Windows Vista delayed until second quarter of 2007

[esposito]

You may find the following news of some interest:

The wait for Microsoft's delayed Windows Vista could be even longer than expected, according to a research report issued this week.

In March, Microsoft announced that widespread distribution of Windows Vista would be delayed until early 2007. Now, research firm Gartner Group has reported that the operating system might not be fully available until at least the second quarter of next year.

"Microsoft's track record is clear," the firm says. "It consistently misses target dates for major operating system releases. We don't expect broad availability of Windows Vista until at least 2Q07 (second quarter of 2007), which is nine to 12 months after Beta 2."

Considering that Vista will break compatibility with a lot of VB6 apps, I couldn't be happier about this news.

By the way, you can read the entire article on

http://news.com.com/Gartner+predicts...05.html?tag=nl

[mendhak]

I don't see how their tactics differ any from those of the so called "Web 2.0" products.

I've been forming a cumulative definition of Web 2.0 over the past few months:
1. Always remain in Beta. This way, all your bugs will be accepted and forgiven.
2. Use AJAX. To hell with security, just use AJAX. It impresses people. That's what matters.
3. Misspell the name of your product.

The list will grow continuously and at some point in the future I will present it to the world to ignore.

[NoteMe]

You forgot:


4. Rounded corners.
5. Forget to make it work in all browsers.
6. New functinality before fixing the old one.




And the list could go on for ever..
- ØØ -

[Techno]

yeh well this is good - to make sure that everything works as good as it should, as always. the requests come from customers, you guys, therefore we have to fullfil that.

it wouldve been released on time if it werent for the requests.... you can't have it every way you want

trust me, it will be worth the wait

[sheikh78]

Will it? I mean how is Vista more productive than XP at the moment? A few glassy effects, maybe a little faster but underneath it all its pretty close to xp's features.

[esposito]

Will it? I mean how is Vista more productive than XP at the moment? A few glassy effects, maybe a little faster but underneath it all its pretty close to xp's features.

They say it will be more secure than XP. The truth is, a lot of VB6 applications will just crash under Vista in the name of security.

[sheikh78]

I agree. I don't think that they updated any security features. I tried the beta....has very little security advancements than xp.

[Kasracer]

Will it? I mean how is Vista more productive than XP at the moment? A few glassy effects, maybe a little faster but underneath it all its pretty close to xp's features.

It's more efficient than XP and built on new code. Most benchmarks on Beta 2 show it out performaning XP.

It also has more advanced encryption techniques, the ability to use other devices like thumb drives as ram (if you're using a dual channel thumb drive you'll notice a difference ), drivers are outside of the kernel space so if a driver fails or crashes, you'll be able to continue working without a BSOD. Check out this great article as to why Vista won't suck.

They say it will be more secure than XP. The truth is, a lot of VB6 applications will just crash under Vista in the name of security.

No they will not crash in the name of security but in the name of ignorance on the developer's half. Almost all VB6 applications that won't work correctly in Vista will be because they're doing things they shouldn't be doing like saving files in System directories and other common problems that require security credentials.

Depending on how an app is developed, VB6 and .Net apps will face the same issue.

I agree. I don't think that they updated any security features. I tried the beta....has very little security advancements than xp.

Are you kidding me? The encryption is more robus, faster and more secure than XP. You also have to supply security credentials before doing anything that could significantly alter the system (much like OS X, Linux, BSD, etc...). The Firewall is better as well than XP's with more features.

[sheikh78]

I have a clearer understanding of Vista....I didn't realize all of that was happening. Well I'm going to wait till vista comes out....

[Techno]

the thing alot of people dont understand is this:

they think they would know all when they do not even know the product to the full extent.
people assume too much - you make an "as"s out of yo"u" and "me"
alot of things have been changed for the better, as always with any MS OS - the newer, the better, the faster. The OS's dont "suck" but lets not get into a flame war as it would be stupid!

its the way it is. Remember - it is still under Beta and not all the functionality is there yet, so be patient like good kids!

And kasracer: good job

[esposito]

No they will not crash in the name of security but in the name of ignorance on the developer's half. Almost all VB6 applications that won't work correctly in Vista will be because they're doing things they shouldn't be doing like saving files in System directories and other common problems that require security credentials.

SendKeys was a standard VB6 statement. I simply used it to move the focus from a TextBox to another or simulate the pressure of the F1 key to launch the help file. Not only will Sendkeys not work under Vista but it will also cause the VB6 application to crash.

Vista will make no difference between the harmless use of SendKeys within the same application and the potentailly dangerous use of it to interface with external applications. It will prevent the statement (and the application) from working in both cases.

How can you say that (ignorant) VB6 developers should not have used SendKeys when it was an official VB6 statement?

[si_the_geek]

Many people have always advised against SendKeys due to the "random" nature of it - you cannot be certain that it is going to send the key to the correct target. It would be relatively easy to write a sub (eg: MySendKeys) which uses API calls to ensure the target is the right one.

Just like with GoTo, having an item in the language does not mean it should necessarily be used.

[esposito]

Many people have always advised against SendKeys due to the "random" nature of it - you cannot be certain that it is going to send the key to the correct target. It would be relatively easy to write a sub (eg: MySendKeys) which uses API calls to ensure the target is the right one.

Just like with GoTo, having an item in the language does not mean it should necessarily be used.

