Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

[TysonLPrice]

Trump must be fuming this morning

When he was asked during Monday’s news briefing what authority he has to reopen the country, he didn’t hesitate to answer. “I have the ultimate authority,” the president responded, cutting off the reporter who was speaking.

Trump later clarified his position further, telling reporters, “When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total and that’s the way it’s got to be. … It’s total. The governors know that.”

Well this morning the media, including his personal network Fox, are saying "No you don't". I can't wait to see how he walks this back or insists that isn't what he meant.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...n-coronavirus/

[TysonLPrice]

More irony...

An evangelical pastor and founder of The New Deliverance Evangelistic Church in Virginia died of the coronavirus after he held a church service in defiance of safety protocols in late March, the church announced Sunday.

Bishop Gerald O. Glenn told his congregation he would hold service “unless I’m in jail or the hospital,” the New York Post reported. His last in-person service was held on March 22, in defiance of official warnings to practice social distancing as schools were closing, the New York Daily News reported.

He should have said “unless I’m in jail or the hospital or my grave,”

[dreammanor]

Sheesh, using a vast human tragedy to further cynical political goals? So shameful.

And then there's Trump.

My God...that is what Trump does every night when he should be in charge of the pandemic. He rants on and on about the democrats, lies over and over again about his handling of the crisis, and constantly deflects about his inaction in the beginning.

Last night's nation wide address was more of a republican campaign stop than anything else. He put together a video timeline, at tax payer expense, detailing how he reacted. Guess what, most of February was missing. When a reporter called him out on that he called her "disgraceful".

I don't know of anyone, including myself, more than Trump, that makes this political.

This is why no matter how many times he lied, there are always many people who believe him. No matter how bad he did, there are still a lot of supporters.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Fourteen pages.

It's as if this is important, or something.

Kind of like the Post Race.

[TysonLPrice]

Fourteen pages.

It's as if this is important, or something.

Kind of like the Post Race.

Worst pandemic in over one-hundred years...you are over sixty posts. It as a few people's attention

[TysonLPrice]

I spoke to soon about Trump backing off...his surrogates are pushing that WHO is in the back pocket of China and they were colluding to protect them. My guess is they are supporting the moron by saying he is right that WHO funding needs cut. They tend to come out of the woodwork to support his idiocy just to save face for him.

WOW..I was sure wrong about that!!!!!!!!!!!

Full blown attack now...the funding is being cut!

[wes4dbt]

WOW..I was sure wrong about that!!!!!!!!!!!

Full blown attack now...the funding is being cut!

Not without the approval of congress. He can put a hold on it for 45 days. At least according to CNBC

It’s unclear exactly what mechanism Trump intends to use to withhold WHO funding, much of which is appropriated by Congress. The president typically does not have the authority to unilaterally redirect congressional funding.

One option might be for Trump to use powers granted to the president under the Impoundment Control Act of 1974. Under this statute, the president may propose to withhold congressional funds, but it requires congressional approval within 45 days. Absent this approval, the funds must be returned to their original, congressionally mandated purpose after 45 days.

Classic con man trick, misdirection. Sad thing is it will work. The people that want to believe in Trump will accept that everyone else is to blame. Everyone else made up their mind about him a long time ago so this is just more of the same. Nothing new here.

[wes4dbt]

NYC death toll jumps by 3,700 after uncounted fatalities are added

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/14/trum...-outbreak.html

You got to wonder how many Governors, especially the one who waited to shut down their state, are doing things like this.

Don't think it's just US governors, how else could you explain India only has 393 report virus deaths.
The US has tested 9,260/per Mil, Italy 17,758/per Mil, Switzerland 22,000+ /per Mil.

India 177/per Mil, Brazil 296/per Mil

The total of uncounted virus deaths around the world could be staggering.

[TysonLPrice]

Trump had his name printed on the memo line of the paper checks that are going of to ease the economic impact. He wanted to sign them but he is not authorized. Now if he was the one that earned the money I can see that. Instead he is taking american tax dollars and taking credit for giving it back

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...2b7_story.html

[si_the_geek]

The total of uncounted virus deaths around the world could be staggering.

It certainly could.

Unfortunately the international standard for reporting the numbers is to only count those in hospitals. People at home or in retirement homes etc don't count.

