Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

[FunkyDexter]

I'm going to respond to a few folks so I'll put names at the start of quotes for clarity.

Tyson: He was hospitalized yesterday with Covid pneumonia

I'm holding out hope for him. Most people recover even after hospitalisation and he's in the hands of experts. They've learned a lot over the last couple of years.

DD: if you look at the US, hospitals were almost never overwhelmed though they came close

I'm not sure whether you meant to put "almost never" there because it substantially undermines your argument. For that reason I'm going to respond as if you'd basically asserted that hospitals came close to being overwhelmed (just trying to avoid putting words in your mouth). I think you can only assert that if your definition of "overwhelmed" is the inability of hospitals to put covid patients in beds but it's not just about that, it's about the ability to carry out healthcare in general and they have definitely been overwhelmed in that regard. My mother has had two operations postponed due to covid pressure and by father has had one. They weren't life or death matters but it has meant that my father had to live with extreme discomfort for a couple months longer than he would normally have had to. My next door neighbour had chronic respiratory issues and had her regular treatment pushed back. She died of complications in June and, although I can't be sure that it's attributable to that delayed treatment I'm pretty sure it didn't help. The extra pressure on the health service is real.

DD: This is exaggeration.

It wasn't an exaggeration at all, I said it helps prevent the spread and it does. It prevents them by much higher percentages than you're quoting too with fully vaccinated people being 91% less likely to be infected according to the CDC I think some of the confusion here comes from the difference in protection from infection vs transmission. For anyone who's going to dismiss the CDC as part of the conspiracy, here's a really good analysis by FullFact, an independent fact checker.

DD: Your definition of risk is different from my definition of risk which is why these decisions should be made on an individual basis

I think we're essentially into the libertarian debate here and, for me, the Rubicon is whether your choice (or your definition of risk) impacts me. In this case it does and potentially lethally so. For that reason I don't think your individualism trumps the good of society in this particular instance.

DD: I think that more recently it has famously been against Joe Rogan

I think I agree with you here. I think there was some pretty disingenuous rhetoric on both sides (Rogan often implied a much greater efficacy for some of the alternative treatments than they merited, even if he didn't outright state it) but I agree that some sections of the media took some of his statements and exaggerated them way beyond anything he implied and certainly beyond anything he explicitly said.

But seriously, we're not arguing whether Joe Rogan was treated unfairly for touting some unproven treatments. What's being proposed in this thread is that the virus was deliberately created and released in order to make some (as yet unidentified) group of billionaires extra cash. That this group of millionaires was willing to kill millions of people for that extra cash. That the media is in on this plan and running interference for it. That the Chinese government didn't know about it even though it took place in one of their labs. That it's somehow connected to Bill Gates. That it's somehow connected to the Feminist Agenda and the Gay Agenda (it strayed into some particularly hateful territory there). These are the claims that are explicitly being made in this thread. If that stuff's not worth of dismissal then what is?

Dil: Sure feels like a tussle between "try to be part of the solution" and "screw you, and your little dog too."

I'm 100% with you there.

Eduardo: I know. I wasn't talking about you.

I didn't think you were talking about me. But you did bring up Bill Gates and then later say that anyone who brought up Bill Gates should be immediately disregarded. What obvious conclusion do you think we should draw from that?

[TysonLPrice]

I don't have Covid, a friend of mine does. He is an anti-vaccine person and the last word I got, yesterday, is he is in the hospital and can only mouth words. He is not allowed visitors so his son is keeping us informed.

[FunkyDexter]

I don't have Covid, a friend of mine does

Yeah, I know, you mentioned it a few pages back. I was just sending him (and you) my best regards. I guess you're feeling pretty tense right now.

[TysonLPrice]

Yeah, I know, you mentioned it a few pages back. I was just sending him (and you) my best regards. I guess you're feeling pretty tense right now.

I've seen so many of the clips of a guy in his sixties that can barely breath telling people to get vaccinated and I can super impose his face over it. What breaks my heart is thinking of him beseeching medical staff for a vaccination and them saying "it is too late". He was proud of not getting one to start with.

[TysonLPrice]

Fox news is calling the new variant the "Omni cold". I still maintain they have needlessly killed hundreds of thousands of people, along with Trump, with their minimalization of the pandemic from the start. There are quite a few posters here that are also guilty of the "minimalization of the pandemic". I wonder if they are part of that Fox culture or fooled by it

[Eduardo-]

Fox news is calling the new variant the "Omni cold". I still maintain they have needlessly killed hundreds of thousands of people, along with Trump, with their minimalization of the pandemic from the start. There are quite a few posters here that are also guilty of the "minimalization of the pandemic". I wonder if they are part of that Fox culture or fooled by it

I believe quite the opposite: that the media that made everyone fall on fear and panic, killed more people and made mode harm.

