Israel?

[Shaggy Hiker]

One sentence of that is technically correct, but may not read right: I'm suggesting that Hamas may have staged their attack partly to lure Israel into attacking them.

[wes4dbt]

Hamas at this point will be thoroughly interspersed with the general populace and indistinguishable from them

If this is true then Israel's goal of wiping out Hamas isn't possible without wiping out everyone in Gaza. Even then some would have fled to other countries. It's just a mess. Brings back memories of Vietnam. Actually the problem of knowing who is the enemy also reminds me of Afghanistan and Iraq.

[TysonLPrice]

If this is true then Israel's goal of wiping out Hamas isn't possible without wiping out everyone in Gaza. Even then some would have fled to other countries. It's just a mess. Brings back memories of Vietnam. Actually the problem of knowing who is the enemy also reminds me of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Reminds me of all those years in the office

[FunkyDexter]

If this is true then Israel's goal of wiping out Hamas isn't possible without wiping out everyone in Gaza

I suspect that that is the tragic truth. The war on terror was the best rallying call Islamic extremists ever had and this is probably going to replace that.

I know the situations are wildly different but the only analogue I can speak to is the situation in Northern Ireland. That only came to an end (sort of) when reasonable leaders on both sides reached out to each other, brokered by a British Government who'd stepped away from the hard line rhetoric. (I say sort of because there are still divisions but they're not even close to what they were in the 70s and 80s). But I feel like the divisions in the Middle East run MUCH deeper and I'm not sure there are really any figure heads who would survive being seen to call for peace.

[FunkyDexter]

So the IDF bombed a refugee camp, killing some 80 civilians and justified it because they managed to kill one Hamas commander and it's not their fault that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. This is awful.

I did hear one commentator (James O'Brien) make a good point: If the Hamas commander had been hiding in a camp full of Israeli's would the IDF still have felt that killing 80 "human shields" was a justifiable side effect?

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah, this all feels horribly predictable at this point.

[TysonLPrice]

FOX news is starting up their dividing America narrative again. They split people during Covid and masking. They constantly do it between democrats and republicans. Their newest is pitting pro-Palestinian" protesters against Jews. That the protesters are actually pro Hamas. They are doing it on student campus protests and American cities. They are going to hurt someone this time.

[wes4dbt]

FOX news is starting up their dividing America narrative again. They split people during Covid and masking. They constantly do it between democrats and republicans. Their newest is pitting pro-Palestinian" protesters against Jews. That the protesters are actually pro Hamas. They are doing it on student campus protests and American cities. They are going to hurt someone this time.

This time? Their mask and vaccine misinformation guests/reporting cost many lives.

But like most news media, their main goal isn't to inform viewers with the facts, it's to grow their viewership.

When it comes to the Israel/Palestine problem my guess is VERY few Americans have much knowledge of how they got to this current situation. I don't have a clear picture, but I know it started long before Oct. 7th. So it makes it very easy for them to shape the story in a way that draws the most viewers.

[TysonLPrice]

This time? Their mask and vaccine misinformation guests/reporting cost many lives.

Agreed...I've said that many times. This time it seems so egregious, so heartless

[dilettante]

There's no chamber like an echo chamber. That crap has long been debunked now.

[wes4dbt]

And that's where y'all lose me.

I will agree that FOX is trying to divide people by cherry picking some of the pro-Palestinian protests but anyone who still believes any of the crap that the corporate media put out on COVID is either a liar or just delusional.

Edit - I mean why even bring COVID up? Was the thread was too civil for you?

I brought it up as another example of how lies and misinformation can be harmful, even leading to the lose of life. I was being civil but can't say that about you. Calling me a liar or delusional was way out of line. I'd also say you were calling several other members the same thing because I can tell from from their previous posts that they don't agree that masks and vaccines have been debunked, as Dil claims.

[TysonLPrice]

And that's where y'all lose me.

I will agree that FOX is trying to divide people by cherry picking some of the pro-Palestinian protests but anyone who still believes any of the crap that the corporate media put out on COVID is either a liar or just delusional.

Edit - I mean why even bring COVID up? Was the thread was too civil for you?

It was civil until you posted that tripe.

[sapator]

Ye I personally wouldn't say it that way, I would just said: The type of person that says: "Hmmm...the sign on the door says, "AIRLOCK". I wonder what's inside."

https://www.wfrp.de/hosted/flw/en/flw0250.html

[Shaggy Hiker]

Air...duh!

[TysonLPrice]

“Die, why that’s the last thing I’ll do”: Groucho Marx.

https://www.thehistorycorner.org/art...s-from-history

[wes4dbt]

Well, a daily "pause" is something positive, I guess. Not sure where these people have to go or how they will survive when they get there.

I understand Israel filling compelled to respond after Oct. 7th. Just don't see what "wiping out Hamas" will achieve, especially when so many innocents are killed during the process. Even if Israel destroys Hamas they've increased the anger against them from the Palestinians and others, it wont be long before another group step up to take the place of Hamas. so, the cycle continues.

It's a mess and I certainly don't have an answer to the problem. But I doubt destroying Hamas changes things for the better, in the long run.

[Shaggy Hiker]

If they don't have a viable plan for peace afterwards, Hamas will replace Hamas. A new generation will take up the same banner.

[wes4dbt]

If they don't have a viable plan for peace afterwards, Hamas will replace Hamas. A new generation will take up the same banner.

That's what I'm saying. I don't think "peace" is even a consideration in that region. There's been a few weak efforts in the last 50yrs but obviously to no effect.

