Proof the universe is not infinite

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 6th, 2002, 03:05 PM

*Warning alot of thoeretical stuff in this post concerning Aliens, and a finite or infinite univers*

Ok i guess you didn't heed my warning if you are reading this. Anyways a friend and i at school deduced that the universe MUST be finite. heres why.

If the universe is infinite then there must be an infinite amount of civilizations, these civilizations must range technologically in relativity to us from being infinitely more powerful than us to being infinitely less powerful then us. Everything is relative, for example the inhabitants of the surface of our sun are infinitely less powerful than us, however an advanced alien civilization could regard us as we regard the inhabitants of our sun (nothing). Therefore since there is an infinite number of civilizations ranging on a technology scale form being infinitely less powerfull than us to infinitely more powerful than us, these civilizations must have mixed feelings on the planet earth. in an infinite amount of civilizations the way in which our continents our arranged form the worst insult imaginable, or the TV noise we have been emitting over the past 50 years has pissed them off so much that an infinite amount of infinitely more advanced civilizations should have destroyed the planet earth an infinite amount of times in its history. If the universe is finite then this would not happen because there are only a finite amount of civilisations and we may not piss any of them off enough for them to destoy us completely

Another interesting possibility if the universe was infinite is that there is an infinite amount of civilisations exactly like earth which have evolved exactly in the same manner as earth and which well continue to evolve exactly like earth for all the infinitness of time

**SteveCRM** · May 6th, 2002, 03:10 PM

tv and radio waves haven't had time to get anywhere, I don't think they've reached our nearest neighboring sun yet. We live on a small planet, maybe the just don't feel like getting in our way? Maybe they understand something we dont' yet, about life, and interference. I thnk the universe is finite, it may be expanding, but still has an end...
but I also think it's possible for space to be cirucular, therefore creating no end.

my 2cents

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 6th, 2002, 03:42 PM

i was just using TV waves as an example. If there are an infinite number of civilizations then an infinite number of civilizations should have noticed us by now, with or without TV and Radio waves.

**SteveCRM** · May 6th, 2002, 03:49 PM

maybe maybe not....because compared to the size of everything, light moves painfully slow so I'm not sure how they would notice us...I have no way of proving my point or yours, so I'll stop here...there are probably other ways of detecting things

Aerials · May 6th, 2002, 03:58 PM

Hmm why would they want to destroy us? Maybe they do not believe in destruction or mayb they dont care

**HarryW** · May 6th, 2002, 04:02 PM

For all intents and purposes, the universe is a sphere with a radius of c*t where c is the speed of light and t is the age of the universe. It is centred on the origin of the Big Bang.

Basically because c*t is equal to the maximum distance from the Big Bang something could have travelled by now.

This is based on a couple of assumptions:

a) the Big Bang theory is right
b) the universe is limited to that region in which energy could possibly exist
c) the speed of light has been constant since the birth of the universe

**SteveCRM** · May 6th, 2002, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by HarryW
c) the speed of light has been constant since the birth of the universe

theres an interresting one

Aerials · May 6th, 2002, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by HarryW
c) the speed of light has been constant since the birth of the universe

Yes that is indeed interesting. What could have caused it to change though

**HarryW** · May 6th, 2002, 04:17 PM

It's one of those things that has been discussed/debated/argued by physicists in recent times. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion on it, but it's another assumption.

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 6th, 2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Aerials
Hmm why would they want to destroy us? Maybe they do not believe in destruction or mayb they dont care

yes some of them would but we are talking an infinite number of races infinitely more technologically advanced than us. If there is an infinite number then the odds of everyone taking a liking to our little blue planet are infinitely small

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 6th, 2002, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by HarryW

a) the Big Bang theory is right

no i am not saying it is right i am saying that the universe is not infinite, my theory doesn't give a **** about the big bang, it just cares whether the universe is infinite or not

b) the universe is limited to that region in which energy could possibly exist

if it wasn't limited to a small area then it would spread out and out until it was gone (in an infinite universe) the basic theory is that we must have either an infinite universe and infinite energy or a finite universe and finite energy, never shall the 2 theories mix.

or maybe i am not getting what exactly you are trying to get at.

c) the speed of light has been constant since the birth of the universe

**HarryW** · May 6th, 2002, 05:24 PM

Um, I think you kind of missed the point of my post.

