The Prayer Experiment

[dvst8]

Last night I was reading a book, that told of an experiment that is currently underway. I wanted to see what you people thought.

The attempt is to apply the scientific method to try to see if prayer works through the intercession of a Higher Being.

A 'prayer group' has been set up, taking several people from different religions. A sample of 600 heart patients will be randomly chosen from around the US and will be prayed for (but not told they are being prayed for) by the prayer group. Another sample of 600 heart patients will NOT be prayed for. A third sample of 600 patients will be prayed for and TOLD they are being prayed for.

The names, and quick details of their condition, of the patients being prayed for will be given to the prayer group.

Most christians believe in the power of prayer and the intercession of God. If this is indeed the case, it is hypothesized that the patients being prayed for should recover better, have a lower death rate and less complications than the patients not being prayed for. If not, it would seem that praying had not effect whatsoever.

I think the experiment is slated to finish in 2002, so there are no results yet. However, it is useful to think of what outcomes are possible and what they might mean:

1) Patients in both groups (prayed for vs not prayed for) recover exactly the same -- statistically speaking

What could this tell us?

a) Prayer is not useful
b) God does not exist
c) God does exist, but chose not help those patients being prayed for, because he would not want to leave any clues which may lead to us 'discovering' him scientifically. Basically, he's on to us and can't be fooled.

2) Patients that are prayed for do better

What could this tell us

a) Prayer is useful
b) God exists and is interceding for us
c) God does not exist, but some telepathic process is at work

3) Only the patients being told they are being prayed for do better

a) It's all in our mind

---

Also the results could be 'skewed' by friends and family praying. This is being referred to as 'backround noise'. It may be the case that this heartfelt prayer is more powerful than the prayer of strangers.

Comments, interpretations?

dvst8

[CthulhuDragon]

Actually this is not a new experiment, it has been done before. I don't have the actual figures with me, but those who were prayed for were more likely to recover regardless of if they were told or not. Like I said, I don't have the exact figures, but I believe that those prayed for had quite a big margin over the others

[dvst8]

yeah this has been done before, except the sample groups were only 200. the results obtained were questionable.

the experiment is being redone with more precise methodology and better statistical analysis techniques so that the results will be scientifically sound.

dvst8

[Sophtware]

Well the group of people that are being prayed for and know it will most likely get better because in there mind they are being prayed for by so many people so that makes them want to get better.(Ever hear that saying Mind over matter?)

The group that was being prayed for but dont know it ..well who knows what could happen there i for one dont know.

Then the group that nobody gives **** about..hehe kidding..
all thye know is that they are in a group of people in a experiment for whatever reason they have been told..and there might be a few people in each group that actually wants to get better and there will be some who dont care and then some who dont..

I remember once when i was small i got a small amount of food poisoning...it was enough too make my stomach hurt real bad..but it was hurting the same day i was going to a toy stroe i had been wanting to go to real bad...
so on the way there in my parents car i laid down and kept telling myself "My stomach doesnt hurt" and by the time i got to the toy store it didnt hurt at all!

So what am saying is your mind has lot of control over your body than just the obvious that we all know.


This is just my opinion..i could be dead wrong.

That was my peso


VB PRO 6 SP3&4

[Iain17]

dvst8

Sounds like a very interesting experiment, i will look forward to the results. The results i am really looking forward to are the ones from the group of people who are being prayed for, and told they are being prayed for. I would like to see the difference in results for that group, for those that believe in God vs those that don't.


The mind is a funny thing however. We really have no idea of how the mind works, and what it is capable of. That is one of the things i would truly love to know. It has always been my belief that healing has a lot to do with the mind. It is a bit like a battle. If you have given up hope, then you have already lost. This i think is true of a lot of things in life. As soon as you start to believe that you have lost, you will lose.

What this does bring up for me is the question over the power of other peoples minds. CthulhuDragon, said that this experiment has been done before, and that the people being prayed for were more likely to recover whether they were told they were being prayed for or not. Does this mean there is a God, or can other people really help someone just by hoping they get better.

So many questions, and so little time on the planet. That, i think is one of the most depressing thoughts i have ever had. That and that they might bring back prohibition.

[dvst8]

Iain
Prohibition?! NOOOOOOO.....

I agree that the mind is a mysterious thing. I'm sure it is involved in the healing process. However, I think this occurs at deeper level. If a sick person explicitly thinks to himself "I'm going to get better, I'm going to get better.." well it's likely not to succeed. I think you have to peel a layer back, and go deeper into the sub-conscious, something very few of us have control over, to start scratching the surface of the power of the mind. I'd like to see more research in this area, as I think it's an area of science that is largely unchartered.

dvst8

[Sophtware]

The mind does have a lot to do with your well being...

Havent any of you that are reading this seen a child that says he or she dont feel good just so they dont have to go to school...then after a while of them telling themselves they are sick..they are actually sick.

I remember hearing this song from bad religion and there's a part of the song where the singer says "Once you convince yourself..the universe falls into place" what i think he means is...once you convince yourself of something...it is just correct in everyway and no way it can be wrong.

But you cant use your mind to heal all of your wounds ..may they be physical or mental....sometimes the wounds are just so bad that you have to go to a hospital or shrink...


So my personal opinion...you cant use your mind to actually heal..only help heal.



Just my opnion..everyone is entitled to there own.

[Gen-X]

I wondered if it was religious people who ran these previous experiments?