It does make sense for the hospital numbers to be the standard, as they are dramatically easier and faster to get... but it means that we don't get the full picture, at least not immediately.

In the UK the 'full' numbers get published less often and about 10 days late, and from what we've seen so far they are about 15% higher than the hospital numbers. Other countries are rumoured to have a much higher difference in the 'full' numbers.

As one of the main government advisers has said on TV, it is important to count the direct and indirect numbers (ie: the total extra, not just the ones known to be related to COVID), as there are many knock-on effects that mean some people will miss out on treatment they would have had otherwise (eg: scared of going to hospital when having a heart attack, because they don't want to risk catching COVID). The numbers for that have started to be published here (with a long delay like the 'full' COVID numbers), and while it isn't a nice figure it doesn't seem too bad so far... but the numbers are from before our peak, so it could get worse later.

Unfortunately I get the impression that some countries wont be giving that kind of info, and their 'real' numbers could be rather nasty.

[FunkyDexter]

it is important to count the direct and indirect numbers

^Yeah, that's really important and is often overlooked. If you want to know how many deaths this has caused then you need to acknowledge that direct deaths aren't the full picture. And I suspect you're right that the numbers are likely to rise steeply over the coming weeks. The direct deaths (which are a bit more up to date) have so I imagine the indirect ones will rise similarly.

Classic con man trick, misdirection.

I agree. At this point he's saying he'll withhold the funding because of the WHO "covering up" the corona virus. This is a lie. His position seems to be rooted in their criticism of his travel ban from China but their criticism was that the travel ban was unfocussed and unlikely to be effective (and there is still no evidence that it was). At no point has the WHO claimed that the Corona virus didn't exist or tried to downplay it's severity. They were shouting it from the rooftops from the word go.

[dreammanor]

The total of uncounted virus deaths around the world could be staggering.

Yes, it is clear that many countries conceal the true numbers for political, economic and medical reasons.

In China, the government and people see human-life as more important than freedom and human rights. Therefore, China's COVID-19critical illness and death figures should be very accurate. As for whether the number of infected persons is true, this requires professional institutions to count (In fact, this number is difficult to count accurately).

As a Chinese who has been following the world situation for a long time, it seems to me that the Chinese government has higher credit than any other country on major issues. This may be different from many people's views, but it is a fact. However, the credit of Chinese medical experts is not high, especially those traditional medical experts. This seems to be the exact opposite of the United States.

In addition, with the exception of Hubei Province, where the epidemic is most severe, the situation in other provinces in China is much better than expected. On February 10, many provinces have allowed people to work outside. Our children have received formal notice that their school will resume class at the end of this month. So far, they have been taking online courses at home for more than 2 months. Originally, last month, the government planned to resume school classes, but in order to ensure safety, it was postponed for a month.

[wes4dbt]

In China, the government and people see human-life as more important than freedom and human rights.

I'll stick with freedom and human rights.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Freedom and human rights are not a given in any country. They must be fought for continually, and occasionally temporarily yielded, to some extent. For that reason, the fight will never end.

[TysonLPrice]

Freedom and human rights are not a given in any country. They must be fought for continually, and occasionally temporarily yielded, to some extent. For that reason, the fight will never end.

That is not even close to what our actual history is but let's keep our fingers crossed

[wes4dbt]

That is not even close to what our actual history is but let's keep our fingers crossed

Not sure what part of sh statement you disagree with, maybe the whole thing??? Seemed reasonable to me. If you were just joking, it must went over my head. Seems like that's starting to happen more frequently. lol

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Yes, it is clear that many countries conceal the true numbers for political, economic and medical reasons.

Mainly is just because of a lack of tests and testing ability. Test cost money which richer nations can afford and poorer nations can less afford. Also the swabs and reagents needed for testing are in short supply globally many countries dont have a stock pile and have struggled to get the numbers in the middle of a pandemic that they need.

In China, the government and people see human-life as more important than freedom and human rights. Therefore, China's COVID-19critical illness and death figures should be very accurate.

The numbers of deaths and cases in China are likely under reported, firstly due to the fact initially China was not counting asymptomatic carriers in there numbers and secondly like many other countries China was mainly counting deaths in hospitals.

China's success was due to the speed and scale of there response which was impressive.