[TysonLPrice]

I believe quite the opposite: that the media that made everyone fall on fear and panic, killed more people and made mode harm.

Could you explain that? Why/how did more people die from fear and panic than from not taking precautions and not getting vaccinated?

[FunkyDexter]

I hope he pulls through. The thing to hang on to is that, even at the hospitalisation stage, most people do still recover. He's in a dangerous situation, for sure, but hope isn't lost yet.

[Eduardo-]

Could you explain that? Why/how did more people die from fear and panic than from not taking precautions and not getting vaccinated?

Taking precautions is good, because there is a real danger, being vaccinated may be good, but shouldn't be a mandate or a coercion.

About the effects of panic, it is well known that it lowers your defenses (and many other things).

[TysonLPrice]

Taking precautions is good, because there is a real danger, being vaccinated may be good, but shouldn't be a mandate or a coercion.

About the effects of panic, it is well known that it lowers your defenses (and many other things).

I seriously doubt panic needlessly killed hundreds of thousands of people like the minimalization of the pandemic by Fox and Trump from the start. I don't think you can back that up.


Unless they listened to Trump and injected bleach...

[Eduardo-]

I seriously doubt panic needlessly killed hundreds of thousands of people like the minimalization of the pandemic by Fox and Trump from the start. I don't think you can back that up.

I see. People don't understand how destructive panic is.

[FunkyDexter]

Well, give us an example. Who do you think panic in relation to the virus has killed? Can you come up with 5 million such cases? Because that's how many Covid has currently killed.

[Eduardo-]

Well, give us an example. Who do you think panic in relation to the virus has killed? Can you come up with 5 million such cases? Because that's how many Covid has currently killed.

I think most of the cases died because they had fear. But of course that's an interpretation of how life works (that's something general, not just covid).

[Eduardo-]

An example... I can't assure anything (about the following case), but I talked before about a TV presenter that died here, he was every day infusing fear on the audience, all the quarantine doing that.
When at last the vaccines were available, he took one.
He died two days after that.

OK, another interpretation is that he was unlucky, it was random, whatever. Nobody can prove anything.

[baka]

the problem is not the vaccines.
the virus is out (nature, humans or aliens doesn't matter) and it fatal to many people. they should take it.

the problem is government and media. they are polarizing people. they take away your freedom and your own decision.

they don't say to you:

its you decision, we present you with a vaccine that you can take if you wish.
here is the "full and not censored" documents about how they made it, research and trials. its a risk and something you need to decide for yourself if its worth it.

no, what they do is hide the facts, they make shell companies that will "protect" the pharma companies if something goes wrong. they seems to be lobbying the whole thing, into monetary gain.
they use google, twitter, facebook to block people that speech against, they create panic when theres none, and tell you its ok when theres concern of your safety. its all a show.

right now the new virus tells that no vaccine helps, even so they are still dividing people, saying its the non vaccinated that are to blame, even if statistics right now point to that the fully vaccinated that are now spreading omicron. but politicians are just ignoring that fact, since they enjoy those certificates, to divide people to make you believe the error is the pandemic, not a systematic error with the economy, health care, pension etc, while you go around hating the non vaccinated, the people in power are laughing and feeling good that people are ignorant and dont understand its just theatrical.

vaccines are good, but only as long its not forced on you.
not all people are the same, some people have bad experience with authorities and when they feel threaten they will ignore facts and just go against.

this the government knows, they have sociology experts that knows how people respond, and its exactly what they wanted to happen, to create issues between people so that people are busy hating each other. its not new and they will use it again.

and more the authorities force things more people will respond, and eventually we will have terrorism in our backyard, that could be your neighborhood since childhood.

and this is all manipulation, because they want to hide the real threats of the future. the economical collapse of healthcare and pension system.

[Eduardo-]

An example...

Some time ago I heard an interesting story.

We in 1982 had a war with UK, for Malvinas islands (called Falkland islands by them).
The Argentinian warplane pilots were invited, if they wanted to leave a letter for their families, just in case they didn't return.
Some did write a letter, others didn't.
The ones that left a letter, didn't return anyone.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I see. People don't understand how destructive panic is.

