Israel?

[wes4dbt]

There's always a predicate in this region. You can also view it as going right back to the 19th century when neither state existed and you can view it as either finished in 48 or ongoing today.

This is very common throughout the world. Just depends how far back you want to go. There is still plenty of other current conflicts going on base on this type of reasoning. But this conflict just continues, most come to an end.

But I do feel as long as Israel has no fear because of the support it's given, they'll continue to push their expansion agenda. I don't see any meaningful negotiations happening. Just more years of the same.

[FunkyDexter]

as long as Israel has no fear because of the support it's given, they'll continue to push their expansion agenda

You're probably right. I think Israel 50 years ago couldn't have continued to exist without Western backing as its neighbours would have wiped it out but I'm not sure that continues to be true. Recent events seem to show that it's neighbours aren't really interested in that any more. Mind you, I'd hate to cut off the aid and then find out I was wrong about that. It feels like perhaps the funding should be steadily reduced going forward rather than simply cut off. (This is putting aside the effects of using it as diplomatic pressure).

[TysonLPrice]

Along the lines of FOX news fomenting division over Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestinian, there is another twist now. It is very well known a large part pf the republican base are FOX viewers and they pay close attention to that network. FOX has been going full steam against the protests on college campuses, pitting sides against each other, blaming Biden, and calling for the College Presidents to resign.

Well, a group of them are going to Columbia University today to do more of the same. Mike Johnson is leading them. Anything for a headline...

Edit:

I have to correct myself a bit...the protests are expanding. Reminds me of the sixties.

If you are interested here is one account:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...gaza-protests/

[FunkyDexter]

The Pro Palestine protests over here have been... nuanced. The overwhelming majority of people attending have been great and there have actually been a load of Jews in attendance. It's been great. But there is a small hard core of really nasty anti-Semites attached to the Pro Palestinian movement who can be really aggressive and it doesn't feel like they're getting dealt with properly. I appreciate it's often worse to police it in the moment but the police should be able to identify these individuals and should be following up with fines and deterrents.

Mind you, if I don't like the guys mentioned above, the sight of the likes of Tommy Robinson and the EDF suddenly turning up at Pro Israel marches was particularly grotesque. They've spent years demonising Jews and suddenly they feel the need to "defend the peaceful Jewish Protestors from the evil Muslims". Kiss my arse! They just think that Jews are slightly less brown than Muslims.

[TysonLPrice]

I don't think it went quite the way Mike Johnson planned:

“I am here today joining my colleagues and calling on President Shafik to resign if she could not immediately bring order to this chaos,” Johnson said. “As speaker of the House, I’m committed today that the Congress will not be silent as Jewish students are expected to run for their lives and stay home from their classes hiding in fear.”

A crowd of students, swelling as Johnson and his colleagues began speaking, intermittently laughed and yelled that they couldn’t hear the congressman or his colleagues. The students booed the speaker, chanted in support of Palestine, including “Free Palestine,” “Stop the genocide” and “From the river to the sea,” a phrase that some say constitutes antisemitic speech.

“Get off our campus!” one student yelled. “Go back to Louisiana, Mike!” someone shouted.

“Enjoy your free speech,” Johnson rejoined, sounding uncharacteristically irritated.

As Johnson wrapped up, the students renewed their boos and began to chant, “Mike, you suck!”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...gaza-protests/

This reminds me a lot of the Sixties.

[FunkyDexter]

Oh that sounds like it went exactly the way he planned. Never pass up a chance to play the victim.

[TysonLPrice]

Oh that sounds like it went exactly the way he planned. Never pass up a chance to play the victim.

If you watched you could tell that it was nothing like he wanted. He got angry and the other representatives were just squirming. Nobody cold hear what he was saying because of "weak" microphones and the jeering. Trump has turned victimhood into an art. Mike Johnson is just not as openly sleazy as Trump.

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah, I've seen the footage since and he definitely wasn't enjoying it. I can't believe they weren't expecting that response though

[TysonLPrice]

Yeah, I've seen the footage since and he definitely wasn't enjoying it. I can't believe they weren't expecting that response though

I don't think you are that tuned to US polictical nuances, and I wouldn't expect that. They stepped outside their FOX news echo chamber and got a taste of what people think.

