Why are young developers doubted due to their age?

[kb244]

I myself am 19 (and know lots of friends who are young as 15 trying for their MCSE) I am familiar with a number of development languages, Visual Basic and Active Server Pages are my main focus on the job, but I am also familiar with almost all the Visual basic versions (yes even the VB-DOS) , also with C++, both Microsoft and Borland based, and I am aquainted with least a few other languages, I normally post all the languages I am confortable with at the bottom of my signatures when posting over at tektips. A Fellow "Programmer" states :

"kb you can't seriously only be 19?! You know all those languages? Parlez-vous francais?
John Durbin
ICQ VFP ActiveList #73897253
"

I explained how over the past 5 or 6 years I "messed" with languages throughout highschool , and had some AP courses on C++ duriong my senior year as well as furthering my knowledge in my current job, yet he replies.

"oh so like I've messed with a blonde, burnette, and redhead, and like means I have no understanding of women"

I had his post redflaged since they wernt relevent to the post where I was helping someone with a problem, but I wonder why most people will doubt the abilities based on your age, I belive now in the 90s( and first year of this new century) that the internet had played a very powerful role in my progress, and dont ask where I got the tools to experiement with (you already know) to me he seems to be old of those old coders who doubht anyone can become familiar with anything computer-wise in such short periods of time, anyone care to comment on the issue?

PS: I have no idea what he was trying to say about his last reply.

[Gen-X]

I hear you...

I'm 28 and STILL I get people doubting my ability due to my age... it isn't just the 19 year olds ;-)

When I tell people I started programming on a Commodore 64 at the age of 5 they all look at me like I am absolutely mad!!!

The problem is that people of the "older" generation immediately associate "youth" with "naivety". They cannot possibly believe someone younger can know more because they themselves didn't learn as much.

We live in the information age where the most valuable asset is the ability to ADAPT. Gone are the days when you did COBOL and nothing else for 30 years... holding your head high and claiming you are an "expert" in Cobol. Now you say I have done x,y,z, a and b and you hold your head high because you can adapt to ANYTHING you are given.

I myself know 12 languages and probably 5-6 databases as well as being able to tell ANYONE at ANY time "Heck, If I dont know it... give me a week and its mine".

I don't know if they have this saying in the rest of the world but here in Australia we have what we call "slash" kids. When you ask them what they do for a living they say Waiter "slash" Lawyer "slash" Barman... Its the age of mutli-skills.

I mean look at me... I have a company called "Gen-X Consulting"... which stands for "Generation-X". I'm an IT consultant being paid in the top 5% in the state I live and I am probably the youngest of all of them. I blade (in-line skates) like crazy, have shocking blonde/white hair, a nipple ring and a tattoo of a tiger on my back. I do body building and club myself to death every weekend. Looking at me you wouldn't in your wildest dreams think that I am a systems analyst...

What you are hearing from these other people is "fear"... the "fear" that someone younger than them has more skills than they do and that the more obvious it becomes the more likely they wont get a job in the future.

Its the whole reason why middle-aged management spend more time securing their jobs than they actually do their work... "fear"

[kb244]

I totally agree, also most of the older generation had to pay for their education, they could never think a kid could be rich enough or smart enough to go through collecge to get the same "degree" they had. also I agree with you on the "Heck, If I dont know it... give me a week and its mine". I myself am constantly learning something new on the job when its required, I work with 2 main databases as well for the webprogramming, I've ran into some people who criticized these forums, and stating something like, if you want help pay for it, hmm back in the days of paying for quick tech support, now days we all support each other, for most of the yougth I know, it's like game, see who can do more, just like its a game to compare our computer hardware "Well I got this and this and this..." hehe. thanks for your reply.

[parksie]

Younger people have the advantage that it doesn't matter what it is, they'll know more about it than anyone else within a few days - mainly through fiddling. Then they leave all the older people in the dust.

[jdavison]

Gen-X is 100 percent right! I fortuantely work with a group that respects your abilities no matter what your age but my previous employers looked down at me because I am only 27. Now I do mostly ASP and vb apps. They constantly through things I have no idea how to do and I tell them Sure, no problem and give them an approx time frame and off I go. The real trick to the business I found is its not what you know but how well you can figure it out. If you can do that well you'll get the respect you deserve. Just don't let them get to ya.

