Altruistism, what? how? why?

[kedaman]

Simon
Ok, I am not a solipsist in that aspect that I don't believe the reality is a projection of my mind. I don't believe in anything in general, which means I take anything to be possible, however I limit my reality by indentifying a limited quantity of information, as well as myself. So basically derived from "I think therefore I am".

How can I be altruistic?

Simply: without altruism I wouldn't have got this far. Much of my worldview builds on altruistical concepts, evolved as a biproduct for societies, which is responsible for our progress in a vast variety of information. That sounds like abstraction for abstraction so i'll pick a couple of examples, science has evolved from societies as well as need for emotional contact.

Well, lot's more to discuss of, what do you say?

[jim mcnamara]

Altruism -

Two dictionary definitions --

Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

Instinctive cooperative behavior that is detrimental to the individual but contributes to the survival of the species.


The second definition definitely applies to people.

[simonm]

Firstly, just to query your view on reality.

I don't believe in anything in general, which means I take anything to be possible, however I limit my reality by indentifying a limited quantity of information, as well as myself.

I would be interested to know, what information, in addition to yourself, do you accept as reality? How do you know it is reality and what criteria do you use to judge what information is reality and what isn't?

As for Alturism, I'm not sure we understand it to mean the same thing.

As I understand it, one is considered to act alturistically if they act outside of their own self-interests for the purpose of the common good.

Note, it is not considered alturistic for one who, whilst acting in the interests of others, also happens to be acting in their own interests.

I am not even convinced that true alturism is possible if you consider the most convoluted types of self-interest that we enjoy (being the complex individuals that we are). Is it possible for a person to act entirely selflessly?

[CiberTHuG]

Uhm... I think you could say there is very little altruism in human nature, and I don't see how you got anywhere, Kedaman, with altruism.

You existance is either an act of selfishness, vainity, or attempt at power by one or more parties, as is everyone's life. I don't see he altruism. *shrug*

[barrk]

I don't think that there can be such a thing as an altruistic act. I would gladly give up my life for the safety of my children. If a car were barreling towards my daughter I would push her out of the way and let the car hit me. Is this an altruistic act? No. I would die happy knowing that I had saved my daughter and therefore in a perverse way gain some satisfaction from doing this. Would I conciously think about that satisfaction? No. But keeping her happy makes me happy so it can no longer be defined as altruistic.

I have tried my best to think of any viable example of altruism and it all comes back to the fact that humans like to do things for other people and therefore there is no such thing as altruism.


IMHO

[Ianpbaker]

Originally posted by barrk


I have tried my best to think of any viable example of altruism and it all comes back to the fact that humans like to do things for other people

And they enjoy doing some thing's more than other's

Nudge, nudge
Wink, wink

Sorry, I just oculdn't restrain my self enough to not put that in

[simonm]

Katie

I don't think that there can be such a thing as an altruistic act.

Ah, but do you think there is any such thing as alturistic thoughts? Or is that just meaningless?

[kedaman]

Simon

I would be interested to know, what information, in addition to yourself, do you accept as reality? How do you know it is reality and what criteria do you use to judge what information is reality and what isn't?

Information is real, definitely. It's pointless to say "I think, therefore I am" without having anything to think about.
The meaning accumulated in the information contain an objective universe which is projected into your subjective mind, aka conscious part of you.

As for Alturism, I'm not sure we understand it to mean the same thing.

As I understand it, one is considered to act alturistically if they act outside of their own self-interests for the purpose of the common good.

Note, it is not considered alturistic for one who, whilst acting in the interests of others, also happens to be acting in their own interests.

I am not even convinced that true alturism is possible if you consider the most convoluted types of self-interest that we enjoy (being the complex individuals that we are). Is it possible for a person to act entirely selflessly?

Talk about imaginary and real components of a random complex value. How much of your efforts do you "offer" to accomplish your own task, to others? If you're truly expert on selfishness you would calculate the selfishness efficiency, minimizing the phase variance in your actions to cause peak results for your efforts. What other dimensions do you see now? others? Yes, you might be slightly altruistic without even knowing it.