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 6th, 2002, 05:50 PM

really? i thought it was saying that the theory was based on some assumptions, the only thing i really assumed (I don't exactly know what you mean with the second one) is that the speed of light is always constant

**HarryW** · May 6th, 2002, 05:57 PM

Read my post again. The assumptions are related to what I said in the first part of the post. It's not really much to do with your post.

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 6th, 2002, 06:05 PM

oh ****, sorry

i guess that skipped over me

**JungleMan** · May 6th, 2002, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf_Grey_
*Warning alot of thoeretical stuff in this post concerning Aliens, and a finite or infinite univers*

Ok i guess you didn't heed my warning if you are reading this. Anyways a friend and i at school deduced that the universe MUST be finite. heres why.

If the universe is infinite then there must be an infinite amount of civilizations, these civilizations must range technologically in relativity to us from being infinitely more powerful than us to being infinitely less powerful then us. Everything is relative, for example the inhabitants of the surface of our sun are infinitely less powerful than us, however an advanced alien civilization could regard us as we regard the inhabitants of our sun (nothing). Therefore since there is an infinite number of civilizations ranging on a technology scale form being infinitely less powerfull than us to infinitely more powerful than us, these civilizations must have mixed feelings on the planet earth. in an infinite amount of civilizations the way in which our continents our arranged form the worst insult imaginable, or the TV noise we have been emitting over the past 50 years has pissed them off so much that an infinite amount of infinitely more advanced civilizations should have destroyed the planet earth an infinite amount of times in its history. If the universe is finite then this would not happen because there are only a finite amount of civilisations and we may not piss any of them off enough for them to destoy us completely

Another interesting possibility if the universe was infinite is that there is an infinite amount of civilisations exactly like earth which have evolved exactly in the same manner as earth and which well continue to evolve exactly like earth for all the infinitness of time

You kinda lost me on "if"...

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 6th, 2002, 06:06 PM

this is the kinda **** i think up in english

**rjlohan** · May 6th, 2002, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by HarryW
For all intents and purposes, the universe is a sphere with a radius of c*t where c is the speed of light and t is the age of the universe. It is centred on the origin of the Big Bang.

Basically because c*t is equal to the maximum distance from the Big Bang something could have travelled by now.

Oh that's just crap. Everyhbody knows god farted, and adam and eve were born, simultaneously eradicating dinosaurs from the planet in a giant flame wave (god's a funny bloke) and also causing the alien ships to crash at Roswell.

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 6th, 2002, 07:45 PM

interesting theory of creation, i am sure J4U will love it

**Slaine** · May 7th, 2002, 03:14 AM

Just because the universe is infinite it doesn't mean there are an inifinte number of planets - and therefore there could be only a finite number of civilizations. In fact they may only be one civilisation - Wonder if we will ever find it

**simonm** · May 7th, 2002, 03:47 AM

Gandalf_Grey_

The universe may not be infinite but space might be.

**simonm** · May 7th, 2002, 03:59 AM

honeybee

If the universe really is infinite, how can you be so certain about there being infinite civilizations and their technological advancements?

The logic runs along the lines of this: Given an infinite number of chances, everything possible will happen an infinite number of times.

It doesn't matter how unlikely it is, say a billion to one, it will still happen an infinite number of times since infinity contains an infinity of billions.

**kedaman** · May 7th, 2002, 05:47 AM

Hmm, another useless topic

**Fox** · May 7th, 2002, 06:10 AM

How do you define infinite? If you walk along a sphere your path is infinite isn't it? Same with universe...

(in your theory you didn't pay attention to one fact: Time. Maybe all of these civilizations need an infinite length of time to grow up)

**simonm** · May 7th, 2002, 06:14 AM

How do you define infinite? If you walk along a sphere your path is infinite isn't it? Same with universe...

I think you are describing an unbounded yet finite universe. No one would suggest that the surface area of the earth is infinite yet it is unbounded.

I think that number of spacial dimensions, or the amount of space at the highest dimension, has to be infinite.

