American Foriegn Policy

[SurfDemon]

Okay, firstly, I don't want any Americans taking this thread the wrong way. This is not some sort of insult, no matter how you read it. I'm just trying to open up a discussion that struck me today.

I was talking to (okay, drinking with) an American today and he made the statement "The attacks on September 11th where because the rest of the world is jealous of our success".

My response was (I was probably sluring my words mind you) "So you don't feel that it could possibly have had anything to do with America's foriegn policy"

And he shocked me to the core by suddenly becoming very defensive and ranting about how America was "the most fairest nation on earth" and had "done more for world peace than any other nation on earth" and "America is the last line of defence against these people".

A number of things struck me at this stage (not least of which was the argumentative qualities of alchohol), so I asked him "So, you don't feel that America's foriegn policy annoys other nations?". He seemed amazed that I would even think that America would harm a fly abroad without first being attacked.

I then asked him about the trade war with Canada over the lumber (and how America illegaly adds a 32% tax to Canadian lumber - inspite of the free trade agreement - to protect their own lumber trade), the policy of arming the Isrealies against the Palestinians, the policy of Arming the Taliban against the Russians, the policy of bombing Libya (and killing children), the policy of carpet bombing Afghanistan, the policy of spying on European companies and providing the information back to American companies, the policy of refusing trading rights in America to European companies who might compete with their home grown industries.

And (I swear this is not a word of a lie), he denied that any of that was wrong, and that he didn't believe half of this hippy propoganda (I can verify all of the above points). This astounded me. Don't get me wrong, I think the events of September 11th were despicable and terrible, and make my heart grieve, but I cannot comprehend how such a person can be so self-righteous as to honestly believe that their country does no wrong. I come from a country (Britain) which has a terrible history of screwing up every country on earth, I accept this as one of the many short comings of my land, yet it doesn't mean that I am any less proud to be British. However, this chap seemed to believe that it was un-patriotic to say anything bad about America, and therefore he wouldn't do it. Hell, I've worked with Russian scientists (before Galsnost) who had more freedom of speech than this guy.

I realise that this guy does not speak for all Americans, but it really perturbed me to the core. This guy see's nothing wrong with breaking trade agreements, killing innocents (as long as they are not American), and inciting violence (as long as it's not on the American soil). I'm looking for the voice of reason, and I know I will find it on this website in the likes of Katie and Dennis. Someone, please tell me that you don't all feel this way, 'cause I have to say that at this very moment I'm pretty ticked off about the whole thing.

I might add, that at one stage he got very threatening (because I didn't believe that America was this great paragon of vitrue), until he leaned across the table pointing at me, and I stood up. It was at this point that he realised that I was a full foot taller than him and a good 100lb's heavier.

Sorry guys (Katie etc.), but I'm really ticked off about this. Does your news really hide so much from you, that you can't see why other nations get annoyed? Or is this guy an unusual case.

SD

[chrisjk]

Can't say I'm surprised

Did anyone see the emmys? That was rather "touching"

[Juan Carlos Rey]

Do you know the power of propaganda? Oh, excuse me, I didn't remember that thing called "free press"!

How can you insult the American Spirit? A country that consumes 25 % of global resources for a mere 5 % of global population must have a very agressive foreing policy ir order to sustain this status, don't you think so?

Do you think that USA is bombing Afghanistan only to catch a few bandits? Does petroleum has nothing to do with this? Have you heard anything about the Chechenian oil deposit, the only way out to sea being through Afghanistan, and Taliban regime not allowing an oleoduct in their country? Humm...!

[beachbum]

Actually SD the scary thing is that u had to open ur argument with a defence. I am noticing a very draconian attitude to anyone, politicians, press etc that dares to present a different side to the story from the black and white propoganda.

i agree that the events of sept 11 were terrible and gut wrenching. I dont think that the Taliban / Bin Laden are the righteous ones that spoke for all muslims but i do believe that u.s foreign policy has been very destructive and self serving over its short history. A case of "if we can, we will".

The problem now is that the u.s cant show a more gracious approach to foreign policy becos it will be seen politically as giving in to the view of terrorists. It's a crazy world !

[Kzin]

Originally posted by SurfDemon
It was at this point that he realised that I was a full foot taller than him and a good 100lb's heavier.