Well although I don't agree with Gen-x when it comes to his biblical point of view, I do agree with what he said about age and work in general. I'm 30. I started learning how a VIC-20 works at the age of 10. I know that the commadore-64 didn't come out until the early 80s so Gen-X saying he started on it at the age of 5 is totally false. But I do know what it's like to start out young and others talk down to you cuzz of the "you don't know nothin" syndrome.

I only wanted to say, I understand and I agree that if the older ones were to open their eyes, and see that some of the younger ones are really trying, then maybe they would get a different view of them. I for one use the younger ones on my projects. I find that they like to test and experiment. Which in turn helps me out in testing ideas etc... I know that I wouldn't have gotten this far without some of the yournger ones.. So... Kudos to you young ones.. keep up the learning.. cuzz as the old saying goes...

"Knowledge is Power"

[Gen-X]

Knight Vision

Thanks for pointing that out, your right about the C64 not coming out until the early 80's, That means I must have been 8 or 9 instead of 5.... my mistake.

Appologies


I have a question for you though...

One of the reasons I believe people don't give the younger people credit for their abilities is that the older people think something along the lines of "How can this person know MORE than me, I have been here longer and have studied longer and have done it longer... There is no way this person could know something more/better/wiser than me".

Isn't that EXACTLY what the religious people are doing? They believe because their religion has been around for so long that anyone "younger" coming along and saying "I see something you don't" is considered to be ignorant or they just don't know what they are talking about????

[Edited by Gen-X on 07-09-2000 at 11:14 PM]

Heh.. I was just agreeing with you about age, but I won't be duped into going into a religious discussion with you.. I would rather keep the conversation here at the Visual Basic Forum just that.. about VB. VB-World didn't make this site to be a biblical discussion group. I will say this though.. I have read everything here at the site related to the bible.. so I have read what you think on the subject of religion. I personally hate religion, but I love the bible. I only made my little statement above about my not agreeing with your biblical beleifs so as to keep the others from thinking i'm siding with you on that subject.. cuzz i'm not. nuff said... let's keep this conversation positive..

On another note.. I noticed your URL to your web site and when I went to check it out I got this Error..

Method Not Allowed

The requested method POST is not allowed for the URL /main.phtml.


It then is supposed to put the info of the browser etc.. into your browser.dat file. I viewed this file.. it's not very big since others have probably gotten this error and never actualy was able to view your site. (Yes, I am not just a VB programmer. ) I thought out of kindness you would want to know about this and would want to fix it.

[Gen-X]

Do you know much about internet programming?

Perhaps if you did you would realise the reason the website isn't running is because the ISP that I am going through has removed PHP from their server.

Alas tis neither my fault nor am I able to correct it... So I am in the process of registering my own domain.


But then again I am sure you would have already known that seeing how "skilled" you are in being able to reverse engineer what I was doing thinking it something to smile about

[Mongo]

Fellow stone-cutters, oops, code-cutters, I wouldn't waste much energy feeling looked down upon due to your age. As you get more experience in this dubious realworld, the excuses don't get better. They (the lame excuses) only change to having/not having a degree, having/not having an advanced degree, having/not having the right type of degree from the right institution, the number of degrees, your gender, sexual-orientation, height, race, religion, hair color, the size of your nose, yada, yada. The list is endless. If you can, gain an awareness of the inequalities, build your integrity and teach others through leading by example.

Aw, sounding too soapbox. Why aren't you kids in bed?!?! *smirk* I know, "Sleep is for those who can't program."

[benski]

Mongo-


I second that. Superbly Put.

[Jamagei]

I am 19 and I applied to quite a few jobs in programming. I eventually got a job in vb programming at a small company in which I work work with just one person who is about 27 and he is teaching me more and more each day about networks and stuff. I only really started with computers (not programming) about 4 years ago. I only recently got my a-level in computing (that's all i got.) I also know lots about hardware systems and stuff like that (why don't i send all a C.V prattling on like this). Anyway he could see this and thus employed me. You have just gotta find someone from the right sort of generation to employ you. They understand the 'give me a week' idea. But when I tried for a bigger company with lots of older programmers (i actually know quite a few people at the co.) they turned me down. TWICE!!

[Edited by Jamagei on 07-10-2000 at 07:58 AM]

[HarryW]

Has anybody ever seen the series on TV of StarGate? Well, Gen-X reminds me of the woman.

