Protest Moderation

[JungleMan]

look below to see what i have to say

Change your avatar to a black square, change your signature to that to protest moderation. O yea and if we all decide to leave for a better place

Anyone want to join me in my protest, feel free.

[zmerlinz]

quite a few people have black avatars, it is like the black band on an arm thing . There are lots of people that feel strongly about this subject at the minute

[Matthew Gates]

Won't you drop this already? Whether you protest or not, John needs moderators to help him. John is a busy man and can't always be around for us when we need him to do something like close a thread or something.

Martin and Megatron are more active than Serge and Aaron, but they will all help you when you need it. Can't you respect them as they have you? They haven't done a whole lot to you, have they? I mean, Martin saw my point in seeing that some Chit Chat posts need to be..a bit seen further and determined whether to be closed or not. And Martin made me see that he closed the thread for parksie's actions, not for "rape". But he has re-opened it now..I think, or at least, has left it opened. Just let them be to do their jobs.

Do you really think that changing your avatar and signature is going to hurt them in anyway? It's just making you look stupid. So quit this non-sense and give them a chance.

In any country, you may get a leader that you may not like, but you have no control to put him out of power. When you protest, what are you actually doing? That isn't going to stop that person from becoming whatever. Because it's not only you, it's millions of others too. But after a while, you just go along with it, and see how things are and then you eventually learn to live along with the way it is.

[SteveCRM]

I don't really understand the avatar thing...I don't think we will get rid of the moderators either. But what annoyed me was that Martin just closed a fairly tame thread compared to many others. I think they should be looking for things such as a fight or a person like nukem. Not just closing a seemingly tame thread...no big deal with mods though

[Matthew Gates]

Originally posted by SteveCRM
I don't really understand the avatar thing...I don't think we will get rid of the moderators either. But what annoyed me was that Martin just closed a fairly tame thread compared to many others. I think they should be looking for things such as a fight or a person like nukem. Not just closing a seemingly tame thread...no big deal with mods though

Nope Steve. Martin explained that the reason he closed the thread was because of the way parksie was acting towards Martin, not because of the "rape" deal.

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...threadid=90227

Martin had said to just stop talking about the rape thingy, I think. Doesn't seem as he intended to close it, just told everyone to stop. Than parksie got...

Originally posted by parksie
I am so gonna kick your arse if you're serious. C'mon, this is CHIT CHAT for crap's sake!

All pissed and stuff. This made Martin mad a bit, but since Martin has the power to, instead of talking bad, he acted more mature and closed the thread, I guess.


I don't get it. What are you guys so against moderators for? Is it because you weren't chosen? And exactly what would you do if you were chosen? Would you like the fact that people hate you because your a moderator?

The only power you get, I believe is:

• Ability to have all options to do to posts (Close, Delete, Move, etc. etc.)
• Edit people's posts (they know not to abuse this at all and they won't need to use this since John censored words out)
• A moderator forum just for them

It's about the only power they got. They can't change anything. So I don't see why you guys act like this. Are you all jealous?
You all must also realize, they are all over 20 years old, and have been with VB-World for 2+ years and have all been very helpful, shown respect towards everyone on these boards, and have changed a lot of people's lives (basically by sharing all the knowledge with them). And the funny thing is, most of you all are 18-30 years old and you are acting like this? Just quit all the bull*****, if you have a problem with the moderators, they aren't going to leave because of you, and I'm sure you aren't going to leave for them, but if you can't stand moderators, go somewhere else, no one's forcing you to stay here.

My 0.02¢, because it's becoming annoying in how the way you're all acting.

[Megatron]

jbtennisman:

Moderation makes these forums more mature. I find advertisments and "junk" threads in the professional forums all the time, and they should not be there. If there we no moderators, we would be letting these things slip by, and pretty soon, the professional forums will be basically the same as the chat forum.

[Matthew Gates]

Originally posted by Megatron
jbtennisman:

Moderation makes these forums more mature. I find advertisments and "junk" threads in the professional forums all the time, and they should not be there. If there we no moderators, we would be letting these things slip by, and pretty soon, the professional forums will be basically the same as the chat forum.

Ummm...that's already happened Megatron .
But now that there are moderators, they can stop what's currently going on .