[FunkyDexter]

They stepped outside their FOX news echo chamber

Don't get me wrong, I know the average Joe Blows tend to live in echo chambers but the Speaker of the House? Even if he personally lives in an echo chamber, he's surrounded by a coterie of staff who's job is to stay on top of the political mood.

[TysonLPrice]

Don't get me wrong, I know the average Joe Blows tend to live in echo chambers but the Speaker of the House? Even if he personally lives in an echo chamber, he's surrounded by a coterie of staff who's job is to stay on top of the political mood.

And I have to say again "I don't think you are that tuned to US polictical nuances, and I wouldn't expect that.". I'm not being snarky...

Ron Johnson is on the very far right, although he has been forced into the center lately. He was one of the chief supporters of Trump's attempt to usurp the election. The "coterie of staff who's job is to stay on top of the political mood" consists lately of Trump and Marjorie Taylor Green. On several occasions lately it is obvious Trump is dictating policy. Now I will give you Trump is on top of the mood to close to half of the people. Trump is the one really running the republican party now.

But I guess you are right about him not living in an echo chamber, he reports directly to Trump. He was just down in Florida kissing Trump's ring a few weeks ago. Trump got Green to back off the attempt to oust him.

[wes4dbt]

Israel's cabinet voted to shut down Al Jazeera. Never a good sign when a government takes such strong measures to control the news.

Hope the new peace talks accomplish something positive.

[TysonLPrice]

Israel's cabinet voted to shut down Al Jazeera. Never a good sign when a government takes such strong measures to control the news.

Hope the new peace talks accomplish something positive.

Israel's cabinet voted to shut down Al Jazeera. Never a good sign when a government takes such strong measures to control the news.

Hope the new peace talks accomplish something positive.

My daily news tab is:

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/
https://www.spiegel.de/international/
https://www.bbc.com/news
https://www.npr.org/sections/news/
https://news.google.com/home?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en
https://www.theguardian.com/us
https://www.washingtonpost.com/

And:

https://www.aljazeera.com/

I find it as "fair and balanced" as the others.

[wes4dbt]

Well, Israel's cabinet doesn't have any control over those news outlets. They'd shut them down if they could.

[TysonLPrice]

Well, Israel's cabinet doesn't have any control over those news outlets. They'd shut them down if they could.

I think the reason is Aljazeera has people on the ground. I don't think Israel allows the others in unrestricted.

[wes4dbt]

Another "mistake" by the Israeli military. https://www.npr.org/2024/05/27/nx-s1...irstrike-hamas

Other than the usual "shame on you" I really don't think Israel will be held accountable or even what that would look like. I feel bad for the people in Gaza. Even the floating pier is having trouble.

Justifying killing all these innocents by claiming they are going to irradicate Hamas is an absurdity. I'd be interested to know what percentage of the Israeli people support this tactic. Obviously a lot, there hasn't been any recent major push back against it from the people. Some protests but definitely not major.

Radical Israeli settlers have expanded their attacks on aid trucks passing through the West Bank this month, blocking food from reaching Gaza as humanitarian groups warn that the enclave is sinking deeper into famine.

Groups of settler youth are tailing relief convoys, setting up checkpoints and interrogating drivers. In some cases, far-right attackers have ransacked and burned trucks and beaten Palestinian drivers, leaving at least two hospitalized.

I realize this doesn't represent the majority. But it does show the anger and hatred your dealing with. This region really does show that "an eye for an eye" leaves you with two blind people.

[sapator]

As you can see I'm not writing much about and keep my distance but it amazes me that some people just woke up on what is happening in the region on both sides. I wouldn't go so much to think what will Hamas would have done if they are given the weapons that Israel possess nor if Israel would gladly nuke them if other countries "allowed" it but what is happening in the region is not this year surprise. Also this is all a farce on US side as Israel got a lot of them by the balls now and ever and ever and ever so they tend to look the other way.... Or Biden is taken any real measures against Israel that I'm not aware off?... I said Biden...Apologies, the deep state that does not exist.