Altruism is subjective though, in someone else's view you might have been altruistic but in your own perspective you would just act selfish. An altruistic thought is in the perspective of the thinker.

[kedaman]

Damn You guys are pessimistic!
What are you doing here in chit chat all day?!?!?

[barrk]

Originally posted by simonm
Katie

Ah, but do you think there is any such thing as alturistic thoughts? Or is that just meaningless?

[Simon]
It is not meaningless but I don't think it really exists. You think "Mrs. Hobbes next door is very nice and I would like to do something for her". This thought is mostly about your fondness for Mrs. Hobbes, but you would like to do something nice for her because doing so would bring you pleasure as well as her. Therefore it negates the definition of altruism. Can you give me an example of an altruistic thought?

P.S. I'm not wishing to argue with you....just a discussion.



[Kedaman]
I don't think that is pessimistic at all. Not believing that altruism exists doesn't mean that people can't do or think nice things about other people. It just means that you don't do it for solely unselfish reasons. You do it because it is human nature to do so. Just as feeling good about doing it is human nature, not altruism. People will always continue to do things for others. It is the way society works.....thank goodness!!!!!!

[kedaman]

Now this reminds me of the discussion we had earlier about randomness, does "true" randomness actually exist, or is it an illusion caused by unpredictability, lack of knowledge?

Katie

It just means that you don't do it for solely unselfish reasons

why don't you say "only for selfish reasons"? Why do you say "not only unselfish reasons"? That makes it sound like you knew there IS unselfish reasons as well as selfish reasons in every decision you make. Is it this you want to tell me, that there is no "pure" altruism, but that there is decisions that are more or less altruistic? In that case we are allmost in agreement.

I agree on how society works, and I am part of it as well, without it I wouldn't be much!

[kedaman]

Btw, I just put up WinMX this morning for apparently no reason other than to share my music with people. Can you argue that it is not purely altruistic?

[barrk]

Did you do it because it pleased you to do so?

I think you are confusing unselfishness with altruism. People do a lot of unselfish things because it pleases them to be unselfish. These are not acts of altruism....just being sociable. There is nothing wrong with doing things to please others, I try to do so whenever possible, but it is not altruism as I am getting something out of it by being a good citizen and productive member of society. When those around me are happy, it makes me happy. Not altruistic at all!

[kedaman]

Nope, why would it please me to have some people draining my bandwidth? I don't know who they are and how happy they are about my music so it doesn't please me.

It's a question of definition then, because i picked the dictionary definition of altruism, which is synonymous to selflessness.

I don't know if you can read other peoples minds, but i assume you only know how you think yourself, if everyone else acts in a way that seems altruistic to you, you extrapolate your own way of thinking saying that is just to please themselves. Is that logical?

Only a solipsist can be truly selfish, because he/she believes there are no other conscious beings around him/her, they are just creations of her/his mind.

Btw, some people hurt themselves while alone, it doesn't please them, why do they do so? Does the human mind always have to be logically perfect and always do what is good for her/his own good?

[simonm]

Kedaman

I don't believe there is any "selflessness" behing any action people make.

Nope, why would it please me to have some people draining my bandwidth? I don't know who they are and how happy they are about my music so it doesn't please me.

Do you get a sensation of pleasure from the fact that you are offering somehting freely to others without any notion of physical or emotional reward?
If not, why did you do it?
I don't know about you but I get pleasure from exposing others to music from my music collection. I can only assume that you are the same, even if you do so without looking for emotional feedback (perhaps you get pleasure from that fact that you are doing something without looking for emotional reward).

Btw, some people hurt themselves while alone, it doesn't please them, why do they do so? Does the human mind always have to be logically perfect and always do what is good for her/his own good?

I would suggest that hurting themselves does please themselves, in a strange and perverse way. Many people self-mutilate to detract from (a far worse) emotional pain. It gives them a more immediate thing to focus on that takes their mind off worse things.