Hey I don't mean it quite that way (honest ) I say it because she says at the start that she's got a PhD, she's fantastic, she was a Gulf War bomber pilot for 18 months etc etc. and she's like 25. She's not a bad looker either, obviously. I mean, come on

Anyway, I think that description probably needs toning down a little. At least that's what I'll think until I see him on telly as Mr Universe, or whatever

*Ahem* Sorry, just speaking my mind.

I personally don't think its much of a problem. If you're in the IT sector then you're most likely going to be employed by either older people who know little about it (read: management) or by knowledgeable younger people. You might get an ego problem from the older knowledgeable people, but to be honest if they have an ego problem I don't want to work with them.

If someone thinks I'm capable of less than I am, then it's just cool to see their reaction to what I CAN do

Well that's it, I'm done.

[Gen-X]

Actually there are a few different kinds of people you will meet in the IT industry.

1. Management
Usually but not always older. More often than not (unless the IT manager) has absolutely no idea whatsoever about the work you do and therefor has to defer to what they DO know and that is to compare the wage you are getting with the wage THEY are getting and make a judgement call.

I have actually see managers refuse to take on certain contractors because it would mean they are being paid more than said manager and he didn't like it. This is typical middle-age syndrome of protecting your job rather than actually doing the work.

2. Fellow Contractors
Really couldn't care less who/what you are as long as you don't interfere with them getting their 37-40 hours a week completed

3. Perminent Staff
Again not always... but sometimes these people will be highly offended at your presence because you are doing work they thought they could pull off... and invariably it was taken off them because they failed. These people are already upset having realised their skill level is severely lacking and so if you have ANY excuse for them to winge and complain (such as age) they will try and exploit it to see you fail because it attempts to prove they weren't so bad after all.


You "usually" (I really cant stress this enough because I am sure there are people who fit into one of the above who will protest) don't find "knowledgable young people" because they are "knowledgable" enough to not get stuck there perminantly (unless they are totally green) and go contracting.


HarryW
Thanks for the erm.... um.... compliment... I think. Funny you should mention Mr Universe... it was one of my nicknames in high school

[HarryW]

Oh my God, I didn't mean to fuel the ego! *Slaps head*



It wasn't exactly a compliment, more like a scepticism, but take it how you will.


*Chuckles* I'm sure that was one of MANY nicknames you had at school You would have had plenty if you'd gone to my school I can tell ya hehe

No offense *Cackle* I'm just kidding.

[Gen-X]

The funny thing is Harry... when you go through puberty at 10 and have a voice deeper than the teachers and stand 6' tall by the time you are 14 people don't tend to give you nicknames.

Of course I stopped growing taller and they all caught up but the effect was already instilled in them.

Its the funniest thing... I have never been bothered by people in my whole life, either school or night clubs or anywhere.

[tweekmonster]

How bout all us younger people start our own software company and show them old farts a thing or two . It wouldn't be hard. People want the same functions...always with more options (of course).

[Jamagei]

GEN-X

do you ever post a reply without claiming how big and strong and clever you are?

so you might be bigger in real life but in here we don't care about real life i doesn't and physically can't affect us on-line. so veiled threats don't work. in chatrooms and forums the sharpest mind wins. You telling us how big you are does nothing but make me think "what an egotist." I do not claim to be best at everything. I am not opinionated about trivial matters, especially when they don't hurt anyone e.g. religion (that is here in the future and is not a start for debate so don't do it.) so when you post replies why don't you just be nice and answer the question objectively and not subjectively. now if you are as intelligent as you say you will be able to do that.

P.S. capacitors HAHA!

[kb244]

Funny postings Gen-X

oh and tweekmonster
I would try that, yet, I know computers, and programming, and so forth, I wouldnt have the capital, business learning, and such to manage a bisuness but I like your train of thinking hehe. Right now I got my computer triple booting at home (Win98, Win2k Pro, Mandrake 7.1 Linux)

I'll probally be knocking off Win2k to make more room for my Mandrake partition, no offence but I find Mandrake 7.1 to be a hell of alot better distro than RH 6.2(I downloaded RH6.2 first because I Couldnt find a copy of mandrake)

in any case Its not so much a problem from my own Supperiors, I work in a small copany , just me , my CEO , 2 Summer developers(working for the summer then back to college in 5 weeks) ,2 other perm guys they threw downto the State building and My lead developer, who helps cordinate everything, all of us except for the CEO and his wife arnt even older than 30, its a small company, we all know our stuff, and we exchange, Brian(one of our new perm guys) comming from a larger company will say that the huge Doubtful ego will come from the larger people who dont know anything but management, or it'll come from the older always been programming people, who know Cobol but cant imagine some small guy learning something better and faster, in about eh 4 weeks.