[Serge]

I have to tell you something. I have been watching this discussion for a while about this "moderation sucks" thing and it looks very childish to me. People are pissed with moderators closing threads. Sometimes those people are not even the same people who participated in the discussion that was closed. I believe Marty has earned the reputation to be a real guru on these forums and he will be a good moderator, just give him a chance.

Also, about this "We will leave forums if we have moderators."
These forums are primarilly for VB programming and other programming languages/technolgies and people are mostly here for knowledge exchange not chit chat, although I'm not excluding people who like to chat and there is nothing wrong with it. But merely threaten about leaving is really immature. Nobody is saying that once we are moderators, we are going to tell you what to do, how to think etc. The point was simply to make people to understand that some chit chat discussions have gone out of hand.

I believe I have contributed a lot to these forums and I never asked anything in return. Making me a moderator was an honor that I have excepted.

So the buttom line is that there is no place in here for ultimatums. We are here to help each other and SURE if you'r here only to chat, you better find another place to have "dirty" chats. And by "dirty", I don't mean talk about sex, its the offensive remarks that some people will not simply reply to.

Just my $0.02

[Emo]

To tell you the truth... I don't really care if there are mods here... I'm just here if I need some help with some code or stuff like that... it's true I also post a lot in chit chat, but I mostly come here for help about something....

I'm a Admin/Mod to 3 other Forums on the net so I don't really care about this "Moderation Sucks" thing...

My ¢.2

-Emo

[JungleMan]

Maybe I should say "Chit Chat Moderation Sucks"...because Chit Chat is really the place where we dont' have to watch what we say..

a lot of people are going to be mad if u guys start editing out every "inappropriate" thing we say...so just don't start on that and we'll be fine with the mod thing..

and tell me, oh so wonderful mods, where is RyeBread's post count? And why is mine only 106 when it was once 111??? eh?

[parksie]

Matt - you can understand why I got stressed though - the moderators should MODERATE not CENSOR. Also - how is it mature to just close the thread rather than taking it up with me? It's the same equivalent of running away from a fight rather than standing up for yourself.

[barrk]

Good distinction between moderation and censorship, Parksie!

We should all give the mods a chance to do their job.....i.e. look into mysteries like dissapearing threads....instead of assuming that they are the cause. Let them help us......until they start arbitrarily locking post or censoring people....we should give them a chance. The moderator who started all this hoopla has been made aware of how we feel and given a reply as to why he did what he did. Don't you think we can forgive his actions and move on from here?

If you treat them with respect they will do the same to you...if you treat them like the enemy that's just who they'll become!

I don't think Chit-Chat needs to be censored but the site does need to be moderated for the obvious reasons....posts dissapearing, people promoting their own businesses in here, posting problems, etc. Plus, I would like some recourse when someone like nukem comes in and starts to wreak havoc.

Can't we all just be vigilant against censorship without becoming paranoid about it? I don't think being against censorship is immature.

Just my two cents worth!

I do have a question in response to Serge's post though. When I first came in here it was to find an answer to a specific Visual Basic problem. I have since used it as a place to chat when I need a breath of fresh air and relaxation. I use it almost exclusively for that purpose now.

Was the comment "....SURE if you'r here only to chat, you better find another place....." directed at me? Would you prefer I didn't use VB-World in this manner?

[Megatron]

Barrk,

I believe Serge was referring to the "dirty" or immature chat, and I'm agreeing with him on this one. If that is the type of chat that people want, then this isn't the place for it. There are a lot of other clean and mature topics for people to talk about, but, again, I'm pretty sure that this won't happen, because it would be nearly impossible to keep all topics mature. For this reason, we need moderators, and so far, we haven't had any problems except for the one time, which has be well explained.

Some people are also starting to get this idea about "censorship." Where did this come from? What threads do you believe were moderated?

With regard to the "missing posts," they're probably a result of either a) A user deleting a thread, b) A moderator deleting a thread, or c) A forum bug. Those people to claim they lost a significent amount of posts or think there is a missing thread, PM me, and I'll see if I can find anything about it.

[HarryW]

What is it with this 'maturity' thing? That's not the issue, the issue was that a) we don't want the forums filled with spam and b) some people are getting offended by things said in chit-chat. That's nothing to do with maturity. Why should everyone have to act so mature? Live a little.

