Israel?

[FunkyDexter]

Oh, I think I'm getting you. You're saying that the Israel's response is a manifestation of their need to "do something" in response to October 7th. Just as the American invasion of Afghanistan (and Iraq, I think) post 9/11 was a manifestation of their need to "do something" in response to a similarly awful terrorist attack. (I guess I could go back through history and find lots of similar examples.) That when a society is attacked it feels a need to respond and the response doesn't necessarily need to be rational, it just needs to be... something. Have I got you right?

If so, yeah, that's exactly what I see happening in this situation. The public's response is based in raw emotion and, while I may not agree with the response, I find it hard to assign them blame for having it and I don't feel there's much they can do to either push or reign in the response between elections beyond protesting and/or speaking out individually - both of which I've seen.

The leadership, on the other hand, has agency. They get to decide where to send the bombs and the soldiers so, for me, the blame lies wholly on their shoulders.

[wes4dbt]

All that's to say that they shouldn't send bombs or soldiers, they should be sending ambassadors to get a peace agreement in place at once, but there's simply no political will to do that.

Yeah, there hasn't seem to have been for many decades. Wonder when the last time was that Israelis elected a PM who ran on a seeking peace platform and if they did, how long did they last.

[Shaggy Hiker]

The Israeli right wing and Hamas, want the same thing: No peace. Both might say that their ultimate goal is something beyond that, but in the case of Hamas, even that's in doubt. The right wing in Israel wants to annex the West Bank and Gaza, though only without the Palestinians in there. Peace would foil that. Hamas loses strength whenever there is a whiff of peace. Therefore, if one doesn't whip up some conflict, then the other one will.

[TysonLPrice]

Have I got you right?

Yes...I was less then articulate.

[FunkyDexter]

I don't know how this gets resolved

The closest analogue I can think of in recent history is South Africa. In that case International pressure led to the minority, power holding Whites to relinquish that power AND it took the majority, disenfranchised Blacks to sincerely forgive. If either of those fails to happen you either get an ongoing status quo or a massacre. It took some really big political figures to step forward on both sides for it to happen, particularly on the Black side because forgiveness is surprisingly hard.

Could that happen in the Levant? It could but it seems highly unlikely given the current leadership on both sides. Couple that with the International pressures on both sides aren't exactly benign (Hamas are basically an Iranian puppet and the West really should be supporting the oppressees rather than the oppressors) and it feels a long way off.

The Israeli right wing and Hamas, want the same thing: No peace. Both might say that their ultimate goal is something beyond that, but in the case of Hamas, even that's in doubt. The right wing in Israel wants to annex the West Bank and Gaza, though only without the Palestinians in there. Peace would foil that. Hamas loses strength whenever there is a whiff of peace. Therefore, if one doesn't whip up some conflict, then the other one will.

^Yeah, that.

Yes...I was less then articulate.

Well, I was less than literate so I guess we matched.

[wes4dbt]

The ICJ reminds me of the UN. Great ideas in theory but very ineffective in real life. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/...ernational-law

I believe the ICJ has already said Netanyahu is committing war crimes. That had no effect.

The international community has known for years that Israel is illegally annexing Palestinian territory but has done nothing more than wag their finger once in a while. After which they send Israel more support. The world will make you shake your head if you pay much attention to it. lol

[TysonLPrice]

"Trump to meet Netanyahu Friday at Mar-a-Lago

https://www.axios.com/2024/07/23/tru...-a-lago-israel

He is putting his eggs in one basket.

Edit: He is smarter than I was thinking. He can get Trump to tell the republicans in congress how to vote. Just like Trump did with the border bill.

[wes4dbt]

This is a lot different story than what you read in the Israeli Times, https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...against-israel

They say "the ICJ compelled the international community to take action" but so far nothing like that has happened. To bad.

Meanwhile, the US welcomes Netanyahu.