Do you have the same definition of panic as we have? From your statements, if you substituted "stress" for "panic", I'd agree with you, but given my definition of panic, I don't. Using the term fear makes it sound like you DO have the same definition of the term panic. I don't agree with your assessment that everybody is fearful. I do think that there are people in the news that are fearful, but most just seem reasonably concerned. Reasonable concern is what prompts you to look both ways when crossing the street. Fear is what keeps you from getting anywhere near the street.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Some time ago I heard an interesting story.

We in 1982 had a war with UK, for Malvinas islands (called Falkland islands by them).
The Argentinian warplane pilots were invited, if they wanted to leave a letter for their families, just in case they didn't return.
Some did write a letter, others didn't.
The ones that left a letter, didn't return anyone.

That's art imitating life. One of the oldest tropes in Hollywood is that, in a very dangerous situation (war, but not JUST war), it is the person who talks about their loved ones back home that always die.

[sapator]

The problem is poverty brought by job loss on lockdown, no exercise and psychological depression. That creates more deaths than you can imagine.
I see that they are bringing back the lockdowns in Germany Austria and Holland, I sure hope they don't do that to Greece as the unvax are already in a lockdown so that would mean acceptance of failure but I don't think they will do so because that would bring the whole "unvax death traps on route 667" story down.

.....And I'm still at the office, WTH?! LEt's gooooo hoooomeeee!!!!!!

[FunkyDexter]

I think most of the cases died because they had fear

For those still doubting why I'm dismissing this stuff, ^that was clearly meant literally. It's not some linguistic failing or rhetorical device. This is literally someone saying that fear has directly killed 5 million people. It wasn't covid, it was fear. They died because they got scared. Defend that.

they don't say to you:

its you decision, we present you with a vaccine that you can take if you wish.
here is the "full and not censored" documents about how they made it, research and trials. its a risk and something you need to decide for yourself if its worth it.

The information is freely available from organisations with no commercial motive. You've just designated those sources as part of the conspiracy.

edit>

The problem is poverty brought by job loss on lockdown, no exercise and psychological depression. That creates more deaths than you can imagine.

Oh I certainly won't deny the damage that lockdowns do. They have deep economic and psychological impacts and can have impacts on physical health and fitness too. But they did not kill 5 million people, it was covid that did that.

[Eduardo-]

Do you have the same definition of panic as we have? From your statements, if you substituted "stress" for "panic", I'd agree with you, but given my definition of panic, I don't. Using the term fear makes it sound like you DO have the same definition of the term panic.

I'm not sure everybody understand the same way here either, but here lately the people started to use "panic" meaning like a strong fear, something deeper that just fear.

I don't agree with your assessment that everybody is fearful.

I didn't say that.

I do think that there are people in the news that are fearful, but most just seem reasonably concerned. Reasonable concern is what prompts you to look both ways when crossing the street. Fear is what keeps you from getting anywhere near the street.

I think they are a bit more than just reasonably concerned.
For most people fear is something normal, because they are not instructed that it is destructive.

I'll try to clear a bit more, if I can.

There are some fears that we could say they are good.
If you are in the rood of a building with no railing, the fear of not going too close to the border is good for you, because it is for preserving your life.

But if you have a fear that something bad will happen to you, for example that you are going to have an accident, you keep that negativity, and to the point that you allow it to go into your heart (deeply into your mind), you decided that something wrong will happen to you.
Do you know what will happen?
You guessed it.
That is, of course, the kind of fears I was talking as "panic".

[TysonLPrice]

I think most of the cases died because they had fear. But of course that's an interpretation of how life works (that's something general, not just covid).

Now you are over the place with non sequitur statements. I posted:

Fox news is calling the new variant the "Omni cold". I still maintain they have needlessly killed hundreds of thousands of people, along with Trump, with their minimalization of the pandemic from the start. There are quite a few posters here that are also guilty of the "minimalization of the pandemic". I wonder if they are part of that Fox culture or fooled by it

You came back with:

I believe quite the opposite: that the media that made everyone fall on fear and panic, killed more people and made mode harm.

I think you just made that up with no regard to factual content. You are saying "that the media that made everyone fall on fear and panic" killed "hundreds of thousands of people". I'm asking how you came up with that.

[Eduardo-]

For those still doubting why I'm dismissing this stuff, ^that was clearly meant literally. It's not some linguistic failing or rhetorical device. This is literally someone saying that fear has directly killed 5 million people. It wasn't covid, it was fear. They died because they got scared. Defend that.

That's why I don't usually answer to you (or even spend time reading), because you are simple a denier, you don't provide any argument/contra-arguments or nothing.

[Eduardo-]

I think you just made that up with no regard to factual content. You are saying "that the media that made everyone fall on fear and panic" killed "hundreds of thousands of people". I'm asking how you came up with that.