My guess at what the problem is with the 'if you don't like it go somewhere else' line, is that people have made a lot of friends here in chit-chat, and if they go somewhere else those people won't be around. Internet communities are fragile unfortunately.

[Megatron]

HarryW,

You have misunderstood me (due to an error on my part). By mature I meant non-dirty and non-offensive topics.

[tumblingdown]

Originally posted by Megatron
HarryW,

You have misunderstood me (due to an error on my part). By mature I meant non-dirty and non-offensive topics.

!


td.

[Matthew Gates]

Originally posted by tumblingdown

Originally posted by Megatron
HarryW,

You have misunderstood me (due to an error on my part). By mature I meant non-dirty and non-offensive topics.

!


td.

Yes, it's true, he does make mistakes, after all .

[tumblingdown]

Not what i meant, and you know it ;-)




td.

[Megatron]

Please explain

[denniswrenn]

I think with the ! he is saying that enforcing inoffensive and clean comments is too much cencorship...

But I could be wrong...

[Megatron]

Where is everyone getting this idea about censorship? As far as I know, no posts have been edited yet.

[denniswrenn]

Well, looks like you don't know much (joke)


Most of the stuff toward the bottom are just jokes I think, but the first two that were edited were really edited......

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...threadid=92455

[Matthew Gates]

You know what I don't understand? Why all of you made the four moderators enemies. Search through all the moderators (Aaron Young, Serge, MartinLiss, and Megatron (no specific order)) and take a look at all their accomplishments. They have been so helpful to everyone, and they deserve to be moderators, and after helping everyone out, as they still do, this is how your treating them? No respect! Cruel, cruel world .

I'm only 16½, but I am ashamed of all of you! Especially the people that are older than me! The adults! Katie! Mike! Kovan! jpbtennisman!? Why are you acting so immature? Black avatars? What are you guys (and girls) thinking? Are you in a gang? How dare you treat people like this, you know better! Katie, I know you wouldn't let your kids (well..at a time, when they were younger, I guess..) treat anyone else with disrespect, as a mother doesn't want her children to be mean, but rather, respect others and get the same respect back.

Now, all of you have been really nasty to the moderators. And you notice? NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN NASTY BACK! They've only tried to talk through and settle things with you, but NONE of you want that. You all want there to be no moderators! I think moderators was a good idea, and I know that most of you, if you really look at it are pretty glad too, because if a moderator sees someone posting some of the same questions three times in a row, maybe by pressing submit by accident or whatever, they can delete it. Or advertisements! People posting 5+ threads about something stupid, moderators are there to take care of it!

All this is getting annoying! What don't you understand? John said he needed moderators to help him. Why would he get rid of the moderators when he needs the help. So quit complaining, what's done is done, and although, it can be undone, it will not.

And obviously, for the people that say, "my avatar will stay black until there are no more moderators in Chit Chat", well guess what? Guess they are staying black until your time is done on the VBForums.

No offense, but the black avatars are pretty damn stupid. It was cool looking at all the neat avatars people had, very neat animations done and all, but now, there's just black..and boring.

[parksie]

I think I'm being very mature about this - yes, I do have a black avatar but that's only to show support about moderating Chit Chat. Yes I agree, all four of them are extremely knowledgeable and helpful and I don't want them to be enemies - however if they make it their object to cause us trouble then that's all that can happen.

[Matthew Gates]

They are only doing what John asked them to do parksie. If John asked you to do something, and you were to confirm it and then not do what you were told, wouldn't that make you look bad? Especially to John.

If your going to be mad at someone, be mad at John, but just know, he is the administrator, don't mess with him .
As I believe..you ran into conflict with him before, Mike?

And the moderators can just email John and tell him specifically the members that are bothering them, and John will say something. I doubt he'll ban you at first, because he's a nice guy, but he will warn you.

Just let them do their jobs.

Why don't you use the live chat on VB-World Yahoo! Groups to talk dirty? You could do it live .

Would have to set up something, I'm sure you guys could do it. It's not like the chat is censored.

[parksie]

No, it's a difference between being ASKED, and having it IMPOSED on us, as I said before

Only a minor conflict but we sorted that out

Yes he can warn me, but I don't think he'll do that until he decides to talk to me

I plan to - their job is to moderate, not totally remove.

We could, but Katie can't get onto that and without her it's a bit pointless really.