Presumably at this stage he could see that you had what he admires on your side might!

[simonm]

The passionate American patriotism probably has something to do with the "brain washing" ritual that all American school children have to endure every morning: Swearing an oath to America with one hand on the flag.

I couldn't believe it when I heard they had to do that. Unbelievable.

The problem is though that America are now finding themselves on the brunt of anti-western feelings after almost a thousand years of tension between East and West. America is now the focus for muslim resentment of the west, not just for their own actions, but for the actions of western countries over hundreds of years.

Another problem is that western education, and more crucially, the history is taught in schools generally touches very little on the relationship between east and west. Most Westerners are ignorant of a lot of things that has happenned between these two cultures over the centuries, things that the muslims themselves are much more aware of. Many westerners simply don't understand why there is so much resentment, mainly out of an ignorance of history.

[Kzin]

Originally posted by simonm
. . . anti-western feelings after almost a thousand years of tension between East and West. America is now the focus for muslim resentment of the west . . .

Simon - I'm very interested to hear your reasons but I'm not conviced about the validity of clumping the whole "West" into one faction and the whole "East" into another. There are huge numbers of ongoing and historically rooted issues between counties like Korea and Japan (or even China & Japan), India and Pakistan and many more. Presumably Spain is "western" but in 1898 they suffered a very nasty turn of US nationalism as have the counties in SurfDemon's example. Actually I think that the US has not got too bad a history of this sort of thing considering their huge power (and lack of self examination) but because the US has a longer reach economically and politically situations of this sort occur globally rather than locally.

What do you think?

[Before I get flamed out of the forum again by Americans just remember that we are just discussing an issue not screaming about who is right]

[Ali G]

yous would 'ave thought dat the killing of tousands of der own people wuld 'umble dem a bit, aiii

[simonm]

OK, I may be over simplifying here, but I believe my point remains largely valid.
Perhaps instead of saying east & west, I should have said the "Christian" world and the "Islamic" world.

[CiberTHuG]

I'm not going to ready very deep in this thread, and I only read the beginning of your post, SD, but yes, you're right. It was a result of our policies abroad. I'm not saying we should stop everything that we are doing. I'm just saying, somethings we shouldn't do half ass, and somethings we probably shouldn't do.

*shrug*

[Ali G]

i wish me Julie wuld do fings da hole ass, aaaiiii

wicked

[InvisibleDuncan]

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a country whose foreign policies don't cause trouble in at least some parts of the world. The advantage we in the UK have over the US is that our leaders are so clearly puppets of the US that the Americans get blamed for any of our perceived wrongdoings, at least by the muslim fundamentalist maniac division.

I saw a report on the BBC news site the other day where Tony Blair was referred to as "the quiet American". Quite fitting, I thought.

[Ali G]

i saw on da news on da BCC dat Tony Blur was da messenga of Gorge Bush...I is like, dat is not wicked, aiii

[kovan]

Originally posted by SurfDemon
Okay, firstly, I don't want any Americans taking this thread the wrong way. This is not some sort of insult, no matter how you read it. I'm just trying to open up a discussion that struck me today.

I was talking to (okay, drinking with) an American today and he made the statement "The attacks on September 11th where because the rest of the world is jealous of our success".

My response was (I was probably sluring my words mind you) "So you don't feel that it could possibly have had anything to do with America's foriegn policy"

And he shocked me to the core by suddenly becoming very defensive and ranting about how America was "the most fairest nation on earth" and had "done more for world peace than any other nation on earth" and "America is the last line of defence against these people".

A number of things struck me at this stage (not least of which was the argumentative qualities of alchohol), so I asked him "So, you don't feel that America's foriegn policy annoys other nations?". He seemed amazed that I would even think that America would harm a fly abroad without first being attacked.

I then asked him about the trade war with Canada over the lumber (and how America illegaly adds a 32% tax to Canadian lumber - inspite of the free trade agreement - to protect their own lumber trade), the policy of arming the Isrealies against the Palestinians, the policy of Arming the Taliban against the Russians, the policy of bombing Libya (and killing children), the policy of carpet bombing Afghanistan, the policy of spying on European companies and providing the information back to American companies, the policy of refusing trading rights in America to European companies who might compete with their home grown industries.

