Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

[Eduardo-]

Don't you consider the health care system, hospitals, doctors, nurses, support personnel, being overwhelmed with people refusing to get vaccinated an issue? If I'm vaccinated but cannot get elective surgery because the hospital is full of anti-vaxers then the unvaccinated are doing something to the vaccinated.

True, but we need to live in a society agreeing in compromise decisions that are the best possible for all, even if in the circumstance they are not ideal.
I mean, I believe that being not forced to vaccine the ones that don't want, is more important than the problems it causes.

Today's trends are to include minorities, like indians, gays, etc, nobody have to be discriminated. And what about unvacinated, when they have all the reasons to be unvacinated with experimental vaccines that comes from companies that are suspicious at best?
No rights for this minority (that is no really so small)?

Early on unvaccinated adults were infecting people that could not get the vaccine. The numbers of people that got sick or died might have been less if the people that could get vaccinated did.

Yes, but in that moment it was because there was lack of vaccines.
Anyway we are not at that moment now. And hospitals don't so have many serious cases as it used to be.
Why pursue enforcement now?

[wes4dbt]

I myself don't feel ashamed that I supported all the lock-down and the "police-state" at first, because, as I said, it was something unknown.
I still think that my position was justified at that time, and if I was wrong, OK, we have the right to be wrong and later change the mind, I think.

Nice we can agree on something. lol

I've changed my views too. There doesn't seem to be a high enough percentage of people willing to take the necessary steps for controlling the virus (to some degree), locking things down doesn't work if people are just gathering in other places. I still hope enough people wear their masks, get vaccinated so our hospital system doesn't get over run again. My daughter is a critical care nurse and her life has been very hard since the pandemic.

[sapator]

Being forced to be injected with cutting edge, unproven science juice is a bridge too far for me, and I'm not alone.

I've also never smoked a cigarette in my life, nor done any sort of drugs. I doubt that those of you craving your next booster can say the same.

Officially my last post in this thread, and if I could delete this entire thread I would in a heartbeat. The only thing more infectious than Covid these days is idiocy it seems.

I don't agree with that. It's interesting to see what the opinion of people is and I believe we are on at least a medium IQ level so we won't go act like animals.But hey if you want to delete posts just leave all mine since they are all correct and would go ahead an leave dil's , the man is insanely genius.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Being forced to be injected with cutting edge, unproven science juice is a bridge too far for me, and I'm not alone.

I've also never smoked a cigarette in my life, nor done any sort of drugs. I doubt that those of you craving your next booster can say the same.

I can. That probably doesn't surprise anybody.

And that science stuff isn't news to me, either. I understood mRNA back in the early 90s when I was in graduate school. That wasn't cutting edge even back then. They needed to solve a few problems. Sequencing genomes to the necessary level was solved by the early 2000s. I'm not sure when sequencing the proteins was figured out. Determining how they would fold is not fully solved yet. Figuring out how to keep the mRNA from being instantly degraded was the other two parts of the problem (there are two pieces that have to be solved). Other than that, your existence was the proof of the science. You are creating mRNA in every living cell in your body (at least those that are yours) all the time every day. We've known how mRNA is turned into protein in the ribosomes since the 80s, at least. You are doing that in every cell in your body every day. All the vaccine does is have your cell temporarily create the spike protein in addition to all the others you are creating. The mRNA degrades, as it always does, so the production of spike is limited.

[wes4dbt]

True, but we need to live in a society agreeing in compromise decisions that are the best possible for all, even if in the circumstance they are not ideal.
I mean, I believe that being not forced to vaccine the ones that don't want, is more important than the problems it causes.

Then how do we compromise. If we say, get vaccinated if you want or don't get vaccinated if you don't want. How is that a compromise from the people that didn't want to get vaccinated? There has been compromises used. Like, you don't have to get vaccinated but if you don't you have to get tested. But that was unacceptable to a lot of the unvaccinated.

I really think by now people have made their choice and nothing I can say will change anything. As far as mandates, I don't think they will be successful in the US. Probably be stuck in the courts long enough that it wont make much difference one way or the other by the time a decision is made.

[FunkyDexter]

Really, the amount of hyperbolic nonsense in this thread is ridiculous.

This is not Nazism. Nazis didn't stop at refusing people entry into restaurants and nightclubs, they exterminated them.