Also pointless because then if you're offline you miss loads. This way you don't miss a comment.

[NotLKH]

Alright, Now My official opinion.

I once said

Originally posted by NotLKH


My concept of a WebSite is its an asset. If Its functionality
decreases over time, then its worth as an asset also decreases.

-Lou

My viewpoint has not changed.

This website is Johns Asset. So, whatever the memebers say or do is a reflection on the value of this product. If we go around and express ourselves as potty mouthed{oooohhh} ignoramousus, instead of the intellignt vb programmers that we truly are, why shouldn't we be kicked out, ostracized, "censored", etc...

Now, out of the goodness of Johns heart, {of course, there must be something about money involved somewhere} he has given us VB_World. I think its great. If you didn't think so, you wouldn't be here. And by the way, {And I'm not picking on you, parksie, but you Are the most predominate in this "Moderator Protest"}, VB_Forums can live without all of you.

Now, as to why we should have moderators. Well, We've always had moderators. His name was John. And, as Megatron has pointed out Many times, he is only One Man. Can't be everywhere, anytime, no ser ee bob. So, We all tried to moderate, Esp when newbies were getting on some of our nerves. {BTW: I was the first who objected to "Requiring newbies" to conform to the rules. And, now, isn't it ironic that the protesters are protesting such actions against themselves, when most of them were all for "Rules for new Members". {I have to admit, Parksie has stayed consistent}}

Things have been pretty much OK around here, but there have been certain things we have all stumbled across. For instance, this happened not too long ago.

I came across this exchange while it was occuring. {These people shall, in this recoginitive redisplay of posting actions, be nameless}

Originally posted by MR_WHOEVER_ISN'T_MR_X

Don't use the DUMB WAY when you can go smartass way

end sub

-Thats pretty Innocent.
And Then

Originally posted by WHO_KNOWS_BUT_I'M_NOT_TELLING
I don't see your 'smartass'-way has something to do with arrays, MR_WHOEVER_ISN'T_MR_X?

but, then again.. i'm just a girl.
;-)

And Then, This was posted:

Originally posted by MR_WHOEVER_ISN'T_MR_X

Man, what are ya ****en Norway *****....

Now, I followed up with:

Originally posted by NotLKH
................And, clean up your language. Its just plain offensive for this forum.

-Lou [/B]

Now, If what your saying is the truth, This could have taken place in Chit-Chat, and as far as you're concerned, should remain unmoderated. This was not a case of mistaken "Humor", and I have no Idea what happened behind the scenes, except the One who Hollared "Norway *****" was MIA for a week.

No matter what the forum, Don'tcha think he deserved it?
If you owned a website such as this, wouldn't you "Moderate" such instances?

-Lou

[parksie]

Hate to be the one to break it to you, but I'm definitely not the most vocal! I was never "for" these "rules", I preferred them more as guidelines to make your questions more likely to be answered. In most cases I try and keep to the same things I suggested.

In the MAIN forums which is basically (heh ) what VB-World is for, moderation IS a good thing in order to keep the quality up. In Chit Chat it really isn't necessary. It comes back to if you feel offended - tell the person that said it! Most of us are more than reasonable.

PS: I'm only one man and I'm everywhere

[NotLKH]

{I have to admit, Parksie has stayed consistent}

I apparently wasn't clear, there. I know, that you were more for the "Suggestion only, not required!", sorry!

However, Chit-Chat. Definetely, here if nowhere else, we should be held responsible for our actions. And yes, that means we should have a moderator. Why Not?

You, Me, Spetnik, whoever, we are all out to be known as someone who respects each other and acknowledges respect for others. Yes, joking around is something we like to do, and as Meg says, why are we talking about censorship? BUT, a fact of life is this, how we present ouselves in one arena of public domain, influences others in their viewpoint of ourselves in other public domains. Whats this KOVAK MUM thing all about? Why is it happening? Is that what you want to be Known For? And, BTW, Legally, its slandar, since its being presented in a public forum.
Ok, HA HA. But its really disgusting. And IF, {Which hasn't happened yet, and I don't think it will} the moderators surgically remove such things, will we be the worse for It? or the better?

BTW, we are PROGRAMMERS! Why stoop to such a level. Isn't it possible that you'ld like to put on your resume that you were a member of VB_WORLD with Pride? Or would you rather hide the fact, esp if you conducted yourselves in a way that your mothers would hide in shame for.

