Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
I think it fits the US better than most. After all, Churchill DID say we'd do the right thing...eventually. So, it wasn't necessarily a compliment, it just wasn't totally an insult. Not all countries would (or could) get around to doing the right thing. I would assume that it was a quote from relatively early in WW II, where GB really needed US industry. Churchill felt that we'd eventually be there, we'd just take a while to get there. If that's the case, then he was right.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I not at that point yet. I still believe a large majority of Americans (even Republicans ) want and believe in our constitution. But what the hell do I know, these last 4yrs has made it clear to me that I don't know squat.
With barely a wimper Putin is changing Russia's constitution to allow him to be president way beyond the constitution. China's XI set himself up for life, Turkey's Eradogan banned and arrested Opposition not related to the coup and is not going anywhere soon. These are recent events.
The republicans have ignored and are complicit in an eroding of checks and balances by Trump. They overlook all his transgressions in fear of retaliation. I'm definitely not a conspiracy kind of guy, I feel weird posting this, and I pin my hopes on our citizenship. But look at what the citizenship is tolerating just today? It makes me fear our democracy is at risk.
Last edited by TysonLPrice; Apr 8th, 2020 at 07:27 PM.
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Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Your democracy is always at risk, but I don't feel it's in danger. It requires constant vigilance to defend and Trump has certainly been doing his best to erode it but you're at the top of the slippery slope, not half way down it. It's going to take at least one more Trumpian figure to push you down it I think. Mind you, we should all have learned about exponential progressions recently so... maybe.
I think your democratic structures are way more robust than either China or Turkey - not even in the same league. Russia was approaching a solid democracy through the 90s and 00s so is more comparable to the US but it was still really a fledgling. You have a democracy that has stood for three and a half centuries.
But I do think you should be taking recent experiences into account and taking a long hard look at those structures, considering whether they still function in the way they were intended (pretty sure they don't) and how to fix or replace them. I personally think that Trump has eroded them as never before (and, yes, I think the GOP has been complicit) but I also heard plenty of accusations of presidential overreach under Obama and I suspect there was some substance to them. I've been hearing those calls since I really became aware of US politics under Clinton.
Your politics has been becoming more and more partisan for as long I can remember and it's not healthy anymore. That's where you're current danger comes from because the system is no longer geared towards the good of the people and is increasingly geared solely toward ensuring the other party gets shut out. That's the chink in your democratic armour that bad actors can insert themselves into.
Now he is doing that and in fact since we have locked down i am happy generally with how the government has acted, it was what they did before lockdown that i feel was lacking.
There I think you're probably right. If we separate "since the lockdown" from "before the lockdown" I feel like they've handled the former well, the latter... not so much.
I'll be honest, I'm a lot less genned up on circumstances before the lockdown and I still feel we took the decision at about the right time (I agree there were calls to lockdown earlier but there were as many to stay open - those felt more credible to me at the time but it's hard to judge). But what I find really troubling is just how far behind the curve we still are in terms of testing, personal equipment and general preparedness. The stand out thing for me is that every time I see a politician challenged on why we're not doing more testing, they never answer - it just defers to "we're prioritising health workers". Nobody's answering the fundamental question of why we're having to prioritise and I suspect that the answer lies in failing to prepare before this hit.
I sort of feel like there may be geo-political elements at play as well - we haven't exactly been making ourselves popular with our international partners over the last few years and I do wonder whether that has put us at the back of some critical queues. That's very hard to verify but it does niggle at me.
Last edited by FunkyDexter; Apr 9th, 2020 at 03:14 AM.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
In the UK there are lots of different things, but they don't cover every person/business. eg: Anyone who had a job at the end of February but can't do it now (such as people who work in clothes shops) can be furloughed (temporarily laid off) and the government gives 80% of their pay - no good for people who had a job starting in March. Anyone self employed for more than a year gets nearly 80% of their average pay for the last 3 years - no good for those of us who weren't earning enough a year ago to be in the tax system at the time.
It's not a perfect system, but as an independent finance expert (who advises the public) put it "they've created systems in a matter of days that would normally take 10 years to build, so there will be gaps". As it is likely to be a fairly short-term thing, combined with our usual benefits system it should make sure almost everyone is OK, and that most people who had a job before will still have one.
How are things in your country?
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
There I think you're probably right. If we separate "since the lockdown" from "before the lockdown" I feel like they've handled the former well, the latter... not so much.
I'll be honest, I'm a lot less genned up on circumstances before the lockdown and I still feel we took the decision at about the right time (I agree there were calls to lockdown earlier but there were as many to stay open - those felt more credible to me at the time but it's hard to judge). But what I find really troubling is just how far behind the curve we still are in terms of testing, personal equipment and general preparedness. ...
I agree with that. In terms of the testing etc, that is basically down to long-term strategies that we have had different to other countries (eg: Germany has much more of all the relevant equipment on standby, and many more test labs)... we were apparently planning to start catching up next year, but I suspect we'll be accelerating that massively now.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by dee-u
During this lockdown, does your government provides some assistance to the affected families especially those who are unable to go to work?
In the US a lot of things like that are already in place like unemployment insurance. The eligibility for it varies from state to state and in most cases you had to have been working and laid off from no fault of your own. The government augmented how much you get and lowered the restrictions to collect it.
The government is also throwing vast amounts of money for small business loans and various bailouts across the spectrum. They are also meeting currently to put out another large package to help business. And as is typical with our politics they are fighting about who should get what.
There will be lots of people that slip through the net though.