I get the problem mostly from aquaintants, you know the other usual people, which I am overly friendly about to , but have the gut feeling that I'm just another "kid" who thinks he knows it all hehe, but I submited this thread as to get a response from others who have run into the same problem, also tweekmonster, we dont want to grow up to be like those older guys who will doubt the youth, some of us will you know. Well anyways Thanks for all your comments, feel free to add more.

"The more we learn, the more we realize how little we know"

[tweekmonster]

--Capital? Business learning? The internet is the office of the future, and our ties will soon be worn as a belt. The only "capital" an internet co. will need is a computer, a compiler or 2, and a good web host (to solicit the goods). "But TweekMONSTER, what about the money for the boxes for the software? blah? blah? blah?" We could be a software co. that's "environmenatlly aware", besides, Active Download (all rights reserved [not by me]) will be replacing them boxes.

--And doubt the youth of the future? that'll never be me. My programming vinge started when i was 11, now i'm 20. I would support the future youth rather than doubt them

[HarryW]

LOL!

Like I said, you DIDN'T go to my school! There was a guy ther who stood 6' 4" at 12, and he had plenty of nicknames

I find your statement that you've never been bothered very odd, since in all my experiences it's the biggest guy who gets picked on the most. It's a matter of ego, that's the whole reason they make trouble, their ego. What's the fun in saying 'yeah I kicked this guy's ass, he was a paraplegic blind thalydamite victim, you shoulda seen me!'

Do us all a favour, right, and leave it out? Either that or we all drop our trousers and measure up right now, and get it over with

[Gen-X]

Jamagei

so when you post replies why don't you just be nice and answer the question objectively and not subjectively. now if you are as intelligent as you say you will be able to do that.

Ever heard the saying "Whats good for the Goose"?

As for capacitors it was an honest mistake.... but then I guess you are going to tell me that the great Jamagei NEVER makes mistakes nor has the "capacity" to accept when other people make them?

I say it like it is, its called "truth" and if you read it like "bigger, stronger, more clever" then doesn't it say more about YOU than it does about me? I said "6 foot tall" and you say "bigger".... I never said that was either I just said "6 foot tall"... You said to NOT be subjective and yet you made a SUBJECTIVE determination that 6' was tall, that I consider myself intelligent and that I am stronger....

So why should I listen to a hypocrit?

Harry

Ok boy, whip it out then and I will go get my telescope

PS: I could tell you more of why I wasn't picked on but then certain "objective" people on this thread would consider me bignoting myself again, so to protect his delicate sensibilities I will not bother.

[Jamagei]

why is it that when i politey ask someone to be more objective and have a look around them (alright you have a point i was being subjective about you and therefore a hypocrite and i apologise) but then when harryw likens you too a woman in one thread and then says that you are not correct he gets nothing!! i don't get it. i know that you are a clever guy from some off the other threads that you have written. i don't understand some off the stuff you type but the general gist off it says a lot about you.

also when you said that you started puberty before everyone and you were 6' when you were 14 that says to me "i am bigger than you" plus with the bodybuilding thing thrown in that just sounds too much to me that you are saying "i am built like a brick-****house. but that is just my subjective opinion. c'est la vie!

[HarryW]

Jamagei is right, you volunteered the information, nobody asked for any measurements. The simple fact that it was brought up by you implies vanity on your part.

And by the way I could start saying some really personally insulting things from what you said, in retaliation for your telescope gag (I know you were j/k... I hope *Evil grin*) but I won't cos this isn't the place for it.

Btw that is I think the first time you have called me Harry instead of HarryW. Well done, you figured out my name from my heavily encrypted username, I was hoping people would (I prefer to be called Harry, that's what my signature is for)

No what on earth does 'What's good for the goose' mean? Vitamin tablets? Plenty of fibre? Regular beak-brushing?

[Gen-X]

Jamagei

One of my many character flaws is that I don't take "advice" well from people who aren't actually using the advice themselves... (which probably means there are times I don't take advice well from myself but thats my own battle).