Fear is harmful. Period.

If people don't know that there is a virus, OK, inform them. If people feel fear, that would be normal.
But keep scaring the people every day, that is harmful.

[FunkyDexter]

Do I deny that 5 million are dead not because they caught covid but rather that they were afraid? Absolutely. That they had covid was chemically and biologically testable and they died of it. What more argument would you like me to bring?

[Eduardo-]

I will expand a bit on the subject, because it is no simple.

I'm not denying that there is a virus and that it is dangerous and can kill people, and that in fact it did.

What I'm saying is that I think that fear (in that form of profound fear, that I called "panic") is more dangerous than the virus itself.

People died of covid, but people died also of many other things, depressed, because they didn't received treatments of other diseases because hospitals were attending only covid cases, it had many consequences.
People went bankrupt, started with mental issues, etc.

But I want to explain better about fear.
There are two actions that are often confused, and they are very different.

1) Bravery.
2) Daring.

I hope I'm choosing the right English words for each one, because as I say they are often confused.

1) Bravery, courageous, valiant. It is when someone acknowledge the danger, and overcomes the fear and sees how to confront the circumstance in order to be victorious, to end well with it.

2) Daring is reckless. Someone that don't care about the danger and go ahead anyway.

Many reckless people died of covid also, I know of many that they denied that there was a virus, they didn't care. Many were infected and died.

My thinking is that people that behave like that, denying an adverse reality, they have fears also, but they go ahead anyway like if nothings happens.

You need to be sober, there is a virus that is dangerous, yes. But not to fear, or try to fear as less as possible (because getting rid of fears entirely is not so easy many times).

You do what you can do, and that's all. Wear mask, keep distance, vaccine (if that is Ok with you), but that's all you can do.
It is a balance, and there is no recipe for everybody.

That's more or less what I think.

Of course there is something else, but it is only for believers. Because God can help you to take out fears. He is Almighty and cares about the ones that ask Him for help. But as I said, that is only useful for people who believe that.

[TysonLPrice]

I will expand a bit on the subject, because it is no simple.

It is very simple...you just will not admit it. You said "I believe quite the opposite: that the media that made everyone fall on fear and panic, killed more people and made mode harm.". You are saying as many people died from fear as they did needlessly from the minimalization of the pandemic from Fox News and Trump from the start. No matter what mental gymnastics you want to preform that is what you said and won't admit now.

[sapator]

I wouldn't mind if it was Fear of the Dark

[Eduardo-]

It is very simple...you just will not admit it. You said "I believe quite the opposite: that the media that made everyone fall on fear and panic, killed more people and made mode harm.". You are saying as many people died from fear as they did needlessly from the minimalization of the pandemic from Fox News and Trump from the start. No matter what mental gymnastics you want to preform that is what you said and won't admit now.

I don't know what Fox news said because I didn't watch it.
About what Trump said, I kind of agree on many things, but I don't know everything that he said.
I think it is your fear what makes you think he was so wrong (or perhaps, also, your political preference).
I don't follow everything that the president of my country says, less I'll follow president of other countries.

And about most mass media, CNN, BBC, NYT, including Tweeter, Facebook, Google, etc. And most news channels in most countries (at least to the point I know), yes, I think they made people to fear and it was harmful.
What part is not clear of what I'm saying?

[TysonLPrice]

I've seen so many of the clips of a guy in his sixties that can barely breath telling people to get vaccinated and I can super impose his face over it. What breaks my heart is thinking of him beseeching medical staff for a vaccination and them saying "it is too late". He was proud of not getting one to start with.

I just talked to him...he speech is slow but he is complaining the hospital won't let him go home. I take that as he is much better than a couple days ago.

[wes4dbt]

What I'm saying is that I think that fear (in that form of profound fear, that I called "panic") is more dangerous than the virus itself.

Where have you seen profound fear/panic happening? I haven't noticed people in a panic. It's not hard to notice if someone is in a panic state. You think millions are dying of because profound fear/panic and it has went unnoticed? Is this another media and government cover up? I agree to much fear is unhealthy and the media plays to our fears but to state that is causing more deaths than the virus, just isn't even close to the truth.

[wes4dbt]

This statements

And about most mass media, CNN, BBC, NYT, including Tweeter, Facebook, Google, etc. And most news channels in most countries (at least to the point I know), yes, I think they made people to fear and it was harmful.

I have no problem with.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'm not sure that I have exactly the same definition for fear, but much of that is reasonable enough, as far as I'm concerned. I do think that fear can be bad, even debilitating. Fear can also cause stress, and extended stress can shorten your life. I don't think it is likely to kill directly, but it can shorten your life...and certainly make it worse.