And (I swear this is not a word of a lie), he denied that any of that was wrong, and that he didn't believe half of this hippy propoganda (I can verify all of the above points). This astounded me. Don't get me wrong, I think the events of September 11th were despicable and terrible, and make my heart grieve, but I cannot comprehend how such a person can be so self-righteous as to honestly believe that their country does no wrong. I come from a country (Britain) which has a terrible history of screwing up every country on earth, I accept this as one of the many short comings of my land, yet it doesn't mean that I am any less proud to be British. However, this chap seemed to believe that it was un-patriotic to say anything bad about America, and therefore he wouldn't do it. Hell, I've worked with Russian scientists (before Galsnost) who had more freedom of speech than this guy.

I realise that this guy does not speak for all Americans, but it really perturbed me to the core. This guy see's nothing wrong with breaking trade agreements, killing innocents (as long as they are not American), and inciting violence (as long as it's not on the American soil). I'm looking for the voice of reason, and I know I will find it on this website in the likes of Katie and Dennis. Someone, please tell me that you don't all feel this way, 'cause I have to say that at this very moment I'm pretty ticked off about the whole thing.

I might add, that at one stage he got very threatening (because I didn't believe that America was this great paragon of vitrue), until he leaned across the table pointing at me, and I stood up. It was at this point that he realised that I was a full foot taller than him and a good 100lb's heavier.

Sorry guys (Katie etc.), but I'm really ticked off about this. Does your news really hide so much from you, that you can't see why other nations get annoyed? Or is this guy an unusual case.

SD

so i am not the only one that feels this way
cool cool

what i cant believe is that our stupid gov't is not standing upto this

ESPECIALY the lumber issue

i wonder if this will lead to "Canadian Terrorism"

[Ianpbaker]

Originally posted by kovan

i wonder if this will lead to "Canadian Terrorism"

Is that like being bombed by mooses

[barrk]

Okay.........first let me say this. I am not offended or upset by anything that was said...I don't know whether you guys were just walking on eggshells to avoid hurting American's feelings or if you actually are just stating opinions but I certainly didn't feeling any hatred or animosity towards Americans in this thread (which is unusual, you must admit).

Sd...unfortunately, the guy you were drinking with holds an opinion I've heard expressed many times since September 11th. Perhaps it's denial or maybe it's just ignorance or even both but it is definitely felt by more than just your drinking buddy.

Simonm...American children do indeed say the pledge of allegiance to the flag every morning...they do not have one hand on the flag though. We recite it with the right hand over our hearts.

The US has been taken on a great deal of responsiblity along with the title Super Power and I really believe we have done our best to help the world. Along with that responsibility is our President's responsibility to our citizens. This requires a tough balancing act that often gets us in huge trouble with the world. In doing this balancing act I believe that we have done some very stupid things in the way of foriegn policy. We also change leaders and policy with each new administration. This doesn't help.

To the people who think that America just makes foreign policy because we can so we will. Just think what we could do that we haven't. Thank God that we aren't as uncaring or greedy as people portray us or we would have taken over the countries we have been asked to assist long ago!

[Ali G]

wot evers yous do, don't storm cuba, uverwise me mate Dave would be outta work, aiii

[kovan]

Originally posted by Ianpbaker


Is that like being bombed by mooses

there is another idea.. hehe

lately a lot of canadians are getting pissed of at the action of US gov't

so we might have to send our beavers down there,

[simonm]

Katie

We also change leaders and policy with each new administration. This doesn't help.

You know the solution to that then, don't you? Do away with democracy and have a dictator. You will then be able to project a consistant foreign policy

[Ianpbaker]

I would have thought you would have wanted to keep all your beaver's to yourselves

[barrk]

Don't worry, Cuba is safe!

I also forgot to make one other point. Why would we entering into the Afghan war and risk pissing off the Arab world that supplies us oil if the Afghan War was about oil? If we were really so bent on getting the oil, why haven't we gone in and just taken over the Middle East long ago?

We have been providing food and aid to Afghanistan for years. Why didn't we just let them starve and take over their country if that was our goal? We didn't just arbitrarily decide to bomb Afghanistan for no reason. We were attacked!!!!!

