Is it essential to be a drug using manic depressive to be a creative genius?

[simonm]

Instigated by what I read in another thread about Jim Morrison, I thought I would launch a new thread to discuss this idea.

It seems to me that when I think back on the lives of the creative genius's that have contributed great works of music, art or literature, they have all been either manic depressives, using a lot of "mind-expanding" drugs or both.

Is this just an idle or a necessary connection?

[simonm]

Well, can anyone think of exceptions to this rule?

[ghost ryder]

zack de la rocha...errrr...me

but yeah i know what u mean...syd barret...kurt cobain...

i cant think of any off-hand

[mendhak]

Being different would probably be a mandatory criteria.
I don't know much about Mozart, but what about Mozart. Was he a manic depressive? or a druggie? or both? (He did contribute to music)

[Gaffer]

well, Mozart was compasing music at 6 years old, which sways the argument toward born genius.

[Bonker Gudd]

Boy George was on drugs and still wrote rubbish

[cafeenman]

Originally posted by Bonker Gudd
Boy George was on drugs and still wrote rubbish

He's just misunderstood. Probably the greatest song writer of all time. Just read these lyrics... you'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll experience a full range of emotions. Or maybe you won't. But only a genius could make you feel this way with so few words.

Downtown we'll drown
We're in our never splendor
Flowers, showers
Who's got the new boy gender

I'll be your baby, I'll be your score
I'll run the gun for you and so much more

I'll tumble 4 ya
I'll tumble 4 ya
I'll tumble 4 ya
I'll tumble 4 you

I'll tumble 4 ya
I'll tumble 4 ya
I'll tumble 4 ya
I'll tumble

[Guv]

You young folks might not know the following.

Cole Porter, Steve Sondheim, Oscar Hammerstein, Jerome Kern, Ira Gershwin, Irving Berlin, Chopin, Strauss, Wagner.

If you do not limit creativity to composers, writers, poets, artists, consider some scientists & mathematicians who were both brilliant and sane.

Einstein, Bohr, Hoyle, Gauss, Fermat, Eddington, Gamov, Asimov (also a writer), Von Neuman.

I do not know much about the others, but Bohr was a world class athlete, had a good sesne of humo, was a ladies man, and a good father and husband who was adored by his family. He and Einstein are considered the two big brains of the 20th century. Einstein was a bit absenminded, but otherwise a social sort of person who had a good marriage for many years, although I think he ended up divorced.

[nishantp]

Originally posted by Gaffer
well, Mozart was compasing music at 6 years old, which sways the argument toward born genius.

True, but i'd lke to point out that he was a manic depressant.

[nishantp]

Originally posted by Guv
Einstein was a bit absenminded, but otherwise a social sort of person who had a good marriage for many years, although I think he ended up divorced.

Err...not particularly good. He married twice, the second time was to a distant cousin. His first wife was educated in his field, so he could discuss things with her. But he was never home, and when he was, he was working away at his equations. She was highly neglected, and they divorced. His second wife supported him in his pursuit science, but had no backround in the field. But that marriage fell apart as well. Also, he was VERY absent-minded and disorganized.

I beleive most of this to be true, i did a mini-biography on einstein 2 years ago for school.

[Nucleus]

It is certainly not the rule, here are a list of famous people acknowledged to have serious mental illness. Most noteable being Sir Isaac Newton.

http://www.nami.org/helpline/peoplew.htm

Don't forget John Forbes Nash who was portrayed in 'A Beautiful Mind'.

[rjlohan]

Here's something to think about.

Third Eye (by TOOL)
"Prologue" (Bill Hicks talks about drugs)

"See, I think drugs have done some good things for us, I really do. And if you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a favor, go home tonight, take all your albums, all your tapes, and all your CDs, and burn 'em. 'Cause you know what? The musicians who made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the year....[Bong noise] Real ****in' high on drugs."

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all of one consciousness, sharing ourselves subjectively. There's no such thing as death; life is only a dream, and we're a machination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."

"It's not a war on drugs; it's a war on personal freedom is what it is, okay? Keep that in mind at all times. Thank you."

[simonm]

Well, I'm thinking more along the lines of creative genius rather than scientific or mathematical genius for this thread.

And, whilst I don't know much about classical music, I would say that, as far as popular music of the last 5 decades is concerned, straight, happy people generally produce rubbish.

[Gaffer]

Originally posted by simonm
as far as popular music of the last 5 decades is concerned, straight, happy people generally produce rubbish.

Agreed, with one exception. Can't remember Cliff Richard, Ronan Keating, Tiffany blah balha every making the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end...