Just my Opinion

-Lou

[parksie]

OK no problem

Although this site is technically under UK administration, and US hosting, therefore those cultures have the final say, and if (for example) someone from India finds content offensive because of cross-cultural differences, then it's their problem.

Actually my mum probably wouldn't be surprised what I post on here because that's mostly what I actually say in real life

[beachbum]

While you're protesting moderation why not protest against defamation laws, copyright laws, apprehended violence orders etc etc... And if u can't see the irony then consider how much free speech you would have if free speech wasnt 'moderated' in some way. You will always have that paradox. Imagine for example someone spamming the Chit chat with offensive images or text. Sure you can say you could ignore but what if they posted your personal details, credit card numbers, photos of you on your web cam etc. Moderation exists in all forms of communication whether through law or societal constraints. In fact u could argue that some degree of conformity is necessary for the functioning of society and for freedom and individuality to exist.

But, in regard to this argument i figure that it is more like a bandwagon than a serious protest. And i suspect that the moderators are not the over dominant megalomaniacs they are made out to be. So, ur definition of moderation may differ from the moderators and u have every right to protest but it seems like quite a silly effort. You really havent got it so bad!

In Chit Chat it really isn't necessary. It comes back to if you feel offended - tell the person that said it! Most of us are more than reasonable

Do u not see the irony here? You are in effect using the group's standards to set the terms of the appropriate topics. This is only different from the current moderation in that you have less ability to control the outcome.

Regards
Stuart

[parksie]

You are in effect using the group's standards to set the terms of the appropriate topics. This is only different from the current moderation in that you have less ability to control the outcome.

Isn't that the idea? That's the whole definition of democracy - it's the group rather than the individual. I'm not classing the admins or moderators as dictators because they're not, but they should respect that there is a group here with its own standards - sure, they need a tweak here and there and I'm sure the mods can help with this. However there are more effective and more friendly ways to do it than randomly and without any warning editing peoples' posts.

[beachbum]

Yes but you are a group of guests in THEIR "house" and so u have less say. You could go to "your own house" if u want to set the standards. And remember that the role of leaders is to aim the whole ppl of a democracy in the right direction. Left to their own devices the popn may very well vote for no taxes and the death penalty for shoplifting. Is this what u want?

[NotLKH]

To Quote Parksie:

, but they should respect

I'm sorry. Whose site is this?
-Lou

[parksie]

A fair point, but it's not really the same - you go to someone else's house for a party, for example, and there may be 80% of the guests talking about something the host may find distasteful. It's happened like that for years and years.

Also, it *does* say talk about anything

And yes, the death penalty for shoplifting sounds like a bloody good ide a

[NotLKH]

Hello,

I'm just here at the curtusy of John.

His Decisions Rule.

Sorry about that.

You lose.

-Lou

[parksie]

Originally posted by NotLKH
To Quote Parksie:

, but they should respect

I'm sorry. Whose site is this?
-Lou

Theirs. But considering we've been doing this for over a year now they could at least bring us down gently. The internet may be anonymous but you can't disguise emotions.

[parksie]

Originally posted by NotLKH
Hello,

I'm just here at the curtusy of John.

His Decisions Rule.

Sorry about that.

You lose.

-Lou

Please read before posting.

[beachbum]

LOL parksie
I am not trying to denegrate ur views. In fact ur quote:

However there are more effective and more friendly ways to do it than randomly and without any warning editing peoples' posts.

is fair and resonable. Maybe a better form of protest is for ur group to decide upon ur standards and to approach the moderators with ur own methods for solving this impasse. May be more productive.
Regards
Stuart

[parksie]

Originally posted by beachbum
LOL parksie
I am not trying to denegrate ur views. In fact ur quote is fair and resonable. Maybe a better form of protest is for ur group to decide upon ur standards and to approach the moderators with ur own methods for solving this impasse. May be more productive.
Regards
Stuart

We already tried that and it was unsuccessful. They don't share our viewpoint so some of the main humour-members of this site are beginning to drift away...oh unless you don't spend any time in the affected forum you'd know exactly who they were.

Not pointing fingers at anyone, but if people want to make comments about our standards in Chit Chat they should at least be a regular poster and read the threads and understand the people behind the usernames.