This is not fascism. Fascism is a political ideology characterised by extreme nationalism and an aggressive foreign policy. The word is inapplicable here.

You have not lost your right to free speech. This is evidenced by the fact that you are taking part in this discussion and not been banned. You have lost access to some platforms which you never had an inalienable right to anyway. And, no, this is not unique to you. All these platforms have excluded certain forms of speech since their very inception.

You have not been "forced" to take a vaccine. You have, perhaps, been coerced, which is the very basis of society (see below).

Democracy is not under threat (well, it is from the GOP but that's a different discussion, it's not under threat from Covid anyway). Nobody is calling for elections to be called off as a result of Covid or for you to lose your vote.

You are not "mere puppets" unless you live in a dictatorship. I should know, I've lived in one. You have a vote, you have a voice. You just don't like being told that the what you're saying is incorrect and dangerous. You have never had a right for your void to go unchallenged.

You are being socially engineered, that's true, but not for some nefarious purpose as is being implied. You have been socially engineered your whole life, starting with your Mum and Dad. Society has always applied pressure to individuals to do the things that benefit that society as a whole. This is neither new nor is it driven by shady cabals - it is driven by society. The reason you government is applying that pressure to you on this issue is because society at large is demanding it of them.

[Shaggy Hiker]

True, but we need to live in a society agreeing in compromise decisions that are the best possible for all, even if in the circumstance they are not ideal.
I mean, I believe that being not forced to vaccine the ones that don't want, is more important than the problems it causes.

Today's trends are to include minorities, like indians, gays, etc, nobody have to be discriminated. And what about unvacinated, when they have all the reasons to be unvacinated with experimental vaccines that comes from companies that are suspicious at best?
No rights for this minority (that is no really so small)?



Yes, but in that moment it was because there was lack of vaccines.
Anyway we are not at that moment now. And hospitals don't so have many serious cases as it used to be.
Why pursue enforcement now?

That depends a whole lot on where you are. Lots of these arguments do. You know where I'm from, and Sappy, Wes, and Olaf. I thought you were European, but you said it's spring where you are, which means you're in the southern hemisphere. That does change things a bit.

Where I live, the maximum hospitalization was only a couple months ago. At that point, the hospitals overflowed and either all, or nearly all, health districts in this state went to emergency standards of care, which meant that they would turn people away if they weren't about to die. Even so, one of the hospitals had to turn away a request to accept a patient from Texas. If Texas is looking as far away as Idaho to unload patients, that's bad. So, our hospitals only reached the point of overload a few months back. We only left crisis standards in the last month (I think northern Idaho may still be in crisis care mode).

The US has also passed 800,000 official deaths from COVID, and the number of deaths above normal has been running 20-30% above the official COVID count, and has been doing so since the virus showed up (just in case somebody thinks those excess deaths have something to do with vaccines, since they were there before vaccines had been invented). Most of those dead people have families, so, this has impacted a LOT of people in this country.

And yet our response has largely been to ignore the virus.

Kentucky just got blasted by tornadoes. Those storms killed dozens of people and destroyed towns. The response was that everybody turned out to help. We have a virus that is killing hundreds of thousands and we literally won't do the least thing we can do. For most of the US, life is back to normal in almost every way. There are more masks than there were before the pandemic, but less than you'd see in S. Korea or Japan before the pandemic. Even if people are afraid of vaccines, they aren't afraid of masks. Most everybody understands that germs are transmitted through various things, even if they couldn't tell a virus from a bacteria from a protozoan, so everybody understands masks. And yet, so many states have not just refused mask mandates, they have prohibited anybody from instituting them.

You keep suggesting that I'm afraid. I'm one of the least afraid people you'd meet. I've taken full advantage of this, since working from home just means forgoing a pointless commute, saving money, eating better, and exercising more. There's really been no downside, for me. Heck, the government even gave me a few thousand dollars.

That last one may be a difference for different countries, as well. The US response was to shovel a few thousand dollars out to everybody (about $4,000 over two years, I think, though it may be higher), and a whole lot more to anybody who was out of work as a result (the federal government added a supplement to state unemployment such that a fair number of poorly paid people ended up making more not working than they had working for about a year). There was also a child credit that boosted the income for those with young children...I think. I'm not even tuned in to that one, so I'm not quite sure how it worked, or whether it was all that meaningful for most people.