Why not prevent it from working only when it addresses external applications?

Did you know that SendKeys does not work even in .NET?

The code:

System.Windows.Forms.SendKeys.Send

does not work under Vista, and you can't say it's obsolete technology.

[Kasracer]

Why not prevent it from working only when it addresses external applications?

Remember, VB6 uses the VB Runtimes. When it uses SendKeys, it basically simulates pressing keys on the keyboard. How is a DLL going to know whether it's going to go to the application calling it or not? It can't know.

does not work under Vista, and you can't say it's obsolete technology.

It's a bad technique not an obsolete technology.

[esposito]

Remember, VB6 uses the VB Runtimes. When it uses SendKeys, it basically simulates pressing keys on the keyboard. How is a DLL going to know whether it's going to go to the application calling it or not? It can't know.

It should be up to the operating system (not to the VB6 runtime) to distinguish whether the SendKeys statement affects the application calling it or an external one.

Since Vista can detect the SendKeys statement, (so much so that it can block it) it should not take much to detect also the application calling it and intervene only in case of interaction with an external program.

It's a bad technique not an obsolete technology.

It's a technique created by Microsoft and VB6 programmers have been stupid to rely on it.

[Kasracer]

Since Vista can detect the SendKeys statement, (so much so that it can block it) it should not take much to detect also the application calling it and intervene only in case of interaction with an external program.

That's a bad idea. First off, SendKeys simulates KeyPresses. By it doing that, it's sending keys to the OS as if a Keyboard pressed them. It's hard to detect what application is calling them except through some very complex reflection that would ultimately be buggy (your app calls the VB6 runtime which calls the win32 api, that would make it difficult tot rack what app is calling the function).

Secondly, that would also make it easy to trick. I could make my application appears to be internet explorer and send keys to IE.

What your suggesting would allow VB6 to run with SendKeys but it sitll has the same security hole.

[esposito]

That's a bad idea. First off, SendKeys simulates KeyPresses. By it doing that, it's sending keys to the OS as if a Keyboard pressed them.

What do you mean? According to what you said, it seems that the OS is unable to understand whether the key was pressed programmatically or by means of a keyboard. So, do you think that Vista is going to prevent users from pressing keyboard keys?

Moreover, what sense does it make to suppress SendKeys and allow the programmer to get the same (potentially dangerous) results by resorting to the API?

[Kasracer]

What do you mean? According to what you said, it seems that the OS is unable to understand whether the key was pressed programmatically or by means of a keyboard.

No that's not what I said at all. What I was saying it's difficult to track what application is calling it as it can become complex with reflection and it may not be possible. I never said the OS couldn't tell the different between a hardware signal sent to it or an API call.

So, do you think that Vista is going to prevent users from pressing keyboard keys?

..... You're starting to become a troll (or at least it sounds that way) with Vista because you still use VB6 and your coding habbits won't survive much longer. Seriously, let's try to keep the comments constructive. This adds nothing to the thread and attempts to insult my answer.

Moreover, what sense does it make to suppress SendKeys and allow the programmer to get the same (potentially dangerous) results by resorting to the API?

The API has been designed to give programmers access to just about anything they need to do in the OS. It should have access to do anything.

In all honestly, SendKeys should really be avoided if possible

[sheikh78]

Ok can we just end this conversation about VB6 SendKeys? Oh and Happy Birthday Kasracer!

[esposito]

No that's not what I said at all. What I was saying it's difficult to track what application is calling it as it can become complex with reflection and it may not be possible.

Which seems to be six of one and half a dozen of the other. It is hard to believe that Vista cannot detect which application is calling SendKeys. On the contrary, I am sure it can and, at that point, it should not take much to block SendKeys only if the the result affects an external application.

You're starting to become a troll (or at least it sounds that way) with Vista because you still use VB6 and your coding habbits won't survive much longer. Seriously, let's try to keep the comments constructive. This adds nothing to the thread and attempts to insult my answer.

You were the one who had called the VB6 programmer "ignorant." Besides, the fact that VB6 coding habits will not survive much longer is a personal opinion. Just remember that SendKeys is also an official statement of the .NET syntax.

The API has been designed to give programmers access to just about anything they need to do in the OS. It should have access to do anything.

So, Microsoft deactivated SendKeys to prevent the programmer from getting a certain outcome and, at the same time, they allowed him or her to get the same, identical outcome resorting to the API. I'm sorry, but I still can't grasp the logic.

In all honestly, SendKeys should really be avoided if possible

Obviously, in future applications nobody will ever use SendKeys again. The problem exists with the applications that have already been put in circulation and that now need to be updated.

[sheikh78]

Ok Like I said before people:

Ok can we just end this conversation about VB6 SendKeys?

FOLLOW IT!

[Gameunreal]

this is like... soo off topic..

cheers
patrick

[yrwyddfa]

Considering that Vista will break compatibility with a lot of VB6 apps, I couldn't be happier about this news.

Precisely why I'm now in a position where I will forced to adopt .net. Perhaps not a bad thing for a dinosaur such as me . . . .

Downloaded Vista 64bit Customer beta with Office 7 beta, and the .Net Express editions: everything seems to work fine.

M$ have certainly got the non-IT people interest, too: My wife and kids love it! Well they like the newer majong, and solitaire anyway