

and that's to put management on the spotThat's true and certainly this time it's prompted a raise but a) you can usually only do it once and b) I think if the company had the cash in the bank they'd have probably given it to me anyway in this case. I know that cashflow hasn't been good at the moment though so nobody's been getting raises.

I can't stress enough how close this company is, I've never worked anywhere like it before. Normally when a company says '"We're like one big family" it's management BS, here I think it's actually true. This actually gives me another (maybe silly) motivation to stay. Guilt. I know I should look out for myself and all that but I also know that they'll struggle without me. Don't get me wrong, they'd carry on without me, I'm not the be all and end all, but I have sole ownership of several products which someone else is going to have to take on and, while the code for them isn't complicated, some of the concepts are. I don't just feel valued by the company, I value them too and really don't want to hurt them. While my conciense aint gonna pay the bills, the bills are getting paid anyway.

Which begs another question. Moving to the new company would be good for my career, but what am I building the career for? I came to programming fairly late (graduated at 31) and spent my twenties playing in bands (which I loved) then working in crappy call centre jobs (which I hated). I realised I wanted a decent life so scrimped my way through a degree and then got out into the market. I've been pushing hard ever since because I've had alot of catching up to do. But maybe I've caught up now. If I'm happy in a job that's paying the mortgage, paying the bills and allows me to indulge my taste in wine then do I need to keep pushing or have I already got what I want?

Thing is, I'm not sure I have got what I want. What I lack at the moment is a challenge and a sense of advancement. Both of which the new job would offer me.

I think I'm leaning towards going but my minds a total muddle at the moment.

[Lord Orwell]

You have to be certain you want to leave or you will regret it if you do with second-guesses. Don't leave.

[si_the_geek]

From the sounds of it, the money isn't important - either way you'll have enough to do what you need/want. That basically brings it down to the choice of feeling you belong (but not being challenged as much as you would like), or going where you would be challenged - but are then likely to lose the feeling of 'family'.

The tough part is working out whether "belonging" or "being challenged" is more important to you, and you are the only one who can make that choice... not easy!

Even tho the decision seems like a permanent one, whichever decision you make could probably be reversed later if things don't pan out as you thought.

[sevenhalo]

and you are the only one who can make that choice...
The rest of what you said makes sense, but... I don't necessarily agree with this part. I am fully capable of making decisions for other people - pretty good at it too.

[nemaroller]

Who said I have a degree in Computer Science?

Entire companys can't be ran with contractors alone. The rest of the positions aren't all senior. If you aspire to something greater, loyalty and dependability are 80% of what you need. The other 20% of aptitude is shown just by doing your job.



I never told him to walk, but just state you've been approached.

Regardless, I've never been asked at an interview, 'would you considered yourself to have been loyal to your former employer?'.

Loyalty has nothing to do with work performance or desirability, or the capability to achieve greatness. In fact, the term doesn't even come into play in employment postings.

[FunkyDexter]

I am fully capable of making decisions for other people - pretty good at it too.And I am fully incapable of making decisions for myself.:rolleyes: Maybe I should have made this into a poll (as a bonus it would have stayed in chit chat for longer too).

I've chewed away on it all day and talked to my family and closest freinds and I've decided to go. I like my current job and love the people, but I can feel a bit of boredom starting to creep in with the work itself. If it does all go wrong I probably wouldn't be able to come back (I'd probably be welcome but the position just won't be there) but I'm confident I would be able to find something else I liked.

The major downside to it is that I won't have a good reason to visit VBF anymore... so I'll just have to come up with some bad ones:thumb:

[sevenhalo]

I think it matters more than you might imagine. It's not a requirement to obtain a position, but it is one if you hope to grow in it.

[szlamany]

The major downside to it is that I won't have a good reason to visit VBF anymore... so I'll just have to come up with some bad ones:thumb:Good luck - working on projects that challenge you is one of the most important things in my opinion!

We will miss your contributions here :)

[szlamany]

I think it matters more than you might imagine. It's not a requirement to obtain a position, but it is one if you hope to grow in it.I couldn't agree with you more!