Basically, the US threw a LOT of money at people over two years. I believe we did more in that regard than any other country. If you live anywhere else, you experienced a much different reality. Lockdowns likely hit a lot harder (they were sporadic, poorly enforced, and brief in the US). Unemployment probably bit a lot harder, as well. On the other hand, our death toll is the tops in the world, so we have that, as well.

[Eduardo-]

Then how do we compromise. If we say, get vaccinated if you want or don't get vaccinated if you don't want. How is that a compromise from the people that didn't want to get vaccinated? There has been compromises used. Like, you don't have to get vaccinated but if you don't you have to get tested. But that was unacceptable to a lot of the unvaccinated.

It is difficult, yes, I know.
But I think that if we (the society) allow that the government can inject something into your body by force, something that not even them know truly what it is... it is a very dangerous precedent.

Or course you don't care because there are no conspiracies, never.
I remember someone that said "the fact that I'm paranoid does not mean that I'm not being persecuted".
What if something is really happening?
Are you 100% sure? (How can you be?)

Even if you are, I believe we should not support something like that.

I really think by now people have made their choice and nothing I can say will change anything. As far as mandates, I don't think they will be successful in the US. Probably be stuck in the courts long enough that it wont make much difference one way or the other by the time a decision is made.

Probably, hopefully for U.S. people.
But not everywhere.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I should say something more about Japan, since I glossed over that. Japan has very few deaths, very high vaccination rates (though they started VERY late relative to the US), and very high masking. That country has a very high degree of social cohesion and accepted that the government couldn't help them. Instead, they accepted that they all had to do their part, and the result is that they have very few deaths.

The US did the same thing around tornadoes. Natural disasters in this country brings out the social cohesion and local assistance. Once the natural disaster is over, though, we go right back to social dissonance and division. We understand social cohesion. We pull together locally in the case of a natural disaster. We even rely on the government in the case of a natural disaster of the right type. Yet we won't do the least socially cohesive thing we can do otherwise. We mostly just complain.

[Eduardo-]

You keep suggesting that I'm afraid.

Yes, that's what I think.

About vaccines in U.S. and all the hospitalizations that you had in later months, don't you think, perhaps by chance, that the vaccines applied there didn't work very well?

Just saying, at least didn't cross that in your mind?

[Shaggy Hiker]

It is difficult, yes, I know.
But I think that if we (the society) allow that the government can inject something into your body by force, something that not even them know truly what it is... it is a very dangerous precedent.

Yeah, if that was even remotely true, but it isn't. We know exactly what it is. It's mRNA with a leading tag to keep it from being degraded long enough for it to make it to the ribosomes, and it's wrapped in a bubble of fatty acids. Every bit of it is known. People just aren't sufficiently educated to understand what any of that means, so it scares them, or they can be scared by it. It's pretty much the same as the fears surrounding dihydrogen oxide: What's being injected is what is already in your body and uses the processes that your body is already using to create you and keep you alive.

Those vaccines were being developed to fight certain types of cancers. My mother died of a very rare cancer over a decade back. That cancer couldn't be treated at the time. I read a year or two back that it is now not just treatable, but curable. The biology behind this is known and knowable.

Or course you don't care because there are no conspiracies, never.
I remember someone that said "the fact that I'm paranoid does not mean that I'm not being persecuted".
What if something is really happening?
Are you 100% sure? (How can you be?)

There ARE conspiracies. You can even identify them. They require a small number of collaborators with similar motivations. This one explicitly requires that you not think about how it would be possible. If you think of the people that have to be in collusion, both the numbers and the ideologies, it becomes absurd.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yes, that's what I think.

About vaccines in U.S. and all the hospitalizations that you had in later months, don't you think, perhaps by chance, that the vaccines applied there didn't work very well?

Just saying, at least didn't cross that in your mind?

Why would it need to? Idaho has one of the three lowest vaccination rates in the US, and the areas that had the lockdowns first had the lowest vaccination rates in the state. Basically, this population doesn't have vaccines. Nobody is quite sure what level would be required for herd immunity, but 40% isn't it, and 30% is even worse.

[wes4dbt]

Or course you don't care because there are no conspiracies, never.
I remember someone that said "the fact that I'm paranoid does not mean that I'm not being persecuted".
What if something is really happening?
Are you 100% sure? (How can you be?)