We could go on citing examples and counter-examples all day but as you rightly stated, it is a subjective thing and there's no way anyone can truly judge other people.

But ask yourself, truly look deep withing yourself and can you still tell me you don't get some sort of emotional reward for performing actions that might seem alturistic? If you don't see any emotional benefit, why do you do them?

Katie

I was being sarcastic when I said about alturistic thoughts. I was quoting Kedaman there.

P.S. I'm not wishing to argue with you....just a discussion.

Do I really come accross that argumentative? I'm shocked!

[beachbum]

If I walk a little old lady across the street I expect a couple of dollars - none of that silver crap.. I want the gold coins. And if she doesnt pay then damn her, i put her back in the middle of the road and then spin her around to make her dizzy. These old people are so selfish with their pension money

[kedaman]

Originally posted by simonm
[B]Kedaman

I don't believe there is any "selflessness" behing any action people make.

Do you get a sensation of pleasure from the fact that you are offering somehting freely to others without any notion of physical or emotional reward?
If not, why did you do it?
I don't know about you but I get pleasure from exposing others to music from my music collection. I can only assume that you are the same, even if you do so without looking for emotional feedback (perhaps you get pleasure from that fact that you are doing something without looking for emotional reward).

No, you don't understand it then. I would be glad if someone told me he liked my music, but since I have no idea what they're going to think, I don't feel anything either. I usually do look for emotional reward, but sometimes I just don't know why I do things, I guess it is "pure" altruism.

I would suggest that hurting themselves does please themselves, in a strange and perverse way. Many people self-mutilate to detract from (a far worse) emotional pain. It gives them a more immediate thing to focus on that takes their mind off worse things.

No, I think they hate themselves in some way they can't resist to punish themselves for something. Peoples mind are complex, you don't have to think everything is green because you see everything green.

We could go on citing examples and counter-examples all day but as you rightly stated, it is a subjective thing and there's no way anyone can truly judge other people.

I jusge people all the time, for my self that is, my brain does judgement all the time, it is subjective of course but it is nessesary for me to do interactions that doesn't go against my norms. My judgements about other people is very critical though, they are of less weight when trying to jump to conclusions, and I don't rely on them to be even nearly usefull.

But ask yourself, truly look deep withing yourself and can you still tell me you don't get some sort of emotional reward for performing actions that might seem alturistic? If you don't see any emotional benefit, why do you do them?

I don't know. Altruism to me is a fundamental component when doing decisions. You do your decisions twodimensionally, and sometimes I do things only purely altruistically. I can think of a few examples in my life when I do things I actually should not have done. I am not sure if you others do such things, but I am almost sure that if you have done, you probably haven't noticed it either. I don't notice all altruistic things I do, just a few of them, like yesterday morning when I put on WinMX just for other people to download my mp3's. Usually you only notice when you have done something for or against yourself.

[simonm]

Kedaman

No, you don't understand it then. I would be glad if someone told me he liked my music, but since I have no idea what they're going to think, I don't feel anything either.

I disagree with that. Just becasue you don't get emotional feedback from other doesn't mean you aren't getting emotional reward yourself. Perhaps you just imagine other people's reactions when accessing your music.

As you have stated, people are complex and the reasons and motivations are not always obvious. Much comes from subconsious motivation so even though we might not be aware of th reason why we do something, it doesn't make it alturistic.

No, I think they hate themselves in some way they can't resist to punish themselves for something. Peoples mind are complex, you don't have to think everything is green because you see everything green.

And does punishing themselves not make them feel better (even if just for a moment)? Like you say, people's minds are complex indeed and the motivations may not be immediately obvious. I still think it is a big leap to suggest that they are alturistic though.

[kedaman]

Simon

I disagree with that. Just becasue you don't get emotional feedback from other doesn't mean you aren't getting emotional reward yourself. Perhaps you just imagine other people's reactions when accessing your music.

How can you say that? Do you think i'm lying or trying to suppress what I feel? I know myself much enough to interpret my own feelings. I did NOT feel anything at all. If I would have noticed that it was a bad decision from my own POV I might have cancelled the action of starting WinMX, but since I didn't, I just turned it on based on that other people will be able to download my music, which was my original intention.