The other countries that acted early such as South Korea & New Zealand and countries such as Germany which just has a much better prepared system in the first place also have responded well.

Most of the big western nations acted late and are now counting the cost of acting late with much higher deaths rates.

The under counting of cases is likely much more in countries such as India and Brazil where they are doing very little testing.

[dreammanor]

I'll stick with freedom and human rights.

Compared with the United States, China has two biggest differences:

(1) The national leader cannot be selected by voting.

(2) No right to hold a gun

If the above two points are not taken into account, the freedom and human rights of the Chinese people seem to be no less than other countries.

(1) As long as you are rich enough and have no criminal record, then you can immigrate to any country you want. You can also send your children to study abroad. China is the world's largest source of foreign students.

(2) In 2019, 190 million Chinese travel abroad .

(3) In 2019, the number of Chinese netizens was 854 million.

(4) The quality of life of most Chinese who have emigrated in the last 10 years is much lower than their quality of life in China.
Many Chinese emigrate abroad not because of freedom and human rights, but to avoid criminal investigations (usually, these people had serious economic crimes, but they claimed to be politically persecuted). The Chinese sympathize with those who are purely political prisoners, but are extremely disgusted with those who commit serious economic crimes and lie that they have been politically persecuted.

(5) There are about 200-400 million people in China with enough wealth to emigrate abroad, but most people are not willing to do so.

[TysonLPrice]

Trump and his sycophants are going full blast on FOX news blaming China for the pandemic. Senator Tom Cotton was just on TV saying they are deliberately trying to hide they made it in a lab. Likewise some other of the senators like Graham and Kennedy. They are getting pretty nasty about what they are saying. All this to deflect any responsibility away from Trump.

They stopped calling China, China also. Now every reference is to "Communist China". Just stirring up hate...

Trump dyed his hair grey taking away one of my favorite sayings about him..."He is an orange stain on the fabric of the United States"

[wes4dbt]

Compared with the United States, China has two biggest differences:

(1) The national leader cannot be selected by voting.

(2) No right to hold a gun

What about Freedom of the Press and OPEN internet access? So the government controls the information you receive. To say there are only two big differences is far from true.

Anyway, I don't want to debate which country is better. You seem happy with how the government runs China so that's good. Enjoy it.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Trump dyed his hair grey taking one of my favorite sayings about him..."He is an orange stain on the fabric of the United States"

It's his skin that's orange, not his hair.

[TysonLPrice]

It's his skin that's orange, not his hair.

That is just an illusion caused by energy efficient light bulbs.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/06/trump-...m-look-orange/

[wes4dbt]

You guys talking about the Great Pumpkin? His big ole Pumpkin Head is always entertaining. Luckily I was born with perfect proportions. what's happened since my birth I don't want to talk about. lol

[FunkyDexter]

Well China have just announced that they under reported the deaths in Wuhan by a third (so they've increased the death count by 50%). Not sure what the details behind that are. The most I've heard so far is that the hospitals under reported it.

[dreammanor]

Well China have just announced that they under reported the deaths in Wuhan by a third (so they've increased the death count by 50%). Not sure what the details behind that are. The most I've heard so far is that the hospitals under reported it.

Why don't you know the details behind it? If a reporter from the United States completely reports the official statement from China, then you should be very clear about the details behind it, and you will also understand why I say that the Chinese central government has better credit on major issues than other countries. But local/state governments in the United States perform better than local/provincial governments in China.

http://m.news.cctv.com/2020/04/17/AR...UI200417.shtml

Maybe you could use Google Translator to read it.

[FunkyDexter]

That didn't translate for me (don't know why, too big perhaps) and the BBC aren't giving any details yet. What's the gist?

[dreammanor]

What about Freedom of the Press and OPEN internet access? So the government controls the information you receive. To say there are only two big differences is far from true.

Anyway, I don't want to debate which country is better. You seem happy with how the government runs China so that's good. Enjoy it.

I know you will ask this question. Maybe you could think about the following questions:
(1) Is this country with 190 million people going abroad every year really restricting press freedom?
(2) Is this country with 854 million Internet users really restricting the Internet?
(3) Is this country that requires all students to learn English really a closed and conservative country?
(The annual number of students in school in China is about 230-250 million, excluding kindergarten children)
(4) Is this country that wants to do business with the whole world really what you think it is?