[Shaggy Hiker]

The politics in the US on this subject are certainly convoluted, and changing. When the alignments change in the US is when things start getting confused. There isn't any deep state to this, it's actually quite shallow. Everybody is trying to figure out whether they get more votes than they lose by taking any particular position. Since support for Israel doesn't break along typical left/right divides, neither side is quite clear what to do.

[sapator]

Correct.
When the deep state decides it will alert Biden to move along.
The situation is that US is on Israel side , Israel starts acting crazy, US get embarrassed, the deep state does not give a donkeys frigidaire about lost lives, hence, no blanket, they push Biden to state that he maybe someday whatever stop weapon provision on Israel if they behave, they will not but still, no blanket.

[TysonLPrice]

I know that "Deep Throat" was real. There are two examples off the top of my head:

1. A 1972 landmark American pornographic film:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Throat_(film)

2. The move "All the President's Men" had the character "Deep Throat" who said "Follow the money".

And trying to beat SH to the pun: No one will "swallow" that post.

[Elroy]

I'm not particularly religious, and I'm certainly not someone who thinks that "Jews are God's chosen people".

Having said that, it's puzzling to me why Egypt (or possibly another Arab country) doesn't open their borders to the Palestinians. They're clearly a persecuted people.

Sure, we can go back to WWII, and also to 1948 when Israel was formed, taking over Palestine and bull-dozing Palestinian cities, and re-debate all those issues. However, that does little to solve the problems of the day.

To just resettle them all in some other Arab country (or countries) just seems like a viable solution. And it's certainly not an issue of money, as several Arab countries have the highest worldwide per-capita income, as well as trillions of dollars of reserves.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Some do have lots of money, but not Egypt or Jordan, the two most reasonable destinations. If they take in the Palestinians, then they have a perpetual, aggrieved, refugee population. There aren't many people who get kicked out of their home and just say, "well, that's over and done with. On to the next thing." Also, assimilating a few million people into a relatively small country, especially when those people are showing up all at once with nothing but the clothes on their backs, would be pretty tough for most countries. Sure, some of the rich gulf states could do something financially, but most of the rich states are small. For example, the UAE (not all of which are rich) would be adding about 20% of their population. Saudi Arabia would be better able to absorb the number from a numerical standpoint, but they already have a pretty dubious reputation for handling immigrant workers, let alone absorbing a whole population. Egypt has the size, but not the money. Jordan has neither the size nor the money. Lebanon...has nothing going for it at all.

[TysonLPrice]

Some do have lots of money, but not Egypt or Jordan, the two most reasonable destinations. If they take in the Palestinians, then they have a perpetual, aggrieved, refugee population. There aren't many people who get kicked out of their home and just say, "well, that's over and done with. On to the next thing." Also, assimilating a few million people into a relatively small country, especially when those people are showing up all at once with nothing but the clothes on their backs, would be pretty tough for most countries. Sure, some of the rich gulf states could do something financially, but most of the rich states are small. For example, the UAE (not all of which are rich) would be adding about 20% of their population. Saudi Arabia would be better able to absorb the number from a numerical standpoint, but they already have a pretty dubious reputation for handling immigrant workers, let alone absorbing a whole population. Egypt has the size, but not the money. Jordan has neither the size nor the money. Lebanon...has nothing going for it at all.

So I guess Miami is out of the question too

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yeah, I wouldn't suggest sending them to ANY third world country.

[FunkyDexter]

So I guess Miami is out of the question too

You joke (and I sniggered) but there were serious suggestions to home displaced Jews in Central Africa instead of the Levante post WW2. Modern Palestine and Modern Israel being in the same place has a lot more to do with history, cultural concerns and a general sense of "our land" than any practical considerations.

it's puzzling to me why Egypt (or possibly another Arab country) doesn't open their borders to the Palestinians.

Everything Shaggy said plus a fear of importing a terrorism problem. A mass migration of Palestinians would almost certainly include a substantial number of Hamas and terrorists have a nasty tendency to launch attacks where they're at (because it's easy) rather than in the homeland of their targets (which is hard). Worse, the likes of Hamas might look at any host country as the enemy if they were seen to be cooperating with Israel. Also Hamas are Sunni so any Shia (or even secular) neighbour is likely to find themselves on the target list. It's much easier to bottle them up in Gaza where they're an Israeli problem. (N.b. I'm absolutely NOT advocating for this position, just describing Real Politique behind it)

[wes4dbt]

Wow this is a high price for the Palestinians to pay. https://apnews.com/article/israel-pa...250cd4a8ed4dbf

How many of them were Hamas, who knows. Certainly not the children.