The fact you admitted you were being subjective as well is enough to make me sit up and take notice of what you say.

I understand that when I said I went through puberty early and was 6' at 14 you read "I am bigger than you"... but I actually am not happy about the situation. What I meant was "I had more problems as a result". I had teachers take me aside and SCOLD me because a game of killer ball on the oval at lunchtime turned into people getting hurt becaue of my size... That wasn't any fun. I had to watch every last little thing I did and as you can imagine there wasn't many girls that were comfortable eough being around someone who could pick them up with one arm... Its one part of my childhood that I really truely HATE.

But I am sure some people will read it and still subjectively say I am bignoting myself

As for the body building part that was said specifically in reference to me being similar to Billy Idol and it was stated simply to indicate that which differs between us.

Harry

Jamagei is right, you volunteered the information, nobody asked for any measurements. The simple fact that it was brought up by you implies vanity on your part.

Is that how it works?
Well then I guess I understand where I am going wrong. I didn't realise that simply telling factual details about myself at points when they are relevant was vanity... Here I was thinking vanity was all about having incredibly high opinions about yourself and not being able to wait to tell every living soul about it...

I could say the fact you gave me the "impression" about measuring up would make you the victor is vanity as well... but you were just making a joke.

So I guess thats what it comes down to. Say something but SHEILD it in a joke or else people will think you are vane. This is something I hate about human behaviour and especially about male behaviour.... hide everything behind a joke

And by the way I could start saying some really personally insulting things from what you said, in retaliation for your telescope gag (I know you were j/k... I hope *Evil grin*) but I won't cos this isn't the place for it

Hence the reason I chose to diffuse the response by joking back... like I said, thats how male human behaviour usually works

Btw that is I think the first time you have called me Harry instead of HarryW

I like the sarcasm... reminds me of someone I know

No what on earth does 'What's good for the goose' mean?

My first thought was that you were having me on here... then I realised you might not be in the same country and the turn of phrase might not exist in your neck of the woods. Therefor I am deciding that you truely don't know what it means...

The phrase is "What is good for the good is good for the gander". It means that if its good enough for me then its good enough for you and was said in relation to someone asking me to be objective instead of subjective when they themselves were being subjective.

I could explain where it comes from but that isn't a very nice tale and it involves animals being hurt

[Edited by Gen-X on 07-12-2000 at 09:37 PM]

[catocom]

The problem is that people of the "older" generation immediately associate "youth" with "naivety". They cannot possibly believe someone younger can know more because they themselves didn't learn as much

I am 35, and I think Matthew Gates who isn't even 16 yet
is way smarter at programming that me!!

I learn something new every day, often by someone
younger than me!!

I don't doubt anybody's ability on anything because
of their age.

Things change all the time(especially in the computer field)

I quit school when I was 16 and got wild.
(did go back and get my GED though)
I don't have any colledge & very little tech school,
(on small engine repair)
But I can build computers from the ground up...and so on,
and so forth, but what I'm getting at is I've basicly
taught myself.
Don't get me wrong I think School is great, and am not
knocking it at all, it's more important know than ever.
As I said(Things change all the time).

As someone else said in this forum"You may be smarter
in one, or more areas than me, but I may be smarter
in another."
I personaly don't discount anything anybody says simply
because I think I know more ,or am older than they are.

I would like to be a little younger myself.
Anybody know where the "Fountain of Youth" is?

So Please Don't catagorize me as being pessimistic,
just because of MY AGE!! Thank you..



[Edited by catocom on 07-12-2000 at 08:24 PM]

[Gen-X]

catocom

Do you consider yourself "typical" of someone your age?


If not then why did you think what I said was even SLIGHTLY related to YOU?


I said "in general" and "on average"... If you personally happen to be different to the norm then congratulations and well done!!!!

That doesn't mean you start personalizing it by going *I*, *I*, *I* and then not thinking it is a common fact.


Its nothing "personal" so don't make it

[catocom]

I do consider my self an average, general, typical
American, but I do apoligize for thinking of
the world as a whole.

I guess it may be that way in Australia.