Ah, damn. I was enjoying reading your post and then BAM, right back to making false statement. I've haven't said there is "no conspiracies, never".
It would be silly to think I know the truth about everything or there aren't some people trying to manipulate me or the "system". But believing in conspiracies just because it's "possible" and then spreading that belief is harmful to you and others.

[sapator]

As vaccines goodness was mention again, and as we are all uneducated to understand and do the vaccine, you can take Shaggy word or you can take their word, specialist and highly nominated but the system kicked them out because they don't go along.
I'm re posting this:

There was a doctors Symposium yesterday. In the first hour they did autopsies on vaccinated people died and found "strange" problems and also they saw other issues p.e in the eye next they talk about lockdowns and so and in they end they talk about Myocarditis.
The damn thing is 4 hours long so I just shuffled, I'm against anything that is going on right now anyhow so it wouldn't re- convince me but for anyone anyone interested https://rumble.com/vqj9mh-doctors-fo...g-the-cal.html

The program and such:
https://doctors4covidethics.org/covi...ber-10-2021-2/

So now we are officially educated and afraid, or trust Shaggy (it does seem like I'm attacking him but I really don't , I just teaching him a lesson ).

[FunkyDexter]

I've haven't said there is "no conspiracies, never".

The strawman is the first play the playbook. Take something that someone said (I don't believe in this conspiracy), extrapolate it into something they didn't say (There's no such thing as conspiracy) and then argue against that thing because it's easier than arguing against the thing they actually said.

The second play is hyperbole. Similar to the strawman except that instead of extrapolating from what someone said you extrapolate from actual reality. E.g. "if we (the society) allow that the government can inject something into your body by force"

Play 3: anyone telling you you're wrong is persecuting you.

[sapator]

hyperbole, is what I can more closely translate, overexaggeration

[Eduardo-]

We know exactly what it is.

OK, you must be one of the few privileged persons that have access to that information.
Yes, for sure, I have no reasons to doubt it if you say so

It's mRNA with a leading tag to keep it from being degraded long enough for it to make it to the ribosomes, and it's wrapped in a bubble of fatty acids.

Ah, thank you! Now that you can confirm the official information that everybody knows I can be more confident.
You know exactly what is contained (and nothing else), and for sure you must also know (to be so confident) that in the long term there will not cause any type of harm to the organism.

IDK why the laboratories made it so secret and forced governments into signing agreements that state that they are not responsible of any outcome after vaccination, in the short, long term, never. But that's anyway what lawyers always do, right?
I now can trust because you told me you know exactly what it is and what it does.

Every bit of it is known. People just aren't sufficiently educated to understand what any of that means, so it scares them, or they can be scared by it.

You confuse education with being naive.

This reminds me that fact about science: that
1) The people that know very little knoww they don't know.
2) The people that know some, think they know.
3) The people that know more, realize that they don't know much.

The 2) are a problem. And they are the greatest group. Educated people (a bit educated, possible finished university) that thinks they know.

The third group are real scientists, people that really know about a subject (to the extend it is known today), but at the same time know that there is more than they don't know that what they know.

Vaccines in the past have been tested for decades before there were enough confidence to apply them massively.

I'm not saying that I'm against the emergency approval, but I'm totally against making them mandatory.
Everyone should have the right to choose between taking the risk or not.
And nobody should be coerced either.

RNAm vaccines were not ready until 2018 (search the web), so sapator is absolutely right when he says it is new, cutting-edge technology.

There ARE conspiracies. You can even identify them. They require a small number of collaborators with similar motivations. This one explicitly requires that you not think about how it would be possible. If you think of the people that have to be in collusion, both the numbers and the ideologies, it becomes absurd.

I spent yesterday all day in the twinBasic thread, and now I'm spending much time on this one, so my intent is to quit.
This topic is broad and not easy, but I think you are wrong if you think that something like that requires many, many people agreeing in a conspiracy.

I'll explain: it is like a big company: the bosses, the owners, define what they want. They agree in some objectives and have a master plan about how to accomplish all those.
Then there is a second line of CEOs, that don't have to know the plan, being part of the idea or know all the objectives.
They are instructed what to do, in just the part that they need to accomplish.
Every employee below them knows even less, they just have to obey to some specific task that there are hired to do.

No so difficult.

In this case it is a bit more complex because it is very big and involve many different companies and governments.

But not different from what they were doing for decades, so what makes you think it is difficult?
They were doing these things already before the pandemic.

Or do we live in Wonderland?