[TysonLPrice]

Israeli minister says it may be ‘moral’ to starve 2 million Gazans, but ‘no one in the world would let us’

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/06/middl...ntl/index.html

They are just saying it out loud now, it has been the de facto plan for a while.

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah. In all honesty I think they've been being pretty naked about it for a while.

I'm nervous to see how the situation with Hezbollah plays out. Hezbollah dwarf Hamas, they're well equipped and they're hardened from fighting in Syria. That is not likely to be an easy fight for Israel like Gaza has been.

[TysonLPrice]

Yeah. In all honesty I think they've been being pretty naked about it for a while.

I'm nervous to see how the situation with Hezbollah plays out. Hezbollah dwarf Hamas, they're well equipped and they're hardened from fighting in Syria. That is not likely to be an easy fight for Israel like Gaza has been.

Oh the irony...the Israelis have a "final solution".

[FunkyDexter]

Israel is incentivized to start a conflict with Hezbollah. Not only would that put the atrocities of what they are doing in Gaza out of the limelight, but they know that there is a chance that the United States would not only boost support but could also become actively engaged since Hezbollah would be seen as the golden ticket in starting a war in Iran.

I think that's very likely true but it's a helluva high states gamble. Nobody really knows the size of Hezbollah but I've seen estimates from credible source that they substantially outnumber the IDF. If the US didn't come to Israel's aid they could find themselves in real trouble.

[TysonLPrice]

I know in the past she was good on when Trump pulled out of the Iran nuclear agreement

I'm curious where your information on that came from. She slammed President Donald Trump and pledged to "rejoin" the Paris agreement on Climate Change and "strengthen and re-enter" the Iran nuclear deal.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/us-e...e-deal-2287176

And Trump's own campaign slams here for being for being against his withdrawal. In general the democratic response to Trump's withdrawal of the deal was negative.

[wes4dbt]

Dude you are so partisan you can't even see when I'm complementing her?

I read that sentence several times because I thought you were saying she agreed with Trump, and that surprised me.

I know in the past she was good on when Trump pulled out of the Iran nuclear agreement

I wouldn't blame my interpretation on being partisan even though I am.

[wes4dbt]

It really disappoints me how blindly the US supports Israel. If Russia bombed other countries to assassinate rivals there would be a united cry of outrage on capital hill. Israel does it and we send more support. For some reason it's the US job to protect Israel, right or wrong.

[TysonLPrice]

Dude you are so partisan you can't even see when I'm complementing her?

I'm saying she was good on the Iran nuclear deal. She disagreed with Trump's decision to pull out of it then and she wants to reinstate it.

I just don't know what her stance is today on if she would go to war with Iran and the silver lining that she wouldn't support it is her position on the nuclear agreement.

You are right about me being partisan but I guess I msi-read it. I thought you were saying she agreed with him. My bad

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'm afraid I misunderstood the original statement, at first, too, though I got it right before DDay clarified. I thought he was just pandering to the UK contingent with his wording...or maybe "good on ya" is more Australian?

Israel would have to be crazy to pick a fight with Hezbollah, and vice versa. Both sides have too much to lose from a real ground war.

[wes4dbt]

or maybe "good on ya" is more Australian?

I also thought of that saying after DD explained what he meant. lol

[TysonLPrice]

It really disappoints me how blindly the US supports Israel. If Russia bombed other countries to assassinate rivals there would be a united cry of outrage on capital hill. Israel does it and we send more support. For some reason it's the US job to protect Israel, right or wrong.

The US is the very first nation to recognize Israel as a nation. To hell with the people that were already living there, they are just finishing the conquer now, and the US is the first to support it.

[wes4dbt]

The US is the very first nation to recognize Israel as a nation. To hell with the people that were already living there, they are just finishing the conquer now, and the US is the first to support it.

I don't think it has to do with that. All those people are gone alone time ago. Though it could be that we can't bring ourselves to admit we've been wrong.

My guess is it has to do with it being politically advantageous. The Jewish community must control a lot of voting power. Which seems strange to me because on the west coast it's not a very large group. Israel doesn't really bring much to the table as a country.