[Gen-X]

Firstly your American so that makes you anything but average

Secondly your only 35 so I am not so sure I would class you in the "old" category we are talking about

And lastly.... Your still American



But honestly, I am basing the views that I have mentioned after being in the workforce since I was 10, working for my parents in a newsagency and having staff more than twice my age doubting my skills simply because I was younger. The people who had the BIGGEST problem with the fact I was their manager were those people who were 45+ and they were almost "galled" by working under someone so young.

This view continued when I completed my university degree and went out into the technical world, from bosses who thought "green graduate" to managers who thought me incapable of responsibility. All of them failed to realise I had probably managed for longer than they had completely discounting the skills I had aquired prior to university.

When I became a contract this "trend" continued even further with job agencies and clients alike all looking to LOWER my rate for no other reason than they felt I didn't have the experience or the knowledge. Each one of them ended up astounded at the end results and commented that I was more effective and more productive than people twice my age who were on twice the rate.

Even now at 28 I still get the occasional retrograde who spouts off how they have been in the industry 30 years and when we compare resumes my list of skills and knowledge almost tripples theirs and they shut up pretty quickly.

The world isn't about how "LONG" you have known something any more (gone are the days when it was considered trendy to have done nothing but COBAL for 30 years), but how "ADAPTIVE" you are to learning new things. THAT is where the respect should lie for a person... not their age under the false apprehension that only being above the age of 40 gives you the skills required to perform some job.

The "average" computer programmer who is over 40 will probably have 2-3 languages under their belt while the New Blood will have 10-12 languages and probably several DB environments thrown in as well. When you ask these older people to try something new their answer is more often "I wouldn't know how" where as the youth of today say "Give it to me! I'll have it sussed in a week"

I started my own company last year and when people ask and I tell them how well it is doing they have to ask twice about what my age is. Then it usually follows them asking me where I live, what car I drive etc, etc and at some point they come to the misguided belief that I must have had all these things "dropped" in my lap and that I couldnt' possibly have actually worked for them or "earned" them from my own abilities.

Their loss... I'll just head home and jump in the spa and forget about all of them with their suburban houses and white picket fenses trying to feed their 2.3 kids and moaning and groaning that life isn't fair and they are hard done by.

Hey, How did that soapbox get under my feet???

[catocom]

Originally posted by Gen-X
The world isn't about how "LONG" you have known something any more (gone are the days when it was considered trendy to have done nothing but COBAL for 30 years), but how "ADAPTIVE" you are to learning new things. THAT is where the respect should lie for a person... not their age under the false apprehension that only being above the age of 40 gives you the skills required to perform some job.
[/B]

I agree whole heartedly with you on that note.

When I first started programming GCode for CNC equipment
in a machine shop only about 10 years ago, the program
use to complile the program was primative, but still
costed over $10,000 now you can get a cad/cam program
that will blow that one away for $1,000 or less!

I tried to get the owner to upgrade in 1995 but he wouldn't.
the next year his main computer hard disk totally trashed.
He finally got the program I had suggested, only by that
time I was no longer working there.

He seems to actually respect me more since I quit.
Go figure?

[jdavison]

Again I think Gen-X is completely right. It doesn't matter how long you have been doing anything anymore but how quickly you can learn something. Things in the computer industry seem to change quicker and quicker to the point experience is almost irelavent anymore. Seniors seem to be threatened by this but that is a general statement and not meant to refer to specific individuals as I work with some really great senior consultants currently.

[absalom]

I am never doubted because of My age I am 13 and have my MCSD and MCSE and trying for an A+ certification maybe that is why I don't get doubted but hey I have been fairly well off for someone my age

[Gen-X]

No offense is meant in saying this....


But I hardly consider MCSD and MCSE as being a qualification high enough to merrit either acceptance or doubt of a persons skills....

Its like saying I have a certificate because I changed a car tyre once and that people don't doubt my ability to be a mechanic.

I think Most people who have been using PC's for a few years (and I do mean USE and not just fumble around with) would be practically assured of getting those certificates without a blind bit of study. As long as you can say "Microsoft is the Best" you already have a 50% mark

[kb244]

what if you didnt have those certifications, would you be seriously doubted then( I know when some people thing of 13, they think "oh gee wow you're getting into Qbasic" )

right now I have no certifications, other than whats at brainbench.com (That free cert site)

also Microsoft Exams have been depreciated of value over the years, for example, the new win2k Cert doesnt even require that you know TCP/IP , they say "Let win2k handle it".