As you have stated, people are complex and the reasons and motivations are not always obvious. Much comes from subconsious motivation so even though we might not be aware of th reason why we do something, it doesn't make it alturistic.

You know pretty much what I consider subconscious. My decisions are directed by my motivation, the information is the tool, not the source of action.

You know i'm starting to wonder how you really define altruism. It is almost like you think of it as opposite to egoism. I think altruism and egoism is not the unit of a scalar, but fundamentally different components.

And does punishing themselves not make them feel better (even if just for a moment)? Like you say, people's minds are complex indeed and the motivations may not be immediately obvious. I still think it is a big leap to suggest that they are alturistic though.

I didn't say that. I said that they act against themselves, sort of negative egoism.

[simonm]

I did NOT feel anything at all.

More like you were not consiously aware of your motivation and emotional reward.

Look, I'm not trying to tell you how you think. I just interpret what I see differently. I do not think it makes sense to act out of one's own interests. To you it does so, fair enough.

[kedaman]

perhaps we just discuss the same phenomenon with different definitions. However the transformation doesn't work at all times.

ex, transform the vertical line going trough 0,0 into a linear equation f(x)

[simonm]

Kedaman

perhaps we just discuss the same phenomenon with different definitions

I suspect that happens a lot between us to!

[kedaman]

Simon
Well

Call it what you want, I call it Altruism.

[simonm]

I call it "Selfishness"!

[kedaman]

Originally posted by simonm
I call it "Selfishness"!

Why? Why do you need to define it if you think all your actions are selfish?

[simonm]

Why? Why do you need to define it if you think all your actions are selfish?

I define it as a myth. Something that, evolutionry speaking, makes no sense.

Let me ask you this: Why did we evolve "alturism"? Are we the only species to have it? What evolutionary benefit does it offer?

[kedaman]

Ants, look at them.

Societies have unique benefits compared to individualist species in terms of efficiency.

[simonm]

In the case of ants and bees (and other such societies), a new high level selfish entity has emerged. The body national. The individual ants have been relegated to more components of this higher level being which is not alturistic attall. It is completely selfish.

Perhaps it is a natural progression for individuals to form societies. Societies become stronger as individuals increasingly put the needs of the "collective" above that of their own. Once this process is compelte, the individuals have ceased to be important (as individuals). The "collective" awareness has fully emerged as the new, selfish individual.

[kedaman]

Nice analogy simon, but how does it relate to consciousness?

[simonm]

Kedaman

...but how does it relate to consciousness?

I don't see a problem there.
Consiousness, as I understand it, is made up of a society of competing belief patterns. These belief pattens are, in their own way, alive. The emergent property of this "eco-system" of beliefs is consiousness.

Now what if one day, a new high level entity would emerge from the "eco-system" of consiousnesses? Individual consiousnesses would become mere components in this new, higher level entity (call it a collective consiousness).

Obviously, this cycle of evolving higher and higher level beings is potentially endless. When the actions of individuals appear alturistic, they are the first signs that a new, high level individual is beginning to emerge from the collective interactions of it's components.

[kedaman]

You mean like as if a single cell in our body had it's own tiny consciousness, the humanity, or why not all life on the planet would have a single gigantic consciousness?

[simonm]

Yeah, why not?

I'm not sure if the earth truly is alive. It is definitely a self-organising system though.

[kedaman]

Yeah that is intriguing. But how do you feel it, or do you just define it?

[simonm]

But how do you feel it, or do you just define it?

Err... Have I missed something here? How do I feel what?

[kedaman]

how do you feel that you are part of Gaia?

[simonm]

I don't know if I "feel" partof gaia or not. But, since the notion of gaia itself includes all life on earth, I guess I must be. I don't feel that I am a mere component of a higher being. I am an individual and therefore inherantly selfish. But, maybe we are evolving into a collective and a new, hyper individual is emerging.

Only time will tell.