B I G T O B A C C O

[mikeycorn]

What the hell are we breeding in America when juries award smokers $145 billion?!? What a crock of ****! Why don't we just keep the entire population in diapers so we don't have to be in control of our bowel movements! I mean, we are breeding a nation of people who take no responsibility for their own actions, a nation of soft, weak-minded adults who can't be held accountable.

What, the warning on the package wasn't big enough??? You didn't know these things were bad for you? Let me tell you something, the tobacco industry is a great American institution employing hundreds of thousands of good people. The product they sell goes to the root of the greatest dillema that we face as a planet. The tobacco companies sell population control and God bless them for it.

If you think this award is a victory for the little guy, you're wrong. Awards like these just tell people that you don't have to take responsibility for the decisions you make because you are living in the Nanny State. If I could I would spit in the faces of every one of those jurors.

[GRAHAM]

Well I've been smoking for 41 years, and there's only one person I'm gonna blame if I die from the effects of tobacco

ME

GRAHAM

[Sam Finch]

I Think the Case was about the Fact that they "lied" to the Consumer, in the fifties, by telling them that their fags made you feel better and didn't leave your throat dry etc which was open to misenterpredation.

Another Victory for the stupid guy.

[GRAHAM]

Sam, there are many products that have a similar case.
Take milk for example... get your daily intake of calcium, milk is good for etc. free school milk (if you're old enough to remember that). Now its supposed to clog your arteries, contribute to heart disease and god knows what else. So the milk industry introduced semi-skimmed low fat, just like the tobacco industry introduced low tar smokes.
What is totally acceptable in one decade is quite often viewed in the opposite, in the next decade.

The thing I have a problem with is the fact that in most instances you don't know the long term effect of eating additives and preservatives in everyday food items, that are deemed harmless now, and you are not even aware that you're consuming them half the time. Also there is no global standard of acceptable levels of toxic or harmful substances, and you quite often see a level of (lets say) one part per million being acceptable in Britain, but totally unacceptable in America.

I could ramble on all night( sorry.. morning) about this sort of thing, as I've seen alot of attitudes change over the years.

GRAHAM

[Sam Finch]

I'm Actually Against the verdict, the Deeply Cynical Carcasic voice I typed it in didn't come accross very well.

If that case takes away my Marlboros I'll be very annoyed. I think it'sstupid that they let a jury decide the amount as well, seeing as how it's supposed to be 6 Average people, There arn't a lot of people who could understand how much $145 Billion is, I know I can't, try to Imagine $145 billion, you can't, Unless you've got a really good knowlege of corporate Finance there's no way to decide what the Amount should be. $145 bilion is a rediculous amount of money, If It doesn't come down on appeal you'll put several companies out of bussiness for one good advertising camaign.

[noone]

The judge will have to bring the amount down because by Florida law the settlement can not bankrupt or cripple the industry.
The American constitution demands that any civil case over $20 (I believe) be settled by a jury.
In Canada civil cases are heard by judges, what's it like on your side of the Atlantic Sam?

[Psyrus]

mikeycorn said:,


"The product they sell goes to the root of the greatest dillema that we face as a planet. The tobacco companies sell population control and God bless them for it."



Let me see:

My grandfather died of lung cancer.
My grandmother died of lung cancer.
My father-law died of lung cancer.
A few friends at work died of lung cancer.

You are a real A$$. Sorry but this is the first post to P me off. Is AIDS also good population control? From your post it sounds like it.

We all make choices and must live with the consequences. Now if only Big Business can come up with a way to control the Ignorant population.



[Edited by psyrus on 07-14-2000 at 11:52 PM]

[noone]

Originally posted by Psyrus
Now if only Big Business can come up with a way to control the Ignorant population.

That's what marketing is for
How do you convince people they need to buy a new car every three years when the one they have no works perfectly fine? Marketing.

[Psyrus]

I was actually thinking along the lines of mikeycorn's post, something to cure the world of the ignorant...Permanently.

[mikeycorn]

I'm sorry if my post reminded you of the loss of your grandparents, but we all have to go sometime and most of the smokers that I know are willing to make the trade of some of the years at the end of their lives for the pleasure of a cigarette today. That's the kind of choice that a person should be able to make in a free society.

