Are we better off?

[simonm]

Are we better off now, in modern day civilisation, than we were, say, four thousand years ago when we were all nomads and hunter/gatherers?

Obviously we are more technologically advanced but are we better off? Are we happier? Have we come closer to perfection?

Comments would be appreciated...

[numtel]

THat's a toughy.

[Bonker Gudd]

Yeah, where's kedaman when you need him.

I expect that life expectancy now is over twice what was expected 4 thousand years ago. For that reason I'd say we're better off.

As for whether we're happier, who knows?
*plods towards his time machine*

[Arbiter]

Well......

Maybe...

*Follows Bonker to the time machine.*

[Behemoth]

is that "we" as individuals or "we" as a society?

[SjR]

We're more fat, sweaty and disgustingly unhealthy than then I'd say but probably happier with it overall??.

[simonm]

is that "we" as individuals or "we" as a society?

"We" as individuals within society. But you put the question to either.

I expect that life expectancy now is over twice what was expected 4 thousand years ago. For that reason I'd say we're better off.

Well, it wasn't just disease that killed us off quicker back then, we wore our bodies out quicker. Now, we live like pansies but live much longer.

We were physically much stronger and more hardy as well back then (even just going back hundreds of years). We have disinfected ourlives so much that we have become incredibly dependant on cleansiness and hygine. We are much more prone to diseases and infections now (although we have many socphisticated medicines to combat them).

[NotLKH]

Originally posted by simonm
Are we better off now, in modern day civilisation, than we were, say, four thousand years ago when we were all nomads and hunter/gatherers?

I am better off now than then, considering my desires, hopes and dreams are currently acheivable, while they couldn't have been acheived then.

However, If I had been Born back then, My desires, hopes, and dreams would be different, and mostly acheivable at that time, at which point I would then have said that I was pretty much well off.

Originally posted by simonm

Obviously we are more technologically advanced but are we better off?

From our perspective, yes, we are better off, if we consider we have more choices of lifestyles than we did back then. An individual can choose to live at any point within the range of taking advantage of everything that modern society can offer thru totally shunning all modern conveiniences and living like a mindless brute on a deserted island.

Back then, that range was significantly collapsed more toward the Mindless Brute end.

Originally posted by simonm

Are we happier?

Happyness is Relative, Ignorance a Bliss.

Originally posted by simonm

Have we come closer to perfection?

Define perfection. AND, on an individual basis, some strive to be all that they can be, and some don't, no matter what the time period is.

Originally posted by simonm

Comments would be appreciated...

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

oh, wait, "Comments", not Commas!

[simonm]

From our perspective, yes, we are better off, if we consider we have more choices of lifestyles than we did back then. An individual can choose to live at any point within the range of taking advantage of everything that modern society can offer thru totally shunning all modern conveiniences and living like a mindless brute on a deserted island.

Back then, that range was significantly collapsed more toward the Mindless Brute end.

Hmmm...maybe. But I the I'm not asking the question "would your life be better if you were transported back to then?"

If you think about it from the perspective of, "ooh look at all I've got and all that I would have to do without if I were living in that time", then it will no doubt compare poorly. However, as you have hinted at, one's expectations from life were very different then than now. They would have been happy with much less than we have now.

Do we not expect so much from our lives now that, for the most part, we end up living frustrated lives and dying in disapointment? If our aims were more achievable back then, were most people not happier than they are today?

Happyness is Relative.

Exactly. I would say that happiness is relative to our expectations.

Also, these days, we have so much time to spend on thinking introspectively. So much more time to ponder the very notion of our existance. The more we think about it, the more futile it seems. When we were living day to day, hell bent on survival, we didn't think about that and probably felt happier.

Define perfection. AND, on an individual basis, some strive to be all that they can be, and some don't, no matter what the time period is.

I know what you're saying but civilisation has created so much redundancy in our lives that striving for things has become purely optional. Now, we need cultural stimulus to make us strive for things and back then striving was a necessity of survival.

[Behemoth]

The modern world disappoints me personally. I think to some degree I'd rather kill my own food than eat battery farmed eggs and genetically engineered tomatoes. Its just not practical in this day and age.

[goudabuddha]

Back then you had a 50-50 chance of being killed by your dinner before you could actually eat it. Life expectantcy was longer for most turtles than it was for humans. You can't be happy or sad if you're dead. Therefore, I say we are happier today because we have more time to do things that we want to. Back then, the little time you had was spent on surviving, and there was almost no leisure activity. Today I spend ten hours of every day in front of my computer just for entertainment.