The mind is a powerful thing, but there is a difference between simply thinking something and actually believing it.

That I could THINK myself well isn't possible because even those you are passing the thought across your mind to get better you don't truely "believe" it.

This is why so many people find themselves wonderfully "happy" when in a religion... not because the religion has changed them in any way but because they truely and genuinely believe they are better people as a result and thus make it so.

That is why those who know they are being prayed for and who do actually believe in God would have a higher rate of survival... not because they know they are being prayed for but because of their utter belief in the fact that what is happening is competely and totally real.

That is why Stigmata happens, it is a Psycho-Semantic result of the person actually believing they are going to bleed from the hands and feet and they do... Why do you think it often takes several days before the bleeding starts??? Because they have to mentally "psyche" themselves into the state of utter belief.

[HarryW]

Aaarghh psycho-semantics! Sorry, couldn't help it. Semantics is (ironically enough) the study of the meaning of language. I think you mean psychosomatic.

Anyway, nit-picking aside, you believe in stigmata then? It's pretty strong to say that, by believing it will happen, you will develop deep wounds in your limbs that bleed profusely. Opinions?

[Sam Finch]

Yeah, amazingly enough it's not all that difficult, there's no special look into my eyes magicy kind of thing, all you're doing is persuading them that you have the power to hypnotise them through a series of little tricks, as the little tricks start to work they get more and more convinced that you can hypnotise them so you can in fact hypnotise them.

With a big trick like the elephant it's quite hard to tell exactly what's going on inside their head so you can't show them the elephant doesn't exist because you don't really know anything about it.

If you look at a simpler trick, one of the first things you do that could be called hypnosis is telling them that there is no number 7, so If you get them to count up to 10 they go 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10

then hold up 10 fingers, ask them how many fingers you're holding up, they'll say 10, get them to count them
1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11

dispite this, try to convince them that there is a number 7, they're not having any of it

as them what's 4 + 4

8

what's 4 + 3

err, 8

so why are the 2 numbers the same

they just are, that's how maths works, don't you know anything

but if 4 + 4 = 8 = 4 + 3 then 4 + 4 - 4 = 4 + 3 - 4
so 4 = 3

no it doesn't that's just one of those tricks you can do with numbers

give them a maths book they'll claim it's wrong, give them a calculator they'll claim it's broken

The Human mind is very very open to suggestions, it has to be, when you are little things like food goes in your mouth, if you make a face and the wind changes you'll be stuck like that, etc. go straight into the brain, it's the way parents can teach their children easily, because they're very gullible. The rest of your life goes into building upo your defences against bad suggestions, when you get older you have a good solid wall of reasoning which checks new Ideas do see if they're worth taking on board rather than going straight in, it's why older people find learning more difficult.

Next time you finish a can of coke or something give someone the empty can and say "hold that" then walk off, you've suggested they hold the can before their defences can react, they're left holding the can thinking "why did I take this, I don't want it"

If when someone is young you can implant the Idea that there is a god and jesus was his son and the bible is great etc it goes straight into the brain, then the defences are built up around it, it's like our freind mr no 7 wake up, defences back on 7 what a stupid Idea, there's no number 7.

[Sophtware]

I rememberd a old friend of mine used to too hypnosise
He asked if he could try to hypnotise me so i said sure...
..see thats the thing..i said "yes" to him..it was me lowering my defences down and allowing his suggestions to penetrate my mind.So he started off by saying i am seeing a clear blue sky and la la la la ..so after a while of his jibbering i convinced myself that it was working...so i stated seeing what he was telling me....i forgot how long ago it was...but ill i remember was seeing horns and the devils face form out of his face...so then it made me mad and i started beating his ass!! hehehe dont get me wrong i aint no jesus freak..but i just dont like to hallucinate a devilsh figure talking to me.



See ya

[Gen-X]

Sam

I think you just hit the nail right on the head!!!



I never really thought of it this way but now that you mention it there is not only sense, but reason, logic and rationality as well.


This is why those born into Christian families 9 out of 10 cases end up Christian... they have already had it suggested to them and the defenses built up around it.

It also explains the "born again" as they lower their defenses to allow the suggestions to work in order to support whatever "need" they had in seeking religion in the first place. They felt lost or alone or wondered what the point of it all was... and in order to feel better they lowered their defenses, allowed the hypnosis to take effect and then put the defenses up to protect it.


Sam... Despite everything we have ever had in disagreement this in my honest opinion just put an end to ALL discussions about religion once and for all

They can moan and whine and chuck hissy fits all they like... all they are doing is trying to convince us there is an Elephant in the middle of the room

[Sam Finch]

I never really thought of it this way but now that you mention it there is not only sense, but reason, logic and rationality as well.

I never thought of it like that either until you mentioned it, strange really, especially when you look at all the Evangilists, preachers and what not, hypnosis should be the first thing that springs to mind.

disagreement this in my honest opinion just put an end to ALL discussions about religion once and for all

Thank F*** for that!!!

just wait, someone will throw up some obscure passage in the bible and give some obscure meaningless argument saying that this is the work of the devil and we must say the lords prayer 30 times and give the Pope all our money or everyone will go straight to hell.

[Gen-X]

My bags are packed... I'm ready...

Bring him on!!!!

[dvst8]

GenX & Sam
good work.

mr no 7 wake up, defences back on 7 what a stupid Idea, there's no number 7.

i love that! perfect analogy.

dvst8