[sapator]

This might tell something about the world we live in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_...ition_only.svg

[TysonLPrice]

This might tell something about the world we live in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_...ition_only.svg

I didn't realize that but it makes sense. The US was the first to recognize Israel and will be the last to recognize the people thrown out to set up the new Israeli nation.

[FunkyDexter]

Well, a daily "pause" is something positive, I guess.

I agree. There's a lot of argument over here at the moment over whether we should argue for a "humanitarian pause" or a "ceasefire". To me that's a distinction without meaning. Anything that stops the immediate killing and is a potential catalyst for talks is a win as far as I'm concerned.

That said, while I think we may be able to apply diplomatic pressure sufficient to get Israel to pause, I'm extremely sceptical that we could affect Hamas's actions. Let's not forget they're still holding hostages and are still launching (ineffectual due to the iron dome) rockets.

This might tell something about the world we live in

Yeah, that was quite surprising. I've always thought that the UK recognised Palestine and we've long championed a two state solution. Hard to see how you can do that when you don't recognise one of the states.

[sapator]

The gray left or Russia and below Ukraine is "Transnistria"
That is the dream country of LGBT and friends !

[sapator]

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel...a/10188153002/

[NTShpikho]

what the world needs is libertarianism, because wars and oppression are powered by fear, taxation, usury and artificial inflation.

[FunkyDexter]

I'm going to sound a cautious note of optimism. The hostage/prisoner exchanges seem to be going well and the ceasefire has held for several days now. I really hope this can grow into a more lasting peace. Israel is saying that they'll recommence after the hostages are all released but hopefully the wider community, particularly the USA (because you've got clout) can apply some soft diplomatic pressure to turn that around.

[TysonLPrice]

I'm going to sound a cautious note of optimism. The hostage/prisoner exchanges seem to be going well and the ceasefire has held for several days now. I really hope this can grow into a more lasting peace. Israel is saying that they'll recommence after the hostages are all released but hopefully the wider community, particularly the USA (because you've got clout) can apply some soft diplomatic pressure to turn that around.

Maybe between global commendation and feeling like they got their "pound of flesh" Israel is pushing on the brake. Let's see what kind of hate grows out of that rubble.

[Shaggy Hiker]

On the other side, if Israel puts a full stop on this, the internal outrage at government failures will grow louder. With a leader so keen on self preservation as Bibi is, I'm not sure that he sees peace as being in his best interest.

[wes4dbt]

Maybe with other countries getting involved there is a very very slim chance of some type of peace. But I don't see it, this pause is happening because both sides feel they're benefitting. I don't see either side looking for peace.

Just to much deep and long occurring hate.

[Shaggy Hiker]

With a little political expediency mixed in for flavor.

[FunkyDexter]

global commendation

I think you mean condemnation, not commendation. They're pretty much the exact opposite in this scenario.

On the other side, if Israel puts a full stop on this, the internal outrage at government failures will grow louder. With a leader so keen on self preservation as Bibi is, I'm not sure that he sees peace as being in his best interest.

You're probably right but I hope you're wrong. Bibi is already facing a domestic backlash for the initial security failings and I get the impression that there's an increasing number of Israeli who are finding the response distasteful. I've seen quite a few interview including victims families where they express that it's starting to feel like revenge rather than a attempt to recover the hostages. I can see a path where he could spin an "I negotiated and recovered the hostages" line and save face that way.

[Shaggy Hiker]

He could save SOME face, but he's lost so much already, especially as reports that they ignored intelligence information about the pending attack are surfacing.

[FunkyDexter]

Well, the peace didn't last and we're back to exterminating Palestinians. I don't see an end to this.

[wes4dbt]

I am wondering how long the world will stay on the side lines while Israel bombs the hell out of Gaza. Using the Hamas attack to justify killing innocents can't go on forever. It has went on to long already.

[TysonLPrice]

I am wondering how long the world will stay on the side lines while Israel bombs the hell out of Gaza. Using the Hamas attack to justify killing innocents can't go on forever. It has went on to long already.

It looks like they are going into South Gaza soon.

[wes4dbt]

Yeah, Israel is telling people in the south to evacuate but I'm not sure where they are suppose to go?

[FunkyDexter]

The app they've released seems really ridiculous to me. It basically pops up messages telling Palestinians where they're not going to be safe. What it doesn't do is tell them where they will be safe.

At this point Israel's actions have met the definition for Ethnic Cleansing. Whether they'll meet the definition for Genocide remains to be seen but it sure seems headed in that direction.

Nothing should be used to distract or dismiss the actions of Hamas but this isn't helping.

[TysonLPrice]

The app they've released seems really ridiculous to me. It basically pops up messages telling Palestinians where they're not going to be safe. What it doesn't do is tell them where they will be safe.

At this point Israel's actions have met the definition for Ethnic Cleansing. Whether they'll meet the definition for Genocide remains to be seen but it sure seems headed in that direction.

Nothing should be used to distract or dismiss the actions of Hamas but this isn't helping.

And FOX news is deliberately pitting sides against each other. To me the way they weaponize their coverage to pit Americans against Americans is the equivalent to yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

[techgnome]

And FOX news is deliberately pitting sides against each other. To me the way they weaponize their coverage to pit Americans against Americans is the equivalent to yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

They've been doing that for years... even before TRump ... a couple decades at least... They've been doing it for so long, most people expect it.


-tg

[wes4dbt]

They've been doing that for years... even before TRump ... a couple decades at least... They've been doing it for so long, most people expect it.


-tg

I'd say, not only expect it, it's what they want. That's how Fox News has grown to the most watched news network.

[TysonLPrice]

I'd say, not only expect it, it's what they want. That's how Fox News has grown to the most watched news network.

Being dedicated to Trump helps...