I'm not trying to argue which country is better. What I want to explain is that the coronavirus epidemic in the United States is caused by politics, and the coronavirus epidemic in other countries is caused by economic and medical conditions.

[dreammanor]

That didn't translate for me (don't know why, too big perhaps) and the BBC aren't giving any details yet. What's the gist?

Google Translator: (may be inaccurate)

1. Why should we correct the number of confirmed cases and deaths of newly diagnosed pneumonia in Wuhan?

Answer: The New Coronary Pneumonia epidemic is a major public health emergency that has occurred in China since the founding of New China. It has the fastest spread, the widest scope of infection, and the most difficult prevention and control. As the main battlefield for the decisive battle of national epidemic prevention and control, Wuhan City, under the strong leadership of the Party Central Committee and the State Council, and under the specific command of the Hubei Provincial Party Committee and Provincial Government, has adopted the most comprehensive, strict and thorough prevention and control measures. It has been basically blocked, and the control of the Lihan Channel has been lifted, which has created favorable conditions for comprehensive and detailed review and revision of the epidemic situation data. Information on epidemic situations involving diagnosis and death should be reported in a timely manner and published in an open, transparent, and realistic manner. In the early stage of the epidemic, due to insufficient capacity for admission and treatment, a small number of medical institutions failed to connect with the disease prevention and control information system in a timely manner, the hospital was overloaded, and medical staff were busy with treatment. Objectively, there were late reports, missed reports, and false positives. According to Article 38, Paragraph 4 of the Law of the People ’s Republic of China on the Prevention and Control of Infectious Diseases, “Publicity information should be timely and accurate”, and Article 25, Paragraph 3, “Public Health Emergency Response Regulations” It should be timely, accurate and comprehensive ", Article 19 of the" Regulations on the Implementation of the Statistics Law of the People's Republic of China "" In case of incomplete statistical data or obvious errors, the statistical investigation object shall be supplemented or corrected according to law "," Registration of Population Death Information Management "Regulation (Trial)" Article 14 "Medical and health institutions should establish a data revision system", Article 15 "Medical and health institutions should establish a data comparison and verification system" and other regulations, the number of confirmed cases of new coronary pneumonia in the city 3. Correct the number of confirmed cases of death.

2. How does the revision of the number of newly diagnosed cases of new coronary pneumonia and the number of deaths of confirmed cases in Wuhan be carried out?

Answer: The Municipal Epidemic Prevention and Control Command attaches great importance to the correction of the number of confirmed cases and deaths of new cases of pneumonitis. Based on the principle of being responsible for history, the people, and the deceased, it insists on seeking truth from facts and actively making corrections. In late March 2020, an epidemic-related big data and epidemiological investigation team was set up to recruit special personnel from the municipal health, disease control, public security, civil affairs, judicial, and statistical departments to form special classes to make full use of the city ’s epidemic prevention. Control big data information system, municipal funeral information system, municipal medical administration medical management new coronary pneumonia information system and municipal new coronary pneumonia virus nucleic acid detection system, online comparison, deduplication and completion of confirmed cases and death cases of new coronary pneumonia; line In accordance with the requirements of full coverage and no omissions, all data of all epidemic-related locations are collected, including hot clinics, hospitals, shelters, isolation points, epidemic-affected communities, and prisons and pension institutions under the jurisdiction of public security, judicial, civil affairs and other departments. In special places, all personal information of all cases is collected, and each person is checked and checked through medical institutions, street communities, grassroots police stations, patients' units and family members to ensure that each case is accurate and each data is objective and true.

3. After the revised number of confirmed cases of new coronary pneumonia in Wuhan, what changes have occurred in the data?

Answer: As of 24:00 on April 16th, the original announced that the city's confirmed cases are 50008 cases, because some patients have been across districts and visited multiple hospitals, resulting in the reduction of 217 cases of repeated card applications; The 542 cases of past cases that have not been announced in time should be increased, and the actual cumulative confirmed cases should be revised to 50333 cases.

4. After the number of deaths of newly diagnosed cases of new coronary pneumonia in Wuhan is revised, what changes have occurred in the data?