Originally posted by Psyrus
I was actually thinking along the lines of mikeycorn's post, something to cure the world of the ignorant...Permanently.

Are you wishing that the world were cured of the ignorant, Psyrus? Are you trying to say that I am ignorant? Exactly what was it that I said that inspired you to throw that word around anyways?

There's only two kinds of smokers: the ones that know that they're trading some of their tomorrows for a smoke today, and the ones that are dishonest with themselves. Most of the smokers I know fall into the first category. The second catagory, let's call them the ignorant minority, and yes, Psyrus, you're wishes have already been answered because the tobacco companies are doing more than their share to help cure the world of them.



[Edited by mikeycorn on 07-15-2000 at 11:03 AM]

[daveh]

Well, hmmm, I just gotta throw in my 2¢ here…
I guess the first thing is to point out a few facts;

#1, Our great loyal government has collected FAR more in taxes on the sale of tobacco products than they have or ever will disperse to the states for the medical care of the 'victims' of the tobacco industrie, through the sorry tax/spend system we call the US Government.
(Don’t believe this? – do your homework!)

#2, We live in a country where woman have the ‘right’ to ‘choose’ to kill their baby,
but these smokers didn’t ‘choose’ to take their next puff off of a cigarette.

#3, Billions and Billions of dollars in ‘awards’…. to who? Who gets the lion’s share of these so-called awards? The lawyers and the government of course.

How many dollars does it take to get back a smokers health… Or their loved one that has died from smoking?
People need to wake up and reverse this “Blame anyone else but me” attitude that the lawyer industries have perpetuated so they can fill their Swiss bank accounts and retire in some far off island paradise.
Are the tobacco companies wearing halos? Of course not! But are the liquor companies? Or the automobile companies? Or for that matter bill gates?… who is going to ‘win’ in this medusa lawsuit that the government has brought against m/s ? It is NOT you and I! (the users)

I could go on and on, as I’m sure you all could also.
It is all a game of money. No more, no less


[Edited by daveh on 07-15-2000 at 01:27 PM]

[mikeycorn]

Right on the money there, Dave. What a joke it is to see the government on the one hand collecting taxes from what they themselves have deemed to be a LEGAL PRODUCT and then on the other hand patting the jury on the back for their "conscientious discision".

I should clarify myself when I say "the government". To me it just seems too ludicrous that this would even be allowed to go to trial, but it's not as if the entire government has it's head up it's ass.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce called Friday's decision "an obscene symptom of a court system that is out of control."

"Trial lawyers have subverted the legal system for their own financial gain," said Bruce Josten, Chamber executive vice president. "Legitimate but politically out-of-favor businesses have been attacked by attorneys driven by the prospect of absurd punitive damage awards."

. . . with thoughts of far away islands in their heads.

[Psyrus]

mikeycorn,

Evidently you have no one in your family that has been addicted to anything or suffered the consequences of such an addiction. When or if it happens you'll change your tune.

But, I do agree that the courts/jury system has gone way overboard when it comes to lawsuits. I'm not saying that I agree with the court's decision in this matter. People who smoke do make that choice to light up the first time, usually it happens when they are teenagers and do not really fear death or anything else for that matter. By the time they mature and realize their mistake, it's too late.

Quitting is not an easy thing to do. Smoking becomes a part of your lifestyle. Not only do you become addicted to the chemicals but you sort of light up during/after certain events, such as waking up, after dinner etc. So getting past the chemical addiction is only part of the battle. The real hard part comes when you have to make a lifestyle change.

Is alcohol far behind on the governments hit list? They tried it once, will they try it again?

[mikeycorn]

Or how about putting red meat on the hit list.

Or Krispy Kreme donuts on the list.

We should definately put bad television on the list because it rots your mind.

How about limiting programmers to writing code for a maximum of ten hours a day? I mean, that can't be healthy spending fifteen hours slumped in front of a CRT.

By the way, Psyrus, I know all about addiction. I quit smoking once before, I can do it again. ;-)

you only spend 15 hours a day?
damn....
I spend about 18.....

just joking of course... its only about 15...