[donut]

Originally posted by goudabuddha
Back then you had a 50-50 chance of being killed by your dinner before you could actually eat it. Life expectantcy was longer for most turtles than it was for humans. You can't be happy or sad if you're dead. Therefore, I say we are happier today because we have more time to do things that we want to. Back then, the little time you had was spent on surviving, and there was almost no leisure activity. Today I spend ten hours of every day in front of my computer just for entertainment.

having more time doesn't neccesarily mean you'll live a happier life. because we have more time, we're probably more likely to think "well, i have plenty of time to do that, so i'll do it tomorrow, or the next day after that" until it's too late, and you die having regretted not doing it. whereas having a short life span, you're probably more likely to think "well i probably don't have much time left, i'm gonna do it now before it's too late". when you're an old man, you'll look back and say "damn, i wish i didn't sit at my computer for 10 hours a day, wasting my life".

[goudabuddha]

Originally posted by donut


having more time doesn't neccesarily mean you'll live a happier life. because we have more time, we're probably more likely to think "well, i have plenty of time to do that, so i'll do it tomorrow, or the next day after that" until it's too late, and you die having regretted not doing it. whereas having a short life span, you're probably more likely to think "well i probably don't have much time left, i'm gonna do it now before it's too late". when you're an old man, you'll look back and say "damn, i wish i didn't sit at my computer for 10 hours a day, wasting my life".

But that's the thing, back then you couldn't do anything like that except in rare cases because as long as you were alive you had to do stuff to keep yourself alive, be it hunting or foraging or basket-weaving or tending to the fire or whatever. There wasn't much to do for leisure, and most people couldn't do what little there was because they had to concentrate on keeping themselves alive.

[donut]

but because there wasn't much to do for leisure, they weren't really missing out on anything. there were probably still things that they wanted to achieve in life, albeit not leisure activities.

[simonm]

Therefore, I say we are happier today because we have more time to do things that we want to.

More time? Yeah, we're always creating time saving devices but then what happens? The expecations of what we're to do (within a particular time frame) increase so that we're no better off.

[goudabuddha]

Originally posted by simonm

More time? Yeah, we're always creating time saving devices but then what happens? The expecations of what we're to do (within a particular time frame) increase so that we're no better off.

But you're looking at the people who are middle-aged and are working. What about the children, such as myself, or seniors? And how can you say we're no better off? Do you have a T.V.? Do you read books? You obviously have a computer, you probably go to movies, maybe even play in a sport on the weekends. The average Joe has two days a week where he doesn't have to do anything. Back then, if you did nothing for two days, you're tribe would hate you and you'd be cast out on your own, then probably killed within a month. And even if they had "weekends" back then, their life expectantcy was still less than half of ours, so we would have twice as many weekends as them by default.

[InvisibleDuncan]

Originally posted by goudabuddha
Back then you had a 50-50 chance of being killed by your dinner before you could actually eat it.

School dinners, eh?

[goudabuddha]

Originally posted by InvisibleDuncan
School dinners, eh?

Yeah....

I'm at school right now, it's "Mystery Meat" day...

[NotLKH]

Originally posted by Behemoth
The modern world disappoints me personally. I think to some degree I'd rather kill my own food than eat battery farmed eggs and genetically engineered tomatoes. Its just not practical in this day and age.

How does "Practical" relate? What do you mean by that?

[simonm]

Do you have a T.V.? Do you read books? You obviously have a computer, you probably go to movies, maybe even play in a sport on the weekends.

Yes, I do. But people in this day an age who don't get to participate in all these activities feel that they are left out. Back then, they weren't missing all of that because they never had it in the first place (could not even conceive of it).

[Behemoth]

Originally posted by NotLKH


How does "Practical" relate? What do you mean by that?

Sorry, that was a badly constructed sentence. What I meant was that it is impractical today to go off killing wildebeest and sharing the carcasses with my neighbours.

[mikeycorn]

If you look at the planet as a whole, I think a greater percentage of today's world population has an opportunity to create their own happiness than in past eras. You still have perhaps something like roughly half of today's world population doomed to a life of struggling and fighting to scratch out a meager existance, but I think the remainder of people who are fortunate enough to live in lands of opportunity is a much larger percentage now than any other time in history.

People like to think of the hunter / gatherer societies as a communal life where everyone was equal and the tribe was in balance with nature. I think in reality, this was probably very rare in much the same way that Marxism only works on paper. Sooner or later, most of the tribal societies probably could not resist the pull toward becoming feudal societies and slave societies.