The exception? He's not happy, but I believe he's straight...Michael Jackson...

[cafeenman]

And now we're back to child-molesting geniuses again

[simonm]

Taking drugs is optional. Being depressed isn't.

[Guv]

I had a friend who made the following remark, which might be valid.[quote]Because of the money which can be made, there are a lot of very talented people creating and performing Rock & Rap. However, it does not require a lot of talent to create or perform commercially successful Rock & Rap.

BTW: While my friend likes both, I do not care much for Rap, but like some Rock.

[rjlohan]

On the subject of rap - my sister, who was 11 at the time of this story, had my mum do her final year book for primary school. This included interviews from all the kids. 9/10 of them named 'rap' and 'J-Lo' as their favourite music... what's the world coming to? quite obviously, they've never had the pleasure of real music - that ****e is all the TV/Radio play anymore...


Also, I'd have to say, that there was a time when rap was good. They made intelligent lyrics, and decent music. Now, everyone is on the bandwagon for the money, all singing about 'dey hoes' and 'de cash flow' and dey is all ****was.


Wannabes, the lot of 'em.

[Nucleus]

As far as pop music goes including rap, my belief is that it doesn't matter what style you are talking about, you can still judge each piece of music on its musical characteristics such as whether the singer sings in key, how original the melody is (if there is a melody at all?), the lyrics, whether the bass line is funky and made by a real bass guitar and whether the mixing just right to articulate all the instruments and vocals so that the track sounds pleasing to the ear even if played a little louder, and making sure the beat, melody or instruments are not too repetitive. All of these are subjective of course, and just because a track stacks up musically doesn't mean it is going to be a pop hit either.

I use these benchmarks to judge all brands of music from classical to hip hop. I can't relate to the cop shooting brotha thing, but I don't mind some of the good time mix ups by some of the hip hop DJs like grandmaster Flash.

[DragonFly]

Well said Nuc, I couldn't agree more... it is all about how good the music is, not what genre it happens to be in, but I do agree with rj about most of the latest hip hop stuff, very boring indeed to hear constantly about how many bitches some idiot has, and how all everyone wants to be them.... yeah right!!!

[rjlohan]

I'm usually quite reluctant to lable/label (I honestly just don't know how to spell that word any more... ) a style as crap. Although, I'm yet to hear any 'punk' music which in the slightest entertains me - Blink 182 etc. whatever that rubbish is, it's pretty pathetic. Simple musicianship, and pathetic singing...
Usually, I can pretty safely say that if it's in the Top40 charts, it's crap, although I've seen one or two songs of late I like. I enjoyed System of a Down, and for some reason (besides the hot bod) that Shakira grabs me.

[DragonFly]

Well as long as you are keeping an open mind rj hehehe


But it is about the music, although I am not a big fan of rock.. one of my favourite songs in my playlist is The Living End - Pictures in the Mirror, which I love really loud... is just the thing when I am feeling LOUD!!! the guitar riff in it almost has me playing the air guitar... it is way cool

[rjlohan]

Nope... really not my style of guitar... endless 'riffing' in that style doesn't impress me...
I find it interesting the way people often hate rock, or metal, but they'll listen to that sort of music.

I dont think you can claim that some of those bands have decent singers. I find alot of 'metal' bands have really great vocalists. Maybe not everyone's style, but the range and volume some of those guys can get is quite impressive. For example, Rob Flynn, Machine Head. Awesome singer. And combined with very talented guitar-work it's often great music, albeit a bit loud for some.

but that Living End stuff just gets a bit too repetitive for me. I'm not a fan of the style... the singing always seems a bit moaning/wailing to me... oh well.

[DragonFly]

Well each to there own rj ... I hate metal intensely... I don't agree with you about the vocalists either... to me they all sound the same... big ugly voices that sound like they are shouting the whole time, but then I have to admit I don't know the music of the people you have quoted..

But I do like some of the old heavy metal bands... like Led Zeppelin... great talent musically and vocally.

[rjlohan]

Then you're not listening to the right metal.
Some of it is ****e, but there's alot of good stuff there. System of a Down, Machine Head. These bands do a great mellow number too. Or Fear Factory - not everyone's favourite, but their singer has a very well trained voice - he can hold a tone for a bloody long time. Some of it is 'shouting', but that's the style. But this guy had to train his voice for a long time to do that well, or he'd have ended up with throat cancer.

You're probably judging your opinion on the crap bands...

And I'd call Zep 'rock'.

[rjlohan]

I even got my mum onto some of them, and she'd probably say the same thing as you.