Also Microsoft isnt always the best, different useage may be better in other OSes, for example, I've used Mac, Windows, Linux (btw I love mandrake 7.1 distro) I have used a 486/25 SX for 5 years, learned everything about it, in and out, (went to Pent/100, then K6-2/450, now at a Athlon/750 powerhouse) there isnt much of a time , where I wont know every inch of my PC, I feel the broader knowledge I have, the more flexible I am in any position, I can get placed in, sticking your nose in a 60$ book, to cram for an exam, is hardly my definition of "knowing it" but in any case, I would be doubting your knowledge, but for arugment sakes, regardless of age, a MCSD doenst really show much(for all I know is that it could be a simple Administering Win98, and some other cert , since it takes 2 exams to get an MCSD) Gen-X is correct on that one part, Most of microsoft's exams, are not based strictly on the language, or task at hand, for example, studying for the Web Applications using Visual Interdev 6 exam, I found that 80% of the exam was based on Terminology, and microsoft's way of thinking, and microsoft's way of project managment, the 10% would be the IDE (knowing where all the menus are and buttons and what not) and another 10% would be actual syntax, which mainly consisited of knowing how to open a SQL Recordset from an ASP. I can belive you're trying for an A+ cert, since it's based on hardware, and has multiple sponsers, they wont be as Bias.

[oetje]

I'm programming in VB for 3 years and normally I never tell people on the internet that I'm 12.

[kb244]

If in person you were approached, you cant exactly hide your age in person.

If in person you were approached, you cant exactly hide your age in person.

Yeah, that sucks, I have been looking for a job all summer, but since I am 13, nobody will even let me show them what I can do...
Although I look like I am about 16 or 17(I am about 6 feet tall) its not like I can lie to the people telling them I am 16.

I really want to get a summer job, and if I dont find one soon, I wont be able to get one, because school starts in about a month.

ok, this is kind of off the subject, but is there anyplace where I can get an "online job" where I just do stuff on my computer for people??
I havent really heard of that, but I am sure its being done...

and I dont think it is fair I cant get a job,
I am 13, SOOOOOOOO.
I know
Visual Basic, HTML, JavaScrit, a little perl, C, a little C++, quite a bit of SQL, quite a bit of ASP, I know how to use Flash, I know API, I know a little bit about database(in VB), I know a little PHP, and I am learning XML,
shouldnt I be able to get at least a $5 an hour job?
even if I list all my skills, nobody EVER hires me, they dont even tell me what to prove to them.
I am also experienced in Photoshop, Paintshop Pro, and Microsoft Image composer.

so... I am pretty sure its my age, but I want another opinion, do you think age is the reason why i cant get a computer job?

[kb244]

If I were you I'd just try working off the internet, perhaps, but you could "Probally" check with some intern service(hey even they may be surprised) most jobs cant even hire you under their policy unless you are over 16 even for a parttime job, But yea I can see where it would suck major arse. Hey According to your signature you are still learning C++ want me to tutor you over the weekend sometimes on IRC?

[Gen-X]

dennis

I am wondering if the reason isn't because of the skills you have but in how much knowledge you have in them.

While you may say "I have quite a bit of knowledge about SQL", I know myself I considered how much you would know and came to the conclusion that based on the extensive knowledge that someone like myself who has a Computer Science degree has, what you consider "quite a bit" is probably very small indeed.

I am not trying to say you are not capable... but while you may see that knowledge as fairly good, not having seen the WHOLE thing you might not understand where your skill level is... for exactly the same reason that employers don't see it

Do you understand cartesian joins? Left joins? Unions? Nested Selects? Query Plans? Table Scans? Data normalization?

When I was 13 I thought I had a mountain of knowledge... and I did, but the older I got the more knowledge I accumulated and it made what I had at 13 look like nothing.

My best advice to you would be to forget about the summer job in computing, make yourself an application that you can sell as shareware that people would use. Let the proof be in the pudding so to speak, let your skills talk for themselves by the end product you have created.

I've been in this industry in one form or another since I was probably 13... meaning I have been here 15 years and I still learn things every day.

Your onto a good start, a damn good start and if you just keep it up then by the time you get to college you will be romping it in over everyone else... by the time you leave college you should have some amazing marks and *then* you should be first pick with any computer company.

I know it sucks but unfortunately we cannot beat the way the world works... so we have to join them