**Gandalf_Grey_** · May 7th, 2002, 07:08 AM

How do you define infinite? If you walk along a sphere your path is is infinite isn't it? Same with universe...

(in your theory you didn't pay attention to one fact: Time. Maybe all of these civilizations need an infinite length of time to grow up)

When i say infinite i mean that there is no sphere, it just keeps going and going and going and there is no sphere to walk along

Yes but if there is an infinte number of civilizations some of them may require an infinite amount of time to grow up, but some of them may require only a small amount of time. Read The Dragons Egg and Starquake.

Hmm, another useless topic

I warned you, if you didn't heed my warning then that is your own fault

The universe may not be infinite but space might be.

Agreed, however when i say an infinite universe i mean that the area in wich an infinite number of alien spaceships can travel to see our little blue planet and make an infinite number of descisions regarding whether they should kick our ass or leave us alone or land and do the macarana with Jean Cretien, George Bush and Tony Blair.

**simonm** · May 7th, 2002, 09:21 AM

That's merely an assumption, you do not know for sure if just one more civilization exists other than our Earth. Given that, I find it difficult to believe that the universe is swarming with millions and zillions of creatures other than what I see all day around me.

Well, if the probability of life evolving on any given planet is x, and there are an infinite number of planets, there will be (given an infinite amount of time) an infinite number of planets containing life (no matter how small x is).

However, there probably isn't an infinite number of planets and therefore it's still possible that life is unique to earth.

**simonm** · May 7th, 2002, 09:52 AM

Honeybee

What does "infinite" mean here? Does it mean the universe is theoretically immeasurable or is it practically immeasurable?

He is talking about an actual infinite number of planets in the universe.

It's like the infinity in numbers: If you go on from 0 to 1, from 1 to 2, to 3 and so on, you will keep going and come across numbers which earlier seemed to be infinity. That's just because we do not know where it will end. It does not mean it doesn't end. It might just be ending somewhere, only we do not know where.

Nope, the integers do not end.

Omega is the first integer that cannot be counted up to. It is the limit of the countable integers. To understand why you can't get to it, consider zeno's paradox:

He imagined that an arrow, flying towards it's target should never actually reach it. Because, first it travels half the distance, then it travels half the distance remaining, then travels half the new remaining distance, etc.

I will try to get from zero to one by adding half the remaining difference each time:

0 --> 0.5 --> 0.75 --> 0.875 --> 0.9375 --> 0.96875 ... --> 1

Now substitute each of the above steps with sequential integers:

0 --> 1 --> 2 --> 3 --> 4 --> 5 ... --> Omega

When the first sequence reaches one, the sequence of integers reaches Omega.

**Bonker Gudd** · May 7th, 2002, 09:57 AM

I was thinking about taking up Archery, I don't think I'll bother now.

**simonm** · May 7th, 2002, 10:02 AM

Well, don't let Zeno's paradox put you off

The flaw in Zeno's argument was that, in correspondence to each distance being halved, the time taken to travel that distance doubled.

**CiberTHuG** · May 7th, 2002, 10:42 AM

Wow, quite a useless topic with a very silly initial set of assumptions. I don't think anyone believes there is an inifinite amount of matter or energy in the universe. And I think the c*t thread hit it on the head. The Big Bang is the leading theory, regardless of its form.

As to the void of space being infinite, that depends on who you talk to. I personally don't see a reason why it isn't, but you have to consider the possibility that not only is matter physically spreading through the universe, as is energy, but so is time, and thus space. So the frabic of our universe is spreading out (possibly).

It then begs the question of, what is holding the space/time continuum (if such a thing exists, and we fear it may given how time is affected by space and vice versa). Well, I recently read a interview with Hawkings (sp?). He mentioned the idea of bubbles of time and space springing into existance constantly, but at a level we can never detect. That our own universe may have popped into existance with a big bang of time and space in the living room of some poor sod in another universe. Ofcourse, he never noticed, and we in no way affect his funiture, but here we are. And one day our bubble may collapse and close itself.

So it is possible that the matter and energy that make up what we can descern as our universe is expanding if for no other reason but it was flung out by the initial bang. It is filling the void of space and time which is in turn expanding like a bubble holding a bubble. If matter/energy are not inifinite, you have to wonder is space/time.