[TysonLPrice]

I don't think it has to do with that. All those people are gone alone time ago. Though it could be that we can't bring ourselves to admit we've been wrong.

My guess is it has to do with it being politically advantageous. The Jewish community must control a lot of voting power. Which seems strange to me because on the west coast it's not a very large group. Israel doesn't really bring much to the table as a country.

Bur their ancestors are there, Israel doesn't want a two state solution that I can see. Therefore, you have to get rid of the survivors of those conquered

.

[wes4dbt]

Iran/Hezbollah has been eerily quiet the past week or so after Israel killed someone in their country. Not sure that's a good or bad thing. They usually are lobbing rockets or something at Israel on a regular basis. Maybe they have and I just didn't see the headline.

[TysonLPrice]

Iran/Hezbollah has been eerily quiet the past week or so after Israel killed someone in their country. Not sure that's a good or bad thing. They usually are lobbing rockets or something at Israel on a regular basis. Maybe they have and I just didn't see the headline.

I suspect behind the scenes every ounce of pressure the US has is pushing Iran to standdown.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Iran has a bit of political infighting going on, currently, which probably makes the situation more complicated. The VP just stepped down as a result of the tensions surrounding the new president. Whether that means they are just delaying, or are more amenable to outside pressures trying to get them to stand down, it may be that nobody knows for sure. After all, they may really need to be delaying anyhow, so extracting some benefit from the necessity doesn't make the necessary any less so.

[wes4dbt]

I suspect behind the scenes every ounce of pressure the US has is pushing Iran to standdown.

Why??? Israel didn't consult the US before taking this action. I think it's about time the US stops blindly going to Israel's aid. But I'm repeating myself. That's what happens when you get old.

[TysonLPrice]

Why??? Israel didn't consult the US before taking this action. I think it's about time the US stops blindly going to Israel's aid. But I'm repeating myself. That's what happens when you get old.

I think at this point it is just trying to contain the explosion. I go back even farther than that and still ask why. The US was the very first to nation agree taking that land was "legal". Who else have we given nuclear weapons to?

[wes4dbt]

This is very encouraging. https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news...071406241.html

Even though it's only because the hostages and not for the killing of 10's of thousands innocent palestinians it's a good thing.

[wes4dbt]

Israel's willingness to kill innocent Palestinians is still going strong, https://www.npr.org/2024/09/10/g-s1-...si-khan-younis

The willingness of the rest of the world to just shrug their shoulders is still going strong.

I really did think there would be a stronger push back by now. It's disappointing.











i

[TysonLPrice]

Israel's willingness to kill innocent Palestinians is still going strong, https://www.npr.org/2024/09/10/g-s1-...si-khan-younis

The willingness of the rest of the world to just shrug their shoulders is still going strong.

I really did think there would be a stronger push back by now. It's disappointing.

It pales next to what is going on in Africa...where?

[OptionBase1]

Coordinated attack in Lebanon where pagers simultaneously explode. Unknown dead, thousands reported injured. Unbelievable. Israel is suspected to be behind the attack. These pagers were recently distributed to suspected members of Hezbollah.

Not good.

[wes4dbt]

I agree, it's not good but killing each other seems to be the only solutions they want. They've been doing it for over 75+ years and I don't see it ending any time soon. I realize that's a very negative response but the lack of growth in their humanity towards each other is very disappointing and hard to understand. All the innocent lives so easily taken is shameful.

killed at least eight people and wounded 2,750 others

That seems strange, so many injured and so few deaths. Then again how much explosives can you fit in a pager?

[TysonLPrice]

Coordinated attack in Lebanon where pagers simultaneously explode. Unknown dead, thousands reported injured. Unbelievable. Israel is suspected to be behind the attack. These pagers were recently distributed to suspected members of Hezbollah.

Not good.

For all the negatives, and risking condemnation here, it was pretty cool

It was similar to the Stuxnet virus...introduced in the manufacturing stage.