[nemaroller]

I think it matters more than you might imagine. It's not a requirement to obtain a position, but it is one if you hope to grow in it.

Not to offend, but let me just state that holds very little truth - and if you think like that, you will find yourself out on the street one day with little experience for others to potentially hire you for.

Most senior management in corporations today are hired outside of the corporation and the average tenure is 5 years. So the maximum 'loyalty' you will gain is 5 years - after which it will be thrown out the window due to senior level turn over. Go ahead and ask your immediate manager how long they've been with the company. I would guess its under 5 years if even 3. So guess how much the replacing manager cares about your tenure?

You get hired into your position - you may be able to bump one position higher if you're lucky - but most likely your next jump will only come with a new job.

[sevenhalo]

My manager's been here 9. My current Project Lead has been here almost 3. I've been here 1 - hired on from a contract position.

[szlamany]

@nema - it's a trait we look for in people that we have working for us...

Maybe that's because we are a small shop.

I can see the flipside where a large company could care less about the loyalty of it's employees. But that's sad isn't it?

[nemaroller]

@nema - it's a trait we look for in people that we have working for us...


Candidate A - worked last 7 years at the same software company.
Candidate B - worked last 7 years at 5 software companies (longest tenure at one company being 2 years).

All other things being equal, which candidate offers more industry experience?

Candidate A knows one business development model - the company he worked at for the past 7 years and receives a favorable review.

Candidate B has been exposed to 5 different environments and receives favorable reviews from all of them.

With all other things being equal, Candidate B exhibits flexibility and the ability to adapt in my opinion.

Candidate A may only be able to offer one solution to a problem (as his last company implemented), whereas Candidate B can draw on potentially 5 distinct models to offer a solution.

I've seen people who have been at companies for over 5 years, and how they've become so detached from the advancements in development technologies and too centric in their place in a company.

I remember being taken aback when a senior technology manager inquired us new hires about 'business objects' and unit testing. AJAX conjured images of a lemon degreaser. ISO 9000 QA tests were a foreign language to them.

Loyalty, hard work, and experience are not mutually inclusive.

[nemaroller]

I've chewed away on it all day and talked to my family and closest freinds and I've decided to go.

Good choice.

The major downside to it is that I won't have a good reason to visit VBF anymore... so I'll just have to come up with some bad ones:thumb:
VBF has a C# and an API forum. :)

[Shaggy Hiker]

Well, good luck, hope it works. I would have argued against the move. I have worked for ten years in a job where the money is far less than I could get elsewhere. The key balancing point is I have massive time flexibility, which has allowed me to go for month long hikes for three of the last four years, and the fourth year was just a bunch of shorter hikes to test new equipment. Those month long trips aren't even cutting into my leave balance in a serious way, either, so I am considering a 70 day hike in a couple years.

However, during the ten years with the same agency, I have had two different jobs (and started a third one last week). In one of those jobs I liked everybody really well, and everything except the pay was great. In the second job, there was considerable conflict (and lets just be leaving it at that), though the pay was considerably higher. The happiness of the first job was not offset entirely by the increased pay of the second.

At some point, you have to realize that with every minute you are dying, so you had best make the most of the time you have. Life is too short to live in a job you hate only to make money that you might use at some later date. Since your job will be a large portion of your life, you had best like it. If the challenges are the biggest issue, then you can go for that, but people matter too. After all, challenges can be had for a modest price....like the robot that has been sucking up all my spare cash for the last six months, but I am learning plenty.

[FunkyDexter]

In the second job, there was considerable conflict (and lets just be leaving it at that), though the pay was considerably higher. The happiness of the first job was not offset entirely by the increased pay of the second.That's the thing that really worries me. I've had conflict myself and it made me absolutely miserable. But I liked the guys that interviewed me so I think it's going to be fine. And if it isn't I can always do a Richard Banner.

VBF has a C# and an API forum.Woohoo, bad reason found:bigyello:

[jcis]

Candidate A - worked last 7 years at the same software company.
Candidate B - worked last 7 years at 5 software companies (longest tenure at one company being 2 years).