[Behemoth]

Social groups evolve in much the same way as creatures do. The most stable structures survive (survival of the fittest). A sharing, tribal society works on paper, but as soon as an element such as greed or superiority creeps in, the model changes to a more stable structure, eg monarchy, feudalism etc.

[mikeycorn]

Exactly. I think nowadays there is more opportunity for people to rise above the class that they were born into than any other time in history.

[Behemoth]

Conversely, the human race has stopped evolving. Because even the "unfit" survive, necessary survival traits are watered down in the gene pool. The presence of "leisure time" goes some way to show how little we need to work to survive.

This is a little worrying though, because homo sapiens is not at the pinnacle of evolution. Relatively speaking we're quite a young species, and we need to keep evolving and adapting.

[mikeycorn]

Yeah, we might be better off now, but the future does look pretty bleak. I think the threat of nuclear holocaust is larger now than it ever was during the cold war, because now it could come from anywhere. It's not so much a matter of "if" but "when" a large number of civilians are going killed by nuclear weapons.

It kind of reminds me of a little song by The Police, lyrics by Sting.



Walking In Your Footsteps

Fifty million years ago
You walked upon the planet so,
Lord of all that you could see
Just a little bit like me,

Walking in your footsteps,
Walking in your footsteps.
Walking in your footsteps,
Walking in your footsteps.

Hey Mr. Dinosaur
You really couldn't ask for more.
You were God's favorite creature,
But you didn't have a future,

Walking in your footsteps,
Walking in your footsteps.
Walking in your footsteps,
Walking in your footsteps.

Hey there mighty brontosaurus
Don't you have a message for us.
You thought your rule would always last
There were no lessons in your past.
You were built three stories high
They say you would not hurt a fly
If we explode the atom bomb,
Would they say that we were dumb.

Walking in your footsteps,
Walking in your footsteps.
Walking in your footsteps,
Walking in your footsteps.

Fifty million years ago
They walked upon the planet so
They live in a museum
It's the only place you'll see 'em.

Walking in your footsteps....................

They say the meek shall inherit the earth....
They say the meek shall inherit the earth....

Walking in your footsteps....................

[Ali G]

Originally posted by mikeycorn
The Police

da pigs????? betta 'ide me 'erbal remedy qwick!

[beachbum]

I'm tentative about entering a thread where SimonM is and Kedaman may soon appear!! So, I'll say two quick things and then disappear

1) saw some doco (I think it was the Neanderthal series BBC) where they suggested that the early humans had a very recreational day ie they spent less than 4 hours per day on survival (hunting, finding shelter etc) and the rest of the time clubbing wives, laughing at Ed's spear making abilities and painting their hands onto caves.

(ps does anyone remember that hilarious welsh animated series called The Gogs )


2) It still disappoints me to this day that lions are not allowed to chase and eat fat people.

[NotLKH]

Originally posted by Behemoth
Sorry, that was a badly constructed sentence. What I meant was that it is impractical today to go off killing wildebeest and sharing the carcasses with my neighbours.

Hmm, wellllll.....


I've heard of a few Deer hunters who do exactly that during deer
season, and since it does put food on the table at a fraction of
the cost of what you would pay at a grocerie store, I would have
to say it is Very Practical.

Its just impractical outside of the season.

But, hey, hike into the backwoods, erect a cabin, and live off the land,
if thats what you want. Nothing wrong with that, nor impractical,
if it's something you want to do.

[Behemoth]

fair enough I suppose. Thats a different culture than we have in Britain.

I've adapted to supermarkets and convenience foods and so forth. It would make no difference at all if I hunted my own food. If everybody did however, the world would be a better place...well, sort of. You know what I mean...Don't you.

[Jethro]

Originally posted by beachbum
I'm tentative about entering a thread where SimonM is and Kedaman may soon appear!! So, I'll say two quick things and then disappear

Yeah psuedo-intellectualism puts me off as well.


1) saw some doco (I think it was the Neanderthal series BBC) where they suggested that the early humans had a very recreational day ie they spent less than 4 hours per day on survival (hunting, finding shelter etc) and the rest of the time clubbing wives, laughing at Ed's spear making abilities and painting their hands onto caves.

Naw, that was a doc on perth

(ps does anyone remember that hilarious welsh animated series called The Gogs )


That show rocked...almost as funny as the Welsh Rugby team


2) It still disappoints me to this day that lions are not allowed to chase and eat fat people.

Now that would be great TV.

We are better off today, cause the missus has all these gadgets to clean the house, before the lads come around to watch the cricket.....am sincerely hoping the cable modem hasn't been installed at home yet