When it comes to COVID, though, I'd say that there isn't enough fear, at least not in the US. People are acting like it doesn't exist, and plenty are dying from it. That's not an excess of concern, let alone fear.

[wes4dbt]

When it comes to COVID, though, I'd say that there isn't enough fear, at least not in the US. People are acting like it doesn't exist, and plenty are dying from it. That's not an excess of concern, let alone fear.

Yeah, it's amazing. We still have 1,200+ people dying from COVID each day but I don't see a lot attention paid to the daily lose of life. The streets are busy, stores are full, sport stadiums are full. I certainly don't hear a lot of conversation about the high number of daily deaths.

[Eduardo-]

Where have you seen profound fear/panic happening? I haven't noticed people in a panic. It's not hard to notice if someone is in a panic state. You think millions are dying of because profound fear/panic and it has went unnoticed? Is this another media and government cover up? I agree to much fear is unhealthy and the media plays to our fears but to state that is causing more deaths than the virus, just isn't even close to the truth.

I think it is a matter of words. I wouldn't find the right words in Spanish either, because there are not words to explain the kind or degree of fear. But I think I already explained well enough what I meant.

And yes, many people had this kind of "deep fear" (unfortunately) to some degree IMO.
They weren't running in panic like in a fire or a shooting. That of course was not what I meant and nobody could understand my words like that because of course make no sense.

[Eduardo-]

I'm not sure that I have exactly the same definition for fear, but much of that is reasonable enough, as far as I'm concerned. I do think that fear can be bad, even debilitating. Fear can also cause stress, and extended stress can shorten your life. I don't think it is likely to kill directly, but it can shorten your life...and certainly make it worse.

To say it more clearly, the really bad fears are the ones that makes you believe that something bad will happen to you.
When you believe (accept deep in your mind) that something bad will happen... OK, you are defining what will happen.

That have close relation with what you confess (express) with your mouth.

When it comes to COVID, though, I'd say that there isn't enough fear, at least not in the US. People are acting like it doesn't exist, and plenty are dying from it. That's not an excess of concern, let alone fear.

And between, there are all degrees of fears that even no so dramatic, they are still harmful or cause different degrees of problems.
I don't think that USA is the exception. No from what I see. But you know better because you live there.

At the end, most negative things are fears: anxiety, prejudice, most if not all negative things have a background of fear.

It is no good to make people fear as most of the media did, that was my point.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Fear is sensational. Fear sells. That's where the, "If it bleeds it leads" phrase comes from. That's why news isn't just about puppies, even though most people like puppies a whole lot. It's also why so many amusement parks exist. That would be safe fear. Rock climbing is a different form. Free soloing is a more extreme form.

I agree that a lot of our problems arise from fears. Sometimes it's even displaced fears, but still fears. Still, I think it's overly simplifying to say that all fear is bad or that fear isn't desirable. The evidence is pretty strong that some fears are bad, but some fears are good, and still more are sought eagerly. It's really complicated.

[Eduardo-]

Fear is sensational. Fear sells. That's where the, "If it bleeds it leads" phrase comes from. That's why news isn't just about puppies, even though most people like puppies a whole lot. It's also why so many amusement parks exist. That would be safe fear. Rock climbing is a different form. Free soloing is a more extreme form.

I agree that a lot of our problems arise from fears. Sometimes it's even displaced fears, but still fears. Still, I think it's overly simplifying to say that all fear is bad or that fear isn't desirable. The evidence is pretty strong that some fears are bad, but some fears are good, and still more are sought eagerly. It's really complicated.

The "good" fears are the ones that serve to preserve you, like fear to walk in a cornice, for example.

Fear is a natural reaction to the unknown too. So having proper information is a step to get rid of them.
Confidence also displaces fears. The topic is wide.

[wes4dbt]

The "good" fears are the ones that serve to preserve you, like fear to walk in a cornice, for example.

True, fear of hospitalization/death from COVID is why people wear a mask and get vaccinated. (Some might do it just to protect others) So that would be a "good" fear. Maybe the media should scare us even more. lol

[Niya]

True, fear of hospitalization/death from COVID is why people wear a mask and get vaccinated. (Some might do it just to protect others) So that would be a "good" fear. Maybe the media should scare us even more. lol

For some people that might be true. But the real reason I wear masks is because I don't want to get charged $1000 by the courts if the police catch me without one. And the reason I got vaccinated is so I don't get gated from certain places and activities in the future that requires proof of vaccination. If I'm being honest, I really don't give a rat's ass about Covid.