All other things being equal, which candidate offers more industry experience?

Candidate A knows one business development model - the company he worked at for the past 7 years and receives a favorable review.

Candidate B has been exposed to 5 different environments and receives favorable reviews from all of them.

With all other things being equal, Candidate B exhibits flexibility and the ability to adapt in my opinion.

Candidate A may only be able to offer one solution to a problem (as his last company implemented), whereas Candidate B can draw on potentially 5 distinct models to offer a solution.

I've seen people who have been at companies for over 5 years, and how they've become so detached from the advancements in development technologies and too centric in their place in a company.

I remember being taken aback when a senior technology manager inquired us new hires about 'business objects' and unit testing. AJAX conjured images of a lemon degreaser. ISO 9000 QA tests were a foreign language to them.

Loyalty, hard work, and experience are not mutually inclusive.
Loyalty has nothing to do with how many places you worked for, in fact Candidate B would need to have more "Loyalty" in his past because of something called references. With Candidate B, The new employer has 5 ex-Bosses to contact and ask about him, so who would need more loyalty here?
Being loyal is not a term related to love one job and never leave it, you can leave a job the worng way or you can leave it loyally, it doesn't matter how it is if it "looks loyal" to others. There is something i heard many times and then I prove it myself: "In this business, it's more important how it seems than how it is", I really don't like it, but that's how it is.. sometimes.

[nemaroller]

Loyalty has nothing to do with how many places you worked for, in fact Candidate B would need to have more "Loyalty" in his past because of something called references.
Candidate B would have far more references.

With Candidate B, The new employer has 5 ex-Bosses to contact and ask about him, so who would need more loyalty here?
I don't see an association between having 5 ex-bosses and the need for proving loyalty.

A professional worker does not leave a job the 'wrong' way. They leave after their current project has finished, give a standard 2-3 weeks notice, and don't burn bridges.

I've done quite a few candidate interviews in previous jobs and have found most of the time we highlight for whom and what industry the candidate has worked for. Very rare is the case anyone questions the length of time worked at one place - unless that person is noticeably jumping every 3 to 6 months, or an unfavorable review popped up.

In the end the question is - is the person professional, has the skills and exposure we need, and can be had at a satisfactory price.

[RhinoBull]

Arguments between nemaroller and jcis are really pointless and definitely "no win" for either party. :ehh:

The things you guys are arguing about are deeply embedded in your societies, countries, part of the world...

Whilst it is ok to change the job in US it might not be so in some other countries.
In US you must be aggressive in most places or they are going to eat you alive... 2-3% yearly raise (if you are lucky to get one) won't take far though but it's your life and you have to take care of yourself...
In some other countries this could be crucial to your career - you may not get a second chance because of that "Loyalty" if you ever change the job (I know this for a fact).
In some places it's definitely important to know that you can stay for a long time and some places don't even give a damn about it.
Small business vs medium vs large could also be a big factor. Mostly in big companies people can't wait till 5PM to go home and nobody cares what everybody else does.
In small complanies people may not care (not the owners - employees) but everyone's input so critical so at least they may show that they do care.

It's always difficult to suggest what to do - there are lots of factors that we may never know (it may include family situation, place where you live, commute, etc, etc, etc).
However if there is an opportunity that may improve your current and future life there is more YES than NO (if you ask me).


... my 5c anyway ... :afrog:

[Lord Orwell]

the laws in indiana make it illegal to discuss with someone why someone else was fired. All we are allowed to tell someone is "they worked here from mmddyy to mmddyy and we would/wouldnot hire them again.

[sevenhalo]

the laws in indiana make it illegal to discuss with someone why someone else was fired. All we are allowed to tell someone is "they worked here from mmddyy to mmddyy and we would/wouldnot hire them again.
That's every company I have ever worked for's policy. Reason being, they don't want to be reasponsible for you not getting the job. If they are responsible, people have sued their former employer - and really... It's just easier to avoid the situation all together by implementing the zipped lip policy.