As to the idea of ET Civs, which is the brunt of this topic, I once read a great article that figured that once stellar colonization begins, it should sweep through the Milky Way so fast that the fact that we haven't noticed it means it probably hasen't happened. And since it hasen't happened, yet, either we are the ones who will do it (possible because we are alone in the Milky Way) or we are on the cusp of it (it is happening, and we will notice it any day now).

I think it was in a Discover magazine, but I can't find it. If anyone else does, let me know.

**simonm** · May 8th, 2002, 07:41 AM

Also, if you simply try counting from 0 to 1, 1 to 2 and so on, you will stop for a reason other than that there are no numbers. So the Omega business is a L. of B. too.

What are you talking about?

You will stop because in a finite amount of time, you could only count a finite number of integers.

However, it is theoretically possible to count through all the integers to get to Omega:

Say you take one second to count to 1. You get to 2 in an additional half second. To three in an additional quarter second etc.

Thus, for each successive integer, you take half the amount of time to count it. If you add up the time taken, you get the following infinite series:

1 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.125 + 0.0625 ...

Which, as you can see, will converge at 2.

Thus, using this method of halving the amount of time it takes to get to each successive integer, you could count to omega in 2 seconds!

Obivously, we can only do this in theory...

**HarryW** · May 8th, 2002, 09:06 AM

From what I can tell, this Omega thing is basically a theoretical placeholder marking the end of a series (the positive integers) which has no end.

What are you saying, Honeybee? What is your contribution to this? The thread is based on two mutually exclusive possible situations:

a) the universe is infinite
b) the universe is finite

The original poster claimed that (a) was false, which means (b) is true. Nobody has said that (a) is true as far as I am aware. You seem to be very keen on telling everybody how ridiculous (a) is for no particular reason. What gives?

**simonm** · May 8th, 2002, 09:30 AM

Harry

Honeybee went on to question whether we know that integers are infinite (and that they only seem infinite because we don't know where they end):

It's like the infinity in numbers: If you go on from 0 to 1, from 1 to 2, to 3 and so on, you will keep going and come across numbers which earlier seemed to be infinity. That's just because we do not know where it will end. It does not mean it doesn't end. It might just be ending somewhere, only we do not know where.

Honeybee

What I am talking about is this:

I start with 1.
next is 2.
next is 3.
next is 4.

After some time I shall reach 1000.
next is 1001
next is 1002
next is 1003

After some time I reach 10000000
next is 10000001
next is 10000002
next is 10000003

This will go on and on and on, as long as I go on counting. The Omega you are talking about is simply another illusion.

What I am talking about here is sucessively halving the amount of time it takes to move from one integer to the next. If the first integer takes 1 second, you will reach omega in two seconds.

And don't tell me that's not possible. How do you think we get out of Zeno's paradox? Each successive step is completed in half the time of it's predecessor. That is how a infinite sequence of steps can be traversed.

**CiberTHuG** · May 8th, 2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by simonm
Thus, using this method of halving the amount of time it takes to get to each successive integer, you could count to omega in 2 seconds!

And you would use this arbitrary method why?

**simonm** · May 8th, 2002, 10:54 AM

And you would use this arbitrary method why?

If you want to count to the first infinite cardinal in a finite amount of time.

**Cander** · May 8th, 2002, 01:33 PM

huge gaping hole in your logic Gandalf. Just how fast do you think tv and radio waves travel? 50 years and a signal may have traveled less than 1% of our own galaxy.

**HarryW** · May 8th, 2002, 02:09 PM

Well the Milky Way is about 90 thousand light years in diameter, so it would be ~ 0.056%

**CiberTHuG** · May 8th, 2002, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by simonm
If you want to count to the first infinite cardinal in a finite amount of time.

Silly, but I guess that is the point. If you can arbitrarily count each successive number twice as fast as the previous, then why can't you count them all as fast as the last. In other words, you count an infinite number of terms in an infinitely small amount of time, nearly instantaneously.

I guess that is the point of the paradox. It is a baited question, just waiting for someone to point out the obvious. I guess people just like reading mental jism.

**HarryW** · May 9th, 2002, 03:33 AM

Do you disagree with the big bang theory then?

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