American nationalist backlash may cause trade war with Europe

[simonm]

So much for globalisation and free-trade, George Bush panders to nationalist sentiments by imposing a 30% duty on steel imports.

Trade war threat over steel

[Jamagei]

See the If you are an American... Thread

[MerrionComputin]

Since the tarriffs are only being put on rolled and bar steel raw materials, all that will happen is that the second level processing (making sheets into cars etc.) will move out of US.

However, Europe will probably respond in kind - it really has to - and the real losers will be the Japanese economy which is already in chronic recession. This will stretch banks to such an extent that they will have to cut their lending to asset ratios in the US which will hurt consumers and ultimately the US steel industry.

[Wally Pipp]

This may however be reason enough for the EU to go ahead with their intentions to impose a 4 bln dollar pay back (ruled by the WTO in the previous trade war) on the US ...

[Jethro]

Er...hoping this is the right thread...

Check the US's trade policy on primary produce...subsidies for their primary produces. This country has never been about free trade!

[rjlohan]

Yeah, and ask us about our Steel, and agriculture industries...

[simonm]

So, are there no views from any US citizens? What do they think of such actions?

[BG]

I have a very strong opinion on this subject. I grew up in Pittsburgh PA, where you can not find a Steel Mill to save you life any more. The US Does not really produce that much steel any more. That's pretty sad considering Pittsburgs steel mills used to take up more land than some small countries. They all Moved to Mexico and other countries because the federal government taxed the hell out of them and the local government taxed the hell out of them on property taxes. I worked in the IT Department of the last true steel mill in pittsburgh. I lost my job, My family lost their jobs, my friends and their familys lost their jobs, Damn near every on in the area lost their jobs. Now an awesome city is a pile of unemployed crap and I had to move to Seattle (Granola Heaven). The US Screws it's own sometimes more than it is screwing your Countries.

[simonm]

The US Does not really produce that much steel any more.

Well it is a shame. The British steel industry went through something very similar 20-30 years ago.

However, if this action is just making up for past mistakes, that's not the rest of the world's problem.

[BG]

I kinda curious how many of the foreign steel mills are still amreican owned.

[Wally Pipp]

top steel producers

Find out for yourself how many are American owned.

[BG]

Link Dosn't work.
I'm not that curious any way. My point is that The US screwed Itself 20 years ago and everyone ("including americans" are paying for it).

[BG]

Never Mind, It works. My internet connection has been messed up all day. Man I can pick a few of those that do not even produce steel any more. LTV for one, off of the top of my head.

[Jethro]

They had some talking head on the tellie from BHP last night, (Oz's major steel producing country), who claims the trade sanctions wont affect them.........gee he probably got this job right after working in PR for Ansett...

[barrk]

Bush is scary as hell....what's even scarier is that we seem to be giving him carte blanche......if Osama Bin Laden only knew the real impact of what he did is not the killing of thousands of peoples bodies but the killing of millions of peoples brains he'd be laughing his as off......

[Wally Pipp]

well, if it goes on like this the US might not only have trade war on their hands but also a 4 bln fine, courtesy of the EU (they will have little reason to go for settlement ).

[chrisjk]

I think we should all sit around a huge table with inflatible mallets and whack each other (except the person whacking Bush can use a concrete one)

[barrk]

I suspect that whacking off was already a favorite activity of the world leaders anyway!

[chrisjk]

trust you to gutter it

[Wally Pipp]

Do you think he will get another term after this ? Naaah ...

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time" (bit modified)

Was it Lincoln or Washington ?
/ponders...

[BG]

Originally posted by chrisjk
I think we should all sit around a huge table with inflatible mallets and whack each other (except the person whacking Bush can use a concrete one)

Use Steel Mallets. He'll need the tax money to cover his hospital bills.

[barrk]

It was Lincoln, Wally. Chris, what did you expect?

[SurfDemon]

Heavy Industry the world round has been suffering in the last couple of decades (Steel, mining, ship building). The incredible demand of the first half of the century has waned.

It's time all these resources where re-deployed.

However, it's one thing to claim to have free trade, and then start imposing taxes to protect your own people. Either yoiu have a level playing field, or you don't. You can't pretend to, then try and bully other countries (especially when there are bigger guys on the block).