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Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
I'm a contractor who pays themselves through dividends so I've been explicitly excluded from any support by the government. Not a problem at the moment as I've been able to carry on working from home but my main client have furloughed large parts of the business. If that spreads to the part I support I'm royally screwed.
I wouldn't normally mind but the way I usually support myself through troubled times is that I'm a landlord. I have a house in Southampton I rent out as a whole unit and one in Cardiff that I rent out the individual rooms in. Two of my tenants (who are recent graduates) have asked to be let out of their tenancies early as they're back living with their parents. It would seem like a douche move to say no at a time like this so I've let them but there's no chance of finding replacement tenants so that's straight up lost income (probably about £5k). The remaining tenants are covering the mortgage but not much more so my safety net's pretty much gone.
As long as my main client keeps me on I'm absolutely fine but I'm becoming increasingly aware that my situation's fragile.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
You're correct. Some of the reports I saw used some slightly misleading language (e.g. they were "optimistic because he was breathing unaided" and that he had "had oxygen" - which isn't quite the same as being on a ventilator) and I passed my misunderstanding on. The news I'm seeing is cautiously optimistic though.
I hope that news is right. While I may not like his politics I think he's a great character and has been a pretty good leader over the last couple of weeks. I hope he pulls through.
On a side note, Trump has taken to blaming the WHO for this for being too "China-centric" and is threatening to withhold funding. Just What?!
I spoke to soon about Trump backing off...his surrogates are pushing that WHO is in the back pocket of China and they were colluding to protect them. My guess is they are supporting the moron by saying he is right that WHO funding needs cut. They tend to come out of the woodwork to support his idiocy just to save face for him.
I could live with that...maybe we could bow like the Japanese. He also mentioned that he thinks that would dramatically reduce the "normal" flu spread. Any suggestions other than bowing? Maybe we could snap both fingers at once. I saw one link where the Vulcan way was mentioned:
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Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Ugh, when this started there was a whole thing about touching elbows or shins. It's bloody stupid in my opinion. OK, you don't want to shake hands with. I can take that and I'm not offended. But don't subject me to some weird masonic ritual. It just makes you look like a tit.
From a purely rational perspective we probably shouldn't shake hands. In that regard he's correct. But there's a thousand stupid things that we do because we're gregarious, tactile creatures. I don't want to live in a world that's so unremittingly rational that I can't hug my mum. The fact that I'm a terrible son should be reason enough.
Last edited by FunkyDexter; Apr 9th, 2020 at 11:18 AM.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Aside from that, a moratorium on handshakes is pretty much nuts. Sure, handshakes can spread germs, but so can sex, and he's not suggesting a moratorium on that.
Sure, that's an extreme example, but others could be made, such as sports, concerts, and plenty of others. Humans WILL contact other humans, so trying to ban all contact is pretty crazy. After all, you don't randomly shake hands...well, except for politicians, I suppose. Hand shakes are fairly scripted affairs restricted to certain circumstances. We could come up with some alternative greeting for THOSE particular situations, but they are only one of many in which contact is made with other humans, and we can't come up with alternatives for most of those others, nor do we really want to.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Seems like Illinois is trying to warn their citizens a bit more, via more specifics.
Prior to a few days ago, all you can find about cases in your local area was county numbers, unless you lived in Chicago (which is huge anyway). Well counties can contain dozens of towns and cities. So the numbers were kinda surreal in a sense.
I noticed yesterday that Illinois is now identifying numbers by zip code if that zip code has 6+ cases. Better than nothing for those that want to know more. In my case, I now know my zip code as 17 cases. Does that help me? A bit, if family, friends, or co-workers were in denial about cases within their immediate community, that goes away. Of those 17 cases, obviously the state knows about them, but they don't know 100% for sure of everyone those 17 may have infected in the local community. Within our county and adjacent ones, we are seeing a spike. About two weeks ago, our county had about a dozen cases, now it's over 60.
Insomnia is just a byproduct of, "It can't be done"
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by LaVolpe
Seems like Illinois is trying to warn their citizens a bit more, via more specifics.
Prior to a few days ago, all you can find about cases in your local area was county numbers, unless you lived in Chicago (which is huge anyway). Well counties can contain dozens of towns and cities. So the numbers were kinda surreal in a sense.
I noticed yesterday that Illinois is now identifying numbers by zip code if that zip code has 6+ cases. Better than nothing for those that want to know more. In my case, I now know my zip code as 17 cases. Does that help me? A bit, if family, friends, or co-workers were in denial about cases within their immediate community, that goes away. Of those 17 cases, obviously the state knows about them, but they don't know 100% for sure of everyone those 17 may have infected in the local community. Within our county and adjacent ones, we are seeing a spike. About two weeks ago, our county had about a dozen cases, now it's over 60.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by LaVolpe
Seems like Illinois is trying to warn their citizens a bit more, via more specifics.
Prior to a few days ago, all you can find about cases in your local area was county numbers, unless you lived in Chicago (which is huge anyway). Well counties can contain dozens of towns and cities. So the numbers were kinda surreal in a sense.
I noticed yesterday that Illinois is now identifying numbers by zip code if that zip code has 6+ cases. Better than nothing for those that want to know more. In my case, I now know my zip code as 17 cases. Does that help me? A bit, if family, friends, or co-workers were in denial about cases within their immediate community, that goes away. Of those 17 cases, obviously the state knows about them, but they don't know 100% for sure of everyone those 17 may have infected in the local community. Within our county and adjacent ones, we are seeing a spike. About two weeks ago, our county had about a dozen cases, now it's over 60.
They did the same here