[TysonLPrice]

I'm seeing their backup radios, in case the pagers go down, are exploding now....

[OptionBase1]

I'm seeing their backup radios, in case the pagers go down, are exploding now....

Reports of other types of devices exploding as well, like home solar power systems.

No, this isn't cool at all. This isn't a movie or TV show. This is real life, and undoubtedly there are people (yes, actual human beings like you, me, or your family members) who have been hurt or killed that have zero links to terrorism.

[wes4dbt]

No, this isn't cool at all. This isn't a movie or TV show. This is real life, and undoubtedly there are people (yes, actual human beings like you, me, or your family members) who have been hurt or killed that have zero links to terrorism.

I agree but it's not surprising. Israel's willingness to kill innocents has been on full display in Gaza. This is just another example.

I should add, Hamas and Hezbollah also have no problems with killing the innocent. I realize there are always innocent people killed in conflicts. The scale at which it's happening in this conflict is disturbing.

[TysonLPrice]

Reports of other types of devices exploding as well, like home solar power systems.

No, this isn't cool at all. This isn't a movie or TV show. This is real life, and undoubtedly there are people (yes, actual human beings like you, me, or your family members) who have been hurt or killed that have zero links to terrorism.

I guess I know what you mean about the "human toll" but I think you don't know what I meant. It was absolutely cool...the mechanisms, the infiltration, the intelligence, the timing, the very sophistication of it. Top of the notch execution...very cool!!!

A high precision, multi-layered, international, plan coming together "right on time"...excellent.

[wes4dbt]

A high precision, multi-layered, international, plan coming together "right on time"...excellent.

I know what you meant about the plan and execution but it's kind of like complimenting a serial killer for how good they were at it. It may be true but should it really be openly admired? I doubt in either case the victims and their families would think it was cool.

Sort of hard to separate the execution of the plan and the resulting human carnage.

Sometimes I think of these acts and the seemingly lack of consideration for innocent lives, then wonder how they justify it. But they can always find a way. I often think back to the fire bombing of Japan, we killed 100,000 people in one night. But we justify it, we were at war, it saved American lives. I tell myself there is a difference between WWII and the what's going on between Israel and their enemies. But I'm not sure.

[TysonLPrice]

I know what you meant about the plan and execution but it's kind of like complimenting a serial killer for how good they were at it. It may be true but should it really be openly admired? I doubt in either case the victims and their families would think it was cool.

Sort of hard to separate the execution of the plan and the resulting human carnage.

Sometimes I think of these acts and the seemingly lack of consideration for innocent lives, then wonder how they justify it. But they can always find a way. I often think back to the fire bombing of Japan, we killed 100,000 people in one night. But we justify it, we were at war, it saved American lives. I tell myself there is a difference between WWII and the what's going on between Israel and their enemies. But I'm not sure.

I see what you mean but I can separate the mechanics from the results and recognize them both. Saying the obvious in polite company can get you "condemned" and I knew I was risking that.-

I wonder if I had posted "I have to admire the mechanics of the operation" instead of "I think it was cool" the replies would have been different.

[wes4dbt]

I wonder if I had posted "I have to admire the mechanics of the operation" instead of "I think it was cool" the replies would have been different.

Probably. It struck me that it showed the sophistication of Israel's intelligence gathering services. Several of their strikes recently makes it clear they have knowledge of Hezbollah plans at a very high level.

In reality, I find it morally unjustifiable to set off thousands of bombs with no certainty of who they are going to harm. Lebanon is not at war with Israel.

[TysonLPrice]

Probably. It struck me that it showed the sophistication of Israel's intelligence gathering services. Several of their strikes recently makes it clear they have knowledge of Hezbollah plans at a very high level.

In reality, I find it morally unjustifiable to set off thousands of bombs with no certainty of who they are going to harm. Lebanon is not at war with Israel.

I haven't seen it asked yet, that I have read, but what if one was on a plane in flight?