SD

[chrisjk]

Originally posted by barrk
Chris, what did you expect?

errr nothing

[Wally Pipp]

I fooled you in true Lincoln spirit

[beachbum]

BG,
It's sad that pittsburgh was affected to badly and even sadder that we had to listen to Billy Joel singing about it, but I think you'll find that every steel producer went thru massive restructuring in the 80's and 90's. Here BHP went from 24,000 employees at Port Kembla to 5,000.. closed the Newcastle plant (not sure of the numbers) and so there has been massive social effects. Never at any stage did the govt consider protective tarrifs because it is widely recognised that these tariffs end up having the reverse effect.

So now, with one of the most technologically advanced steel works in the world we are grouped amongst a number of countries that are supposedly dumping lower quality steel in the U.S.

I suspect that the decision is a roll on effect from 9/11 in that Bush wants to portray to Americans that we can bugger the rest of 'em and go it alone.

[markman]

originally said by George W. Bush
If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow.

[SurfDemon]

Originally posted by beachbum

.....and even sadder that we had to listen to Billy Joel singing about it,

[BG]

19,000 Jobs, Thats it? try adding a couple zeros behind that and see how you feel.

http://www.uswa.org/press/steelcrisis020102.html

[SurfDemon]

Yeah, but look at the populations:

America = 320 million people

Australia = 5 million people, 1 mechanical dog, 1 dragonfly and a deranged lump of Jello.


SD

[beachbum]

Originally posted by BG
19,000 Jobs, Thats it? try adding a couple zeros behind that and see how you feel.

http://www.uswa.org/press/steelcrisis020102.html

ok let's try it... 19,000 * 100 = 1,900,000 ... ok so i go to the article and look around for that number... hmmm 46700... ok I go back and check my maths ...

19000 was in Port Kembla... I think there was approx 6000+ in Newcastle and even more than that over the last few years before it finally closed. But lets say 6000. So, the workforce in steel is now 1/5th of the original workforce and yet we are the ones cheating and dumping????

America likes to have its cake and eat it too in relation to trade. Where it is dominant eg hitech it bullies other countries to allow free trade but where other countries are more competitive eg agriculture, steel etc it bleats about unfairness and the necessity for tariffs. Under Bush, America is threatening to return to its isolationiast pre ww2 strategy and I dont think that will be good for america or the rest of the world.

When Bush The Brain disappears from the political spotlight someone else is going to have to deal with the problems he has set in train now.

[rjlohan]

Originally posted by Jethro
They had some talking head on the tellie from BHP last night, (Oz's major steel producing country), who claims the trade sanctions wont affect them.........gee he probably got this job right after working in PR for Ansett...

Probably 'cause we weren't exporting much there in the first place. It's the Asian area that we would be mostly interested in. 1/2 way around the world is a loooonng way to send steel for export. Nonetheless, I hate the attitude, and there are other agricultural markets being affected...

and Harry, I think your stance on unemployment is harsh. Governments always argue about unemployment rates, and I think 5% is a good figure to settle on, there are always gonna be a part of the population who just don't want to work, or can't, but when an entire industry goes under, there is always a majority of the workforce who have a skillset, and can't adapt or get a new skillset so far into their lives or career, because there isn't an infrastructure or *free* educational facilities to support their transition. I know plenty of people who want to work, but can't for whatever reason. an uncle of mine once lost his job, when a poorly managed company went under, and at one point was offered a job which paid less than his government benefits... he had 4 kids, now what choice can you make, really?

[simonm]

Harry

Maybe I'm just being an insensitive git, but I don't like the idea of messing around with taxes and laws just to protect certain industries. If they're not working properly, let them go.

Yes, I do believe you are being a bit insensitive as well.

It's not necessarilly that simple. For example, one assertion that steel workers in America are making (similar to assertions made from workers in our manufacturing industries) is that they are being forced to compete, on an open playing field, against companies who have no social legislation, pay "peanuts" for wages and suffer, generally, far worse working conditions.

If, by being innefficient, you mean that the working conditions are too generous, what would you have them do? Should steel companies in America pay their employees the same amount that they get payed in eastern europe? Must all countries sink to the lowest common denominator?

In some ways however, I do sympathise with what you're saying. In IT for instance, there are no (negligable) unions and working conditions and pay are dictated purely on a supply and demand basis. If you don't like one employer, you just get off you ass and find another. Perhaps all industries should be like this one.