[Eduardo-]

Why would it need to? Idaho has one of the three lowest vaccination rates in the US, and the areas that had the lockdowns first had the lowest vaccination rates in the state. Basically, this population doesn't have vaccines. Nobody is quite sure what level would be required for herd immunity, but 40% isn't it, and 30% is even worse.

You only need to read official news. Vaccinated people are being infected with Delta in U.S. and Europe, and going to hospitals.

[Eduardo-]

You only need to read official news. Vaccinated people are being infected with Delta in U.S. and Europe, and going to hospitals.

And it is not what is happening here, where people were vaccinated with adenovirus viral vector vaccines and inactivated virus vaccines.
Few infections of Delta.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I have only a slight idea where 'here' is for you, aside from it being in the southern hemisphere. I don't know whether people are following any kind of protocols, or what they are.

In the US, we are largely doing nothing. We do have some breakthrough cases and we have some breakthrough deaths. Those people always seem to have some serious underlying comorbidities, but where are they? And where are you?

Deaths in China are VERY low, as are infections. Is it because of their excellent vaccines? Probably not, it's far more likely to be the fact that they will lock down an entire city in response to a single case. In the US, we are militantly doing nothing in most cases. When Idaho hospitals were in crisis care, I couldn't point to much of anything to say that anybody was taking any precautions. There were signs here and there, and 5-10% of people wore masks.

Meanwhile, a buddy of mine just got back from a fishing trip in Brazil. He was amazed at the level of mask compliance down there. He was having a drink with his father and got up to use the bathroom and found everybody staring at him. He quickly realized it was because he was the only unmasked person in the place, since he had forgotten to put his mask on when he got up.

We were talking in a full restaurant. Only the staff was wearing masks.

Do you feel immune thanks to that vaccine you got? Even surviving COVID isn't proof against re-infection, as was shown repeatedly prior to the vaccines being produced (mostly from the P2 variant, which became...what, Epsilon? Beta? I forget). Are you sure that your safety isn't due to social measures? I certainly wouldn't know, since I don't know where you are or what measures are being taken in that area. I know that there are darn near none around here, though.

[Eduardo-]

it becomes absurd.

It doesn't become absurd if you are a bit informed about the current plans:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...39;ll+be+happy

https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/

[sapator]

To specify I was talking for the vaccines as a whole not just mr.Nay.
But I missed a crucial part on Shaggy post, are you saying that mr.Nay vaccines cure cancer? Can you be more specific?

[baka]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ovid-mps-told/

https://www.wionews.com/world/reason...-expert-437263

[wes4dbt]

You only need to read official news.

Can't trust them, they might be part of the conspiracy.

Vaccinated people are being infected with Delta in U.S. and Europe, and going to hospitals.

Sure it happens but 90% or more of severe cases and deaths are the unvaccinated. Considering that @ 39% of the population is unvaccinated, it seems the vaccine is saving lives. We're still averaging @ 1,200 deaths a day and it's sad because it's so unnecessary.

[sapator]

These are just speculations, there is no proof. Gimeproof!Gimeproof!!Gimeproof!!!
Right, just save you guys time.

[Eduardo-]

I have only a slight idea where 'here' is for you, aside from it being in the southern hemisphere.

I'm from Argentina.

I don't know whether people are following any kind of protocols, or what they are.

More or less. People are tired.
In my city, because now it is not the same everywhere, I think 8from the last I read some months ago) that they are still enforcing the use of mask in the streets.
From since about two months I'm not doing it in the streets, at the open air.
What I observe is that it is like half and half, half wear and half not.
In my area there are many young people, lot of students. Perhaps in areas with older people they use more.

To enter a shop, or in any closed space, you are supposed to wear mask, and I think most comply, I do (I have always one in my pocket).

In restaurants and bars, no, people don't wear masks. It is supposed that it is because you are eating, or having a drink. Or that's the excuse.

I went to a discotheque like one month ago, lot of people, nobody with masks.
I have no idea if they were vaccinated or not because that was not a requirement (in that moment, not sure how that will be with the current trends), but being mostly quite old people I guess they were mostly vaccinated.

In the US, we are largely doing nothing. We do have some breakthrough cases and we have some breakthrough deaths. Those people always seem to have some serious underlying comorbidities, but where are they? And where are you?

Deaths in China are VERY low, as are infections. Is it because of their excellent vaccines? Probably not, it's far more likely to be the fact that they will lock down an entire city in response to a single case.