I'm sure the families of the hostages think it was justified and I think a large segment of the Israeli population feel it was justified. But from the outside looking at those number of deaths makes me disappointed in humans.

I know the US killed a massive amount of civilians in WWII. But this feels different.

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah, that was pretty appalling. When it was first reported all I heard was that they'd rescued 4 hostages in a raid and I thought "oh, that's good" than I started hearing about the Hamas casualties. The IDF are citing less than a hundred but their numbers aren't really credible at this point. And even 99 would still be a horrible rate.

[wes4dbt]

Yeah, that was pretty appalling. When it was first reported all I heard was that they'd rescued 4 hostages in a raid and I thought "oh, that's good" than I started hearing about the Hamas casualties. The IDF are citing less than a hundred but their numbers aren't really credible at this point. And even 99 would still be a horrible rate.

Yeah, it's hard to have much confidence in the numbers from the various sources. But bombing civilian populations because there may be some enemy mixed in is going to result in high numbers of civilian casualties.

It's sort of strange here in the US. The politician are trying to figure out how to handle this situation. Which stance (Israeli/Palestinian) will help them in the election.

Now the news is framing it that the holdup for peace is because Hamas wont except the peace agreement. I don't know the details of the agreement so I have no idea if they are being unreasonable or not.

[FunkyDexter]

I realise as I read my last post back that I miss spoke (or miss typed) badly. I said Hamas casualties when I meant Palestinian casualties, If the casualties were Hamas I wouldn't have a problem with it.

bombing civilian populations because there may be some enemy mixed in is going to result in high numbers of civilian casualties

I accept that a certain number of innocent casualties is probably in any urban combat but it's off the charts in this one. I'm not sure I'd portray the IDF as deliberately killing civilians (though there are definitely exceptions to that) but they sure as hell don't seem to give a damn about how many bystanders they kill.

Now the news is framing it that the holdup for peace is because Hamas wont except the peace agreement.

Over here we're getting the exact opposite. The latest narrative has been that Biden agreed a deal with Netanyahu that he then took to Hamas. Hamas agreed to it and Netanyahu backed out. I suspect the truth is somewhere between the two and both sides are still making demands that cross each other's red lines.

[wes4dbt]

I realise as I read my last post back that I miss spoke (or miss typed) badly. I said Hamas casualties when I meant Palestinian casualties, If the casualties were Hamas I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Yeah, I noticed that and it struck me as a little strange. But I wasn't in the mood to start a debate about it. Not that we are prone to do that.

[FunkyDexter]

Brain fart. It happens at my age

[dilettante]

The problem is deeper than people seem to believe, or at least admit.

Poland just SHOCKED the world, and NATO and EU globalists are furious

[FunkyDexter]

I'm not sure I see the relevance to a thread on Israel and Palestine but hey ho.

The last round of EU elections didn't go well for the EU but this video is really just hyperbole (and nothing at all to do with NATO which is an entirely separate body). All the European nations have a habit of sending anti EU candidates to be EU MPs mainly because there's very low engagement from the populations at large. The only people who get enthused about the EU elections are those that are strongly anti but that doesn't make them a majority, they're just the only people who can be bothered to vote. This is highly unlikely to translate to anyone leaving. Poland, in particular, is very strongly pro EU and has benefitted hugely since it joined - arguably more than any other member. I was living with a Polish girl a couple of years ago and have several Polish friends - the support is universal among them.

Hell, even the UK is looking increasingly like it might rejoin at some point in the future. The two major parties still aren't talking about it because it's a pretty toxic subject but it's widely recognised that leaving was a disaster and every poll now shows that support to rejoin outstrips the desire to carry on as we are. The EU's not going anywhere.

I do think NATO is under threat if Trump wins the next presidency but I'm not convinced American withdrawal would actually spell the end of the alliance. Whether it would simply continue without the US or whether it would be replaced with a new treaty I'm not sure but, in Military terms, European sentiment is more unified in the wake of the Russian attack on Ukraine than it has been for decades. Previously neutral nations are joining or seeking to join so I don't see the European arm of the alliance going anywhere - no matter what the Pro Putin Twitterati would like.