[barrk]

Originally posted by simonm
Katie

You know the solution to that then, don't you? Do away with democracy and have a dictator. You will then be able to project a consistant foreign policy

Great idea! I'm sure the American people would love that! It would cut down on the number of people immigrating here though. They'd have to go to England to be free then. You don't mind, do you?

[Ali G]

Originally posted by barrk
Don't worry, Cuba is safe!

wicked. wot abou' columbia?

[InvisibleDuncan]

Mind you, I'm sometimes surprised by what people expect from America. An acquaintance (I'd hesitate to call him a friend) once complained that American films were a form of cultural imperialism, in that they portrayed America as, in general, a better place to be than anywhere else. He considered this to be a particularly offensive form of none-too-subtle global brainwashing.

He was a little put out by my argument that US films were made for the US audience, and that they therefore had a right to consider themselves the good guys. Nobody forces the rest of the world to watch these films, I argued, and they can pay to see their own home-grown films if they prefer. He disputed this, claiming that because other countries watched them, the makers had a moral obligation not to play up the benefits of their own culture.

Shortly after that marvellously thought-out declaration, I left the pub.

[kovan]

Originally posted by Ianpbaker
I would have thought you would have wanted to keep all your beaver's to yourselves

we are proud to be represented by the handsome beaver
so when a beaver dies in the battle field, we shall honour that beaver and wear their tails on our left part of our chest to show our respect to the warrior of Canada

[simonm]

Great idea! I'm sure the American people would love that! It would cut down on the number of people immigrating here though. They'd have to go to England to be free then. You don't mind, do you?

Yeah, we've got loads of room. Bring 'em on!

[Ali G]

Originally posted by barrk
They'd have to go to England to be free then. You don't mind, do you?

I is not 'avin' any more of dem imigrants, dey join da east staines massiv wiv offas of free bitches

Me West side boyz are wicked, aiii

[barrk]

That's another foreign policy train wreck just waiting to happen. This problem won't go away until the demand for drugs does.....in other words, never. Yet we still intervene........stupid.

[Ianpbaker]

kovan, I was refering to the other term associated with beaver, but if you want to put one of them on your chest when it dead, then each to their own I suppose

[barrk]

Americans are easy targets for all kinds of ridiculous complaints like the film industry one. We are nit-picked and put under a magnifying glass and judged for everything....you would think there are enough legitimate complaints that they wouldn't have to look quite so hard.....yet there we have it. I doubt any country could live up to the standards you impose on our country. There are problems with each of them if you inspect them as closely as we are inspected by the world....if every breathe of every citizen was listened to as we seem to be.

[Ali G]

Originally posted by barrk
That's another foreign policy train wreck just waiting to happen. This problem won't go away until the demand for drugs does.....in other words, never. Yet we still intervene........stupid.

me mate Date is linin' up some contacs wiv da afgans. 'pparently dey are da world's biggest makers of opium an' 'eroin

Dave suld get 'imself a ***** rather dan do da 'erbal remedy.

boyakasha

[kovan]

Originally posted by Ianpbaker
kovan, I was refering to the other term associated with beaver, but if you want to put one of them on your chest when it dead, then each to their own I suppose

maybe the other beaver term is only an england's english
or maybe its my lack of english but i was refering to the BEAVER
hehe

[Ianpbaker]

polietly put, it's slang for the female genitalia

[InvisibleDuncan]

Originally posted by barrk
I doubt any country could live up to the standards you impose on our country.

Not me, Guv. If you could learn to spell simple words like "colour" and "honour", I wouldn't have a problem with you.

[Ali G]

dat is so annoyin'. geezers who can't speel are batty boyz




Note to SD: SD, you spelt an important word in the subject of this thread incorrectly. Tut tut.

[kovan]

Originally posted by Ianpbaker
polietly put, it's slang for the female genitalia

hehehe

than that is DEFINATELY an england word
we have other beautiful words for that which i may not get into as i so humbly dont want to offend anyone

[InvisibleDuncan]

It's American slang, not British.

[Ianpbaker]

furry muff, I knew that

[kovan]

then maybe i am behind on something

we have a P word, C word, S word, another C word

no B words though

[Ianpbaker]

Originally posted by kovan
then maybe i am behind on something

we have a P word, C word, S word, another C word

The mind boggle's