My guess is that the reason are or could be:

1) In China they enforce everything, at the start of the pandemic they even welded the door of infected families.
That full control of course is a big factor.

That's what you want for your country?

2) My guess, because I don't have information to assert that as a fact, is that their vaccines are better. They have vaccinated most of their population already.

3) They hide information, so we really don't know much.

Do you feel immune thanks to that vaccine you got?

No 100%. I would not go to kiss someone that I know has Delta.

Even surviving COVID isn't proof against re-infection, as was shown repeatedly prior to the vaccines being produced (mostly from the P2 variant, which became...what, Epsilon? Beta? I forget). Are you sure that your safety isn't due to social measures? I certainly wouldn't know, since I don't know where you are or what measures are being taken in that area. I know that there are darn near none around here, though.

Fortunately, if what I think is right, this will end soon (three months perhaps).
And if I'm wrong, it won't be the first time.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Fortunately, if what I think is right, this will end soon (three months perhaps).
And if I'm wrong, it won't be the first time.

I don't disagree with anything you said there. It sounds like Argentina is doing a whole lot better than the US when it comes to complying with being responsible. Frankly, I'm not surprised. The US is odd that way. We're a strange mix of very community oriented and very anti-community. We lament it, we agonize about it, and we do nothing about it.

I think that a big part of the disagreements in this thread are due to the different ways we experienced the pandemic. It has been an economic disaster for lots of places in the world, but thanks to the funding model in the US, it's been considerably different for us.

[wes4dbt]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ovid-mps-told/

https://www.wionews.com/world/reason...-expert-437263

If your point is a lot of people "think" the virus originated in the Wuhan lab, then Ok. That would be my guess. But I wouldn't call it proof.

Was the virus genetically engineered? Don't really have a guess. I'm mean. guess if it came from the lab and then continue the guessing until you believe it was genetically engineered. Where does this type of thing stop. It definitely could be true but it could just as easily be wrong so why waste your time.

[wes4dbt]

These are just speculations, there is no proof. Gimeproof!Gimeproof!!Gimeproof!!!
Right, just save you guys time.

I got those numbers from several studies. If your interested they're not hard to find. But I have to admit, none of my information came from Russell Brand.

[Eduardo-]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ovid-mps-told/

https://www.wionews.com/world/reason...-expert-437263

Exactly, Peter Daszak from EcoHealth was one of the main actors behind this.

In this video he admits that they were working in the gain function. I think the interview is from 2019.

[Eduardo-]

Can't trust them, they might be part of the conspiracy.

It is clear that you still don't understand.
It is not that every news reporter is in a big meeting with all conspiracionist.
They are employees, they receive guidelines what is correct to say and what is not correct to say.
Do you know about chain of command?
You have to do what you are instructed to do. If you wnat to do something else, OK, it is simple: you are fired.

Is that hard to understand?

And most are like you, you and other at this forum (but can be found everywhere), are the perfect example of why a reporter do what they do.
The just follow the trends, if everybody is saying that, it must the correct!

And if the rebel, OK, I already said: someone else will fill your place.
Simple like that.

Do you think that every reporter, every doctor, every governor or president are part of the conspiracy?
LOL! this is so naive.

It does not work like that.

Sure it happens but 90% or more of severe cases and deaths are the unvaccinated. Considering that @ 39% of the population is unvaccinated, it seems the vaccine is saving lives. We're still averaging @ 1,200 deaths a day and it's sad because it's so unnecessary.

Yes, I believe that vaccines does help somewhat, but they don't seem to be too effective (not as publicized at least).

[Eduardo-]

I don't disagree with anything you said there. It sounds like Argentina is doing a whole lot better than the US when it comes to complying with being responsible. Frankly, I'm not surprised. The US is odd that way. We're a strange mix of very community oriented and very anti-community. We lament it, we agonize about it, and we do nothing about it.

Here the people in 2020 somewhat obeyed, but also because the lock-down was mandatory, and the use of masks.
But also many people didn't, specially the one of less resources.

We had a lot of infections in mid 2020, and that must had generated some immunity.
In 2021 started the vaccination, and we have now according to here 82.2% with one dose and 68,76% with two doses.
Quite high vaccination rate.