[FunkyDexter]

they worked here from mmddyy to mmddyy and we would/wouldnot hire them againThat's the law in the UK too but it's not realy adhered to in small companies. They generally won't put anything negative in a letter but if a prospective employer or agency phones up and asks about you they're likely to get an honest opinion.

[Lord Orwell]

they are allowed to say anythign they want in letters. If you sign a release they are allowed to contact and ask personal questions, such as "were you a good worker"

[FunkyDexter]

Not in the UK. By default they can only give the details of your employment. I'm not sure if you could sign a release (a contract cannot supersede an act of government in the UK so it depends whether the law in question is an act of government, most of our laws aren't) but you'd have to sign it with the company you were going from rather than going to and I've never heard of anyone doing so.

Truth is though, most companies don't seem to bother checking references anyway in my experience. Apart from anythin they're so easily faked. Just give your mates address (I've known people who've done that). Not a course of action I'd advise because it's technically fraud but it does mean that references really aren't worth much.

[Lord Orwell]

that's why the letters are used sometimes. I could conceivably have a few different cell phones and one of them would be for references and i would give my own reference.

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah, phone references are even worse than letters for faked references. Provided it's answered with an official sounding greeting you'll assume it's legit. At least with a letter you'd expect to see headed paper but that's not hard to fake.

But it doesn't even really need to be faked. You're a company , you've found the employee you think you want, you write of for their references and don't hear back for a week or so. Do you not emplyee the guy you've found at that point or do you wait a while longer? Probably you wait, but for how long? References are pretty much the last thing that happens in the process and should certainly only be requested after an offer has been made and accepted so it's quite likely that the guy will have started before it becomes a suspicious delay, and by that point you've made up your own mind about him.

[Hack]

So, I've read everyone's posts.

I have a question for you: Which way are you leaning? Stay or go?

[Lord Orwell]

that may be true Funky, but corporate policies around here are funny. There is a no-fault firing law in indiana(US) where they don't have to even have a reason to let you go, and if they determine there is something wrong with your application a manager may be required to fire you due to corporate policy.

[FunkyDexter]

Hi Hack, I decided to go in the end. I thought long and hard and decided that, although I know there'd be opportunities openif I chose to move on in a year or two's time, this opportunity wouldn't be and it really does look like like a good 'un. Also, I've got plenty 'what if I'd done that' type regrets in my life already, don't want to add another one.

Disturbingly, Shaggy posted his post about 1 hour after I'd confirmed it to my manager and perfectly articulated all the reasons I was in doubt about going, damn him. I guess we must just share some weird ass telepathic hippy liberal link:bigyello:

The contract is signed and returned, the notice has been given to my current company, the die is cast. I gave my current company 2 months notice instead of 4 weeks to make it as easy as possible for them to find a decent replacement. Then I worked out, 'hang on, that's cost me about £600 in delayed pay increase'. Ah, the price of a concience :o.

[FunkyDexter]

There is a no-fault firing law in indiana(US) where they don't have to even have a reason to let you go That sucks! Mind you, I think discovering you'd faked your references or falsified your application would probably get you canned here to, I just doubt they ever would find out because they don't follow up rigorously enough. That's why we keep finding out convicted paoedophiles have been hired as primary school caretakers over here, becuase nobody bothers to check.:ehh:

[nemaroller]

that may be true Funky, but corporate policies around here are funny. There is a no-fault firing law in indiana(US) where they don't have to even have a reason to let you go, and if they determine there is something wrong with your application a manager may be required to fire you due to corporate policy.
It's commonly referred to as 'At-will' employment - basically stating you're both free and intelligent parties, no one's holding a gun to your head, as long as no one violates any discrimination statutes - and no explicit or implied contracts are in effect - you may severe the relationship at any time.

The implied part is why most all employers now have a 'Employment is at-will. You may be terminated for any reason.' clause in their employment handbook and as part of their offer letters.

[Hack]

that may be true Funky, but corporate policies around here are funny. There is a no-fault firing law in indiana(US) where they don't have to even have a reason to let you go, and if they determine there is something wrong with your application a manager may be required to fire you due to corporate policy.The same is true in Michigan as well.