[Sophtware]

This "settlement" isnt gonna hurt bigtobacco..it will just make them bigger but not in such obvious ways...
now that they have to pay this big amount to the government..
NOT to the people as the news claims to say..
they will only make there products MORE addictive,as if they werent addictive enough now so they can make more money and whats also annoying is those tv commericals where supposedly phillip morris helped flood victims..They didnt help the flood victims to be nice..they did it so they could "Save face" in the court case.Then to the other side of the coin on the tv commericals...those lame as commercials like the one that has some kid going to some underground room with a dr.kevorkian looking old geezer that gives the kid a pirecing in his tounge..then the old fool says "Join me in a cigarette" Then the Young fool says
"What do you think am crazy??"......ok let me get this straight..the young fool wants a steel thing in his tounge..
but he wont take a cigarette? hahahaha then the commercial fades away with the message:

"Tobacco is whacko for teens"....??????????????!!!!!

Ok Ok so it's all fine and dandy and healthy for adults?????

I Know the point of the commercial is to stop teens from starting to smoke..but good god people think about a message before you display it to the world...

I been smoking for 4 years already...i started when i was 17..and there was no "Tobacco is whacko for teens" out then..hell when i started i could get a pack of "fags" as sam put it ...hehehe for $2.25 cents
Nowadays there $4.00!!!!!!!My great president "Mr.clinton"
had the great idea that if the price of fags were raised people would quit.....all that did was make bigtobacco more money.

My dad was smoking for 25 years.....and he has been quit for 25 years....and he tells me that cigs are more addicitng now then they were in the late 50's early 60's
and he used to smoke camel non-filetrs 3 packs a day..so you smokers that are reading this no about camels...hehe


And i got started smoking because when i was in high school all i wanted to do was party and get laid and all the crap that follows along with that and with partys comes cigs....
at first i smoked em to get that "Head Rush"..Which was fine..then i started craving them...if you are ever curios as to when you are hooked...just wait till you start CRAVING them then you are offically hooked..

And Yeah ive tried to quit...but it's kind of hard when 250% of the people around you smoke...hehehehe


Ok Ive said my piece


Later all


NewBee Vbeer6.0(and smoker!!)
Vb 6 pro sp3&4
Marlboro Lights...hehehe
End Sub

Soptware

My heart bleeds for you man, here in Aussie a packet of B&H 25 extra milds costs $7.85. 5.50 of which goes in tax.

The Government, (Jack boot Johnnies mob of mental retards), claim the high tax is to cover excess medical expenses smokers incur. They are now claiming they want to recover these expenses from the *** companys. Cool,where's my refund on the taxes.

Much of Australian problems can be placed at the feet of people who claim the Government should do everything. What a pack of friggin low-lifes. What ever happened to the individual and his/her responsibilities to the community.

Over here our highest tax level, which everyone l know is on, is 47%, plus we got 10% gst and markup taxes on a number of commodities. Something tells me the government are taking us for a ride.

[mikeycorn]

Don't you know that the Government knows best how to spend your money? Come on now, Jethro, they're only taxing you $5.50 a pack because it's in your own best interest!

It's gotten so bad here in California that it is illegal to run an establishment which allows smoking!!! Not a restaurant, not even a friggin' bar! Can you believe that? As a business man, you can't invest your own money in a business where you intend to allow smoking. I guess the Nazis in the state government figure that the owner might put a gun to some women's heads and force them to work as waitresses in a smoke filled environment. I guess that some non-smokers might wander in unaware of the cloud of deadly toxic smoke and then it will be too late for them to turn around and head for the exit.

Thank God we have the government to protect us from ourselves.

[Sophtware]

Mikeycorn you live in california?..cool
i live in los angeles...and i know what you mean by not being able to smoke in a bar or restaurant...

whatever happend to the days when people went into a restaurant and if there was people smoking.....there was a such a thing as "non smoking section" i remeber when the GOVERNMENT passed the no smoking in bars law...nobody voted for that...i mean damn thats the whole ponit of a bar..is to drink and SMOKE... whats next? no drinking in a bar??
And to make it worse not even if the owner of the bar can smoke....

Screw the local california govt.

Man the public bars go bankrupt over here. What a pack of Nazis we are all living under!

[/\/\isanThr0p]

What's the problem with not beeing allowed to smoke in a bar? Nice for everyone who doesn't smoke!!