Answer: As of 24:00 on April 16th, the original announced that there were 2579 confirmed deaths in our city. Among them, 164 cases of confirmed cases with repeated card registrations and other cases that are not new coronary pneumonia should be reduced; deaths without hospitalization cannot be reported for disease control A total of 1454 confirmed cases of information systems and some medical institutions that reported late or missed reports should be added. The actual cumulative number of diagnosed cases should be revised to 3869.

5. What is the significance of correcting the number of confirmed cases and deaths of new cases of pneumonitis in Wuhan?

Answer: Life safety and good health are the most basic needs and the most common wishes of the people. Behind the epidemic situation data are the lives and health of the people, and the credibility of the government. Correcting the number of confirmed cases and deaths of new cases of pneumonitis in a timely manner is not only conducive to safeguarding the rights of the people, scientific decision-making for epidemic prevention and control, but also a response to social concerns and respect for every life.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

It translated for me its a bit long winded but essentially deaths being reported at the time were mainly deaths in hospitals and also that hospitals were overloaded at the time and so some deaths were reported late.

It also it says some medical institutions failed to connect with the reporting system in a timely manner.

We are spending a lot of time though focusing on whether the number of reported deaths in other countries are correct which is what both the US and UK governments would prefer rather than focusing on our own numbers.

You can always look for someone else to blame for a situation but most countries had chances to do thing differently, had other choices that could have been made and didn't make them.

Also right now we have a number of choices to be made about how we leave this quarantined lockdown and how each country handles that will be on us. We need to stop looking for ways to assign blame to external actors all the time.

Once this Pandemic is under control maybe then it would be right to ask some hard question of China as to what changes it will make to the control of wet markets to stop this type of thing happening in the future, but in reality a pandemic like this is probably a once in a lifetime event.

Maybe it make countries look at the global supply system in a different way but as long as price is king and are markets are based upon consumerism i doubt it.

[dreammanor]

Once this Pandemic is under control maybe then it would be right to ask some hard question of China as to what changes it will make to the control of wet markets to stop this type of thing happening in the future,

A month ago, China had enacted laws: (1) a total ban on wildlife trading (2) a ban on eating wild animals (with a specific list). Today, the Wuhan Municipal Government has formulated regulations on waste classification management.

In addition, judging from the information I got, the virus cannot be surely originated in Wuhan. It is very likely that the virus was inadvertently brought into Wuhan during the Wuhan Military Games in October 2019, and the virus carriers were asymptomatic at the time.

but in reality a pandemic like this is probably a once in a lifetime event.

No, the epidemic is now pandemic every few years:

SARS in 2003
H1N1 in 2009
Ebola in 2014
MERS in 2015
COVID in 2019

[FunkyDexter]

Yeah that's how it reads to me. Basically they're acknowledging the imperfections in their reporting systems and methodologies rather than admitting to any sort of cover up. I'm inclined to take them at their word on this and I suspect we'll see similar refactoring from other countries but I will say that the article is pretty one sided and could be read as propaganda. Either way, you can expect to see this get weaponised for political purposes over the coming days because...

We are spending a lot of time though focusing on whether the number of reported deaths in other countries are correct which is what both the US and UK governments would prefer rather than focusing on our own numbers.

^that.

No, the epidemic is now pandemic every few years:

Pandemics, yes, but a pandemic on this scale probably is once in a lifetime. SARS, Ebola, MERS... none of them even came close.

[dreammanor]

We are spending a lot of time though focusing on whether the number of reported deaths in other countries are correct which is what both the US and UK governments would prefer rather than focusing on our own numbers.

There is no such sentence in China's official reports.

[TysonLPrice]

Yeah that's how it reads to me. Basically they're acknowledging the imperfections in their reporting systems and methodologies rather than admitting to any sort of cover up. I'm inclined to take them at their word on this and I suspect we'll see similar refactoring from other countries but I will say that the article is pretty one sided and could be read as propaganda. Either way, you can expect to see this get weaponised for political purposes over the coming days because...
^that.

Pandemics, yes, but a pandemic on this scale probably is once in a lifetime. SARS, Ebola, MERS... none of them even came close.

You left out AIDS...it is estimated 32 million people have died from that virus albeit it has been around for quite a while.