Other than that, I'm still waiting for anyone to give me a definition for "Globalist" that wouldn't, in the past, have been ascribed to the Illuminati, the New World Order, Lizard People or Jews. It's a term without meaning and really nothing more than a bogeyman. And as for the "Ukrainianization of Poland"... I mean, just, what?

[TysonLPrice]

I'm not sure I see the relevance to a thread on Israel and Palestine but hey ho.

The last round of EU elections didn't go well for the EU but this video is really just hyperbole (and nothing at all to do with NATO which is an entirely separate body). All the European nations have a habit of sending anti EU candidates to be EU MPs mainly because there's very low engagement from the populations at large. The only people who get enthused about the EU are those that are strongly anti but that doesn't make them a majority, they're just the only people who can be bothered to vote. This is highly unlikely to translate to anyone leaving. Poland, in particular, is very strongly pro EU and has benefitted hugely since it joined - arguably more than any other member. I was living with a Polish girl a couple of years ago and have several Polish friends - the support is universal among them.

Hell, even the UK is looking increasingly like it might rejoin at some point in the future. The two major parties still aren't talking about it because it's a pretty toxic subject but it's widely recognised that leaving was a disaster and every poll now shows that support to rejoin outstrips the desire to carry on as we are. The EU's not going anywhere.

I do think NATO is under threat if Trump wins the next presidency but I'm not convinced American withdrawal would actually spell the end of the alliance. Whether it would simply continue without the US or whether it would be replaced with a new treaty I'm not sure but, in Military terms, European sentiment is more unified in the wake of the Russian attack on Ukraine than it has been for decades. Previously neutral nations are joining or seeking to join so I don't see the European arm of the alliance going anywhere - no matter what the Pro Putin Twitterati would like.

Other than that, I'm still waiting for anyone to give me a definition for "Globalist" that wouldn't, in the past, have been ascribed to the Illuminati, the New World Order, Lizard People or Jews. It's a term without meaning and really nothing more than a bogeyman. And as for the "Ukrainianization of Poland"... I mean, just, what?

I'm surprised you even bothered to look at it...given the history of what he posts links to.

[wes4dbt]

Considering the tensions that the West Bank Israeli expansions has caused over the decades, it's seems like a bad time for such a large (or any) expansion plan. https://apnews.com/a-look-at-how-set...da79dcbd0a0000

Makes me question if Israel wants peace.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Large parts of Israel probably wants peace, but significant parts of the current government most definitely do NOT want peace.

[wes4dbt]

Large parts of Israel probably wants peace, but significant parts of the current government most definitely do NOT want peace.

That may be true. I haven't seen any information on how much of the Israeli population is for or against the government actions. Have you?

[Shaggy Hiker]

No, but to be fair, I haven't looked, or even considered trying to look. I feel that everything that is happening comes down to Netanyahu trying to cling to power. He can't lose any part of his coalition, which means the fringe parties can steer him whichever way they like, and they are. Therefore, the direction of Israel, until the government falls, is being driven by a small minority. What portion of Israel doesn't want this situation almost doesn't matter.

[wes4dbt]

Therefore, the direction of Israel, until the government falls, is being driven by a small minority. What portion of Israel doesn't want this situation almost doesn't matter.

How can it not matter. Netanyahu only has the power that the people of Israel give him. The problems in the West bank and Gaza has been going on for many many years and through many elections.

But it would be interesting to know how the majority of Israeli's feel about the current actions. It's hard to guess, they live in a completely different environment than we do. Attacks on there country are a part of daily life.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Until the government falls, he's the leader as the head of the government. I feel that the people of Israel have definitely moved in a different direction since he was last elected, as it seems very unlikely that they would elect him again, at this point. If Israel goes into Lebanon, remains in Gaza, decides to use mushrooms en masse, is largely up to a government that would be very unlikely to remain in power if they were to face an election today. Therefore, the government doesn't reflect the will of the people, currently, and the will of the people is not directing Israel, therefore, they are somewhat irrelevant...until the election, whenever that is.