And I really can't understand the Americans in this point!
In no other country you could find such a stupid accuse
and nowhere would a jury care for such a thing!
And in no country you'd have to pay such a huge 'Award'

[Sophtware]

That's the thing about this country....it's got to the point to where people need to be told what to do...
For exapmle in restaurants like mcdonalds ..when a employee gets done mopping the floor he HAS to put out a little sign that says "caution wet floor"...what ever happend to the days when people didnt need a sign..people KNEW the floor was wet by being more observant..but i guess thats asking too much..
And getting to the point of the nazis(the us govt.) and there gestapo police.....i remember reading a article in the local newspaper here and there was a story about some guy who tried to break into the second level of a house
and then he fell of the second level and hit the ground and broke his neck....so what did he do...he went and got a lawyer and sued the people who owend the house that HE was trying to break into..and he won the court case!!!!!!!!!!
Oh well there's nothing i can do...


See Ya

[noone]

And then there's the woman who tried to hold a hot cup of coffee between her knees while driving, then sued and won when she burnt herself. More fuel to the argument that civil cases dont belong before a jury.

[jdavison]

I agree with dave and many others above. People need to take responsibility for their own choices and this case with the tobacco companies is rediculess. If I buy a gun and shoot myself can the gun company be sued too. I hope not. You know what smoking will do to you just the same as a gun. You don't have to pull the trigger before you know what it will do. Our country is in a horrible state of decay in morality and responsibility. When our killing their children because they want the right to choose what happens to their body. What a farse. If you were responsible with your body to begin with you wouldn't be pregnant. So now you kill the only individual that had no choice or responsibility in what happened, the baby. Our forfather would be very ashamed of what they have created if they were alive. We have complete redifined the costitution, morality almost no longer exists, and nobody is responsible for anything. What a shame. I wished I could address my country directly some time and tell them what is happening.

[Sophtware]

jdavidson:
Why does it bother you if a woman who was pregnant gets a abortion or not?

Not to be rude..but why is it any of your business at all?
Now if you got her pregnant then it's a different story..

Another thing i have to say about the pro-life people
Why do you constently argue that abortions should be illegal
but yet there has been numerous BOMBINGS by pro-life activists in abortion clinics killing the doctors that did the abortions..but i guess it's ok for them to kill and not the doctors in the abortion clinics eh?

Once again i aint trying to be a enemy..am just stating my point is all.

[jdavison]

Just because some prolife people do something doesn't mean I agree with them. Bombing is unacceptable to me and I don't believe in doing anything intentionally to cause harm to another human being. But to take the life of an incocent is wrong in my eye. The child is not responsible for the acts of the parent. It is not the childs fault that his mother got pregnant with him or her. But that always seems to get lost in peoples selfishness. If the parent was responsible, they wouldn't have gotten pregnant period. If you go to vegas and put all you money on the table and loose, are you going to beable to get it back, of course not. I think people need to start taking responsibility for their choices in life and quit pushing it off. You played the game, now pay up if you loose. To take the life of a child is wrong, that is murder. I played the game before and lost, but I took responsibility for it and now I have a beautiful daughter and wouldn't trade her for anything.

[Edited by jdavison on 07-20-2000 at 04:34 PM]

[mikeycorn]

I have a beautiful daughter and would trade her for anything

Hmmm . . . okay I know that was a typo, but did you ever see that scene in the Blues Brothers where they're trying to get one of the members of the band back in but he's got a good job as a Maitre De at a posh restaurant and doesn't want to do the gig, so they get a table and start harassing the people around them . . .

"How much for your daughter? I want to buy your daughter, how much for the little girl?"

J, you better correct that typo before you start getting some offers.

[jdavison]

I fixed it before you posted

[mikeycorn]

Wow, look at that, you got your edit in a minute before I could even post my message that caught your typo! You're swift, J.

Abortion is one of those very few issues that I can actually respect the opinions of both camps and I constantly struggle between my heart that says it's wrong and my mind that knows that the less unwanted children the better.

Let me just ask one thing of you, J, if you're a Republican, like most pro-lifers are, just please don't try to drag our party down with your issue. We need to win back the white house and keep control the house and senate. Abortion kills, but pro-lifers kill the Republican party.

[jdavison]

I don't associate my feeling with any party. I just feel that somebody has to stand up for the child since the parent won't. But then I dont believe in political parties either. This cause a division in the country and George Washington himself spoke against it.