[dreammanor]

Pandemics, yes, but a pandemic on this scale probably is once in a lifetime. SARS, Ebola, MERS... none of them even came close.

Maybe 6 months later, I could share my analysis and judgment with you.

[TysonLPrice]

Sen. Mitt Romney, the sole Republican who voted to convict President Donald Trump in his impeachment trial, was the only GOP senator not invited to serve on the president's new panel to advise on reopening the country during the corona virus pandemic. Of the 53 Senate Republicans, 52 now serve in the "Opening Up America Again Congressional Group," which even includes a dozen Senate Democrats – but not Romney.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ce/5147883002/

Trump is such a small petty man...

[Shaggy Hiker]

There is no such sentence in China's official reports.

Yeah, the quote that FD used was from the post #549 by NSA. It's not any part of China, official or otherwise. It's commentary on how some politicians are reacting, especially in the US.

[Shaggy Hiker]

You guys talking about the Great Pumpkin? His big ole Pumpkin Head is always entertaining. Luckily I was born with perfect proportions. what's happened since my birth I don't want to talk about. lol

I looked more like a pumpkin when I was born. Not much light up in there, so I had just applied that "Trump Brand" spray tan, when the curtain went up. Imagine my embarrassment. Well, I guess I'd have to, as well, as I don't remember it. Everything was a blur back then.

[Shaggy Hiker]

The whole discussion around where the virus came from is just an exercise in blame shifting. There are millions, if not billions, of viruses in the world. The VAST majority of them pose not even the slightest threat to us. I recently read that our immune systems might encounter around a million a day. Viruses that go after dust mites, bacteria, or turtles, likely wouldn't affect us in any way. They wouldn't be able to latch onto cells, wouldn't do anything if they did, and would likely be swept up by the immune system before they even got a chance to try.

Unfortunately, things aren't static. Some mutation changes something such that the virus CAN infect us, and there we go. This can happen anywhere and at any time, and probably will. Everybody want's to pin the blame on somebody, but that's nonsense. China wants to blame the military games solely because it would mean that it didn't come from them. Various groups want to blame a virology lab, probably because it makes an otherwise random event seem predictable.

The simple fact remains that there are LOADS of viruses out there, and they are changing all the time. Even COVID has changed enough, already, that different lineages can be traced within individual cities, let alone between countries. With that rate of change happening, the chances that one of the millions of existing viruses would change just enough to go from not infecting people to infecting people is virtually certain given enough time. Did it happen in China? Did it happen in a bat? Did it happen on a rat? The only people who really care are those who don't want to be blamed for what already happened. The more important question is, what will we do when it happens the next time? China responded much better this time than with SARS. The west did NOT respond very well, but SARS was pretty much a dud in the west. China will do even better next time, and the west had better, as well.

[FunkyDexter]

Did it happen in a bat? Did it happen on a rat?

Have you been reading Green Eggs and Ham?

I agree that discussion around where it started is just blame shifting and/or politics. I think some discussion around how various bodies have responded once it was becoming known is valid though.

I feel the Chinese government was pretty transparent (though some early mistakes at a local level are worthy of criticism) and continues to be but it's hard to be 100% sure. The recent anouncement of increased deaths is interesting but strikes me as a nation attempting to be transparent as new information emerges. It's possible they've covered some stuff up but I doubt it because they're containment appears to have been remarkably good... so what would they have to gain.

Similarly, I believe the WHO have been remarkably candid in their dissemination of information. About the only criticism I can level at them was their early declaration that there was no evidence of human to human transmission but that was accurate at the time and they corrected it less than a week later when new, contradictory evidence came to light.

I think I've made my feelings about how other bodies have behaved pretty clear and there isn't much to add but to summarise: Trump did nothing is clearly blame shifting like crazy at this point and I feel the UK government has responded in a reasonable if imperfect way.

[Shaggy Hiker]

New York has also increased reported deaths, so they've done the same as China. As I noted earlier, some recent analysis suggests that official death tolls tend to be considerably low, at first. This is essentially due to the official death toll just including those deaths plainly attributable to the cause, while those deaths that are not certain for any reason are left out. Frankly, I think this is a pretty responsible way to record deaths, especially when a country/region/state goes back and re-examines the totals after the fact, as both China and New York are doing.