Also, it is my guess (mostly seeing the result) that the vaccines applied here were better.
For political reasons(*), we had the Russian Sputnik V, Oxford–AstraZeneca and Chinese Sinopharm vaccines.
Now from some months ago we also have Moderna, Pfizer and I think Cansino, but most of the people were already vaccinated when we got those.

I think that a big part of the disagreements in this thread are due to the different ways we experienced the pandemic. It has been an economic disaster for lots of places in the world, but thanks to the funding model in the US, it's been considerably different for us.

Here it was a disaster. Many SMEs went bankrupt.
The lock-down in 2020 was one of the longest in the world.
Like from March to November.
Crazy.


(*) The government that we have now is one of the worst in the history of the country, and they are aligned with Venezuela, Russia, China...

[baka]

and even if fully vaccinated are not protected against omicron, the government here seems stuck in a loop, "we need to give the next vaccine to people", even if we are one of the most vaccinated people on earth.

and they will enforce even more laws and restrictions, to try to stop something that is unstoppable.

and people seems to think its nature, and not an agenda behind all this, like 11/9 and other events in the past that had a purpose. this is yet again another, to control people,

the economy is about to crash, we are actually already past date. and u think the people in power will not do anything?

[sapator]

In most of the public places everyone is using a mask.
I see people walking alone in the streets using a mask and are vaccinated(I know because I stalk at them and they go indoors so vaxbieeeesss!!!Stalker here!Sir!Stalker here!!). So yep, you have done it, you made sure we are extremely cautious right now.....Oh snap, except the cases are going higher and higher and all the unvaccinated are at home, washing their tights but...But but but....But. The high cases come from the unvaccinated, you know the ones that don't go into crowded and indoor places and they are 70-80% of the cases...You know there is a problem when you lock down the unvaccinated and let the vaxbies walk free, dropping all the cases on the unvaccinated cannot be justified and we are talking double the cases from last year with unvacciuties lockdowns and vaccines. You can lie, no one believe you but you can lie, until you pay for what you are doing. But wait! There is no proof! The numbers!J-J-Just look at the numbers, they must be true, the government says so... Boy I just hope we vote correctly in the elections, payback time ain't big of a word of what it's coming for them.

P.S. I would be very interested to view wes studies that prove that the virus did not originate from Wuhan because that was the quote he responded to me.Both me and Russell Brand would be very interested.

[wes4dbt]

It has been an economic disaster for lots of places in the world, but thanks to the funding model in the US, it's been considerably different for us.

I've haven't done research but I'd say it's been a financial disaster for a lot of our small businesses, restaurants and bar. I know there was money allocated to help them but not sure it was enough or distributed correctly. Also, a lot of people haven't been paying rent which puts a lot of burden on the people paying the mortgages.

It hasn't affected me and it hasn't affected you but I'm retired and you kept working. But I am encourage that people going back into the work force seem to be demanding a more livable wage. That could turn out to be a positive side effect.

[wes4dbt]

It is clear that you still don't understand.
It is not that every news reporter is in a big meeting with all conspiracionist.
They are employees, they receive guidelines what is correct to say and what is not correct to say.
Do you know about chain of command?
You have to do what you are instructed to do. If you wnat to do something else, OK, it is simple: you are fired.

Is that hard to understand?

NO, you don't seem to understand. The media in this country DOES NOT say the same thing. The political groups DO NOT say the same thing. They are constantly denouncing the others position on mask, vaccines, mandates .... According to you this must be all part of their plan so we wont notice this massive conspiracy. They must have been planning this since 1776 because that's how long this has been going on. PLUS you are right back to assuming I make my judgement on things the I hear or see on FOX or CNN or NBC or from the Republican or the Democrats media. I don't.

So far your only evidence of a conspiracy that you have provided is, "it's possible". So it must be happening. Oh I forgot Russell Brand. To be honest I didn't bother to watch that video, I doubt he has a doctorate in epidemiology or sociology or economics but maybe he is a member of the "inner circle". I wonder if they have secret handshake, that would be cool.

Oh btw, this

You have to do what you are instructed to do. If you wnat to do something else, OK, it is simple: you are fired.

Don't know about Argentinians but not everyone here is afraid to be fired or just resigning. We have a long history of whistleblowers. It can be quite profitable but it can be costly. But the idea that everyone is going to fall in line and do what they're told like little drones is ridiculous. Some will, some wont.

[wes4dbt]

P.S. I would be very interested to view wes studies that prove that the virus did not originate from Wuhan because that was the quote he responded to me.Both me and Russell Brand would be very interested.

I be interest in knowing which post I said that because I don't believe it's been proved one way or the other. So I have no "studies" to provide. Maybe this was back in my younger years, I was a wild man back then.

[Eduardo-]

I won't spend much more effort, but I'll give one more try:

NO, you don't seem to understand. The media in this country DOES NOT say the same thing. The political groups DO NOT say the same thing. They are constantly denouncing the others position on mask, vaccines, mandates .... According to you this must be all part of their plan so we wont notice this massive conspiracy. They must have been planning this since 1776 because that's how long this has been going on. PLUS you are right back to assuming I make my judgement on things the I hear or see on FOX or CNN or NBC or from the Republican or the Democrats media. I don't.

I'm not saying that everyone is onboard, or fully.

But if you paid attention to what I said, it is not that they are conspiring, they are simply employees managed by another employee, that is also under another employee (may be not from the same company, but is who pays).

On the other hand, they are also people like you and like other here in this same forum, they are people with fear.
It is not that hard to make them say what the plan needs, just make them fear as everybody else. So the reporters.

And also... do you think that most reporters understand how science works? Do you understand how science works?
I don't know about you, but I don't think that most reporters know how science works. They report what they are instructed to report.
And their "scientific" sources (The Lancet, whatever) also have instructions, because nothing is free in this world, there is always someone paying their salaries, and this someone is paid by someone else... and who are them?

If you followed a bit how the events unfolded (I did), you must have been surprised how 20 scientist in early 2020 when suspicion started immediately signed a paper, stating that "this virus was clearly a natural disease".
This year was known that they were paid. But of course, that didn't appear in every newspaper as when they signed the paper.

Someone has to willingly close the eyes for not seeing these things.

So no, it is not that there were millions of conspirators that met in a secret place somewhere.

OK, I'm tired. Perhaps tomorrow I have more clarity to explain it better.

It is like I said before in other post, it didn't begin with the pandemic, they have been doing this for long time already, with the ecologist agenda, the gay agenda, the feminist agenda, and selling products of their companies too.
They are not improvised, companies know very well how to sell products and ideas. You can't be naive about that.

I'm not saying that every company is on that, or every billionaire, or every politician.
But it seems it is a group with enough power to be able to do it.
I quite sure they hated Donald Trump because he was an outsider, someone that could not manage.

Almost every major media was against him.
When there are so huge campaigns, a normal person have to suspect that something is happening, because you are seeing it.

So far your only evidence of a conspiracy that you have provided is, "it's possible".

Well, I have recordings of Bill Gates, George Soros, Peter Daszak, Anthony Fauci, Klaus Schwab and a couple more in a hotel room discussing the plan.
I was hiding and filmed in secret. I'll show you the video later.

So it must be happening. Oh I forgot Russell Brand. To be honest I didn't bother to watch that video, I doubt he has a doctorate in epidemiology or sociology or economics but maybe he is a member of the "inner circle". I wonder if they have secret handshake, that would be cool.

Common sense and not being paid to lie is more important.

But (of course) believe what you want. We are free.
I won't judge if you want to go with the masses because you feel safer by doing so.

[wes4dbt]

Do you understand how science works?

Yes I think so. I have a degree that says so. But it really isn't important because your talking about a massive conspiracy, not science.

It is like I said before in other post, it didn't begin with the pandemic, they have been doing this for long time already, with the ecologist agenda, the gay agenda, the feminist agenda, and selling products of their companies too.
They are not improvised, companies know very well how to sell products and ideas. You can't be naive about that.

The ecologist agenda is a conspiracy
The gay agenda is a conspiracy
The feminist agenda is a conspiracy
Companies selling us product is a conspiracy

You believe all that and then claim I'm afraid. Ecologists, gays, feminist, companies selling product don't scare me, BRING THEM ON. I'll fight them all with one hand behind my back. lol

[Shaggy Hiker]

(*) The government that we have now is one of the worst in the history of the country, and they are aligned with Venezuela, Russia, China...

I'm well aware of that. You voted them out, voted in a technocrat who tried to fix some of the problems that de Kirchner caused, but that created short term pain, so he was voted out and you got de Kirchner again. There's pain coming because of bad actors in the past, who are back in the present, but the can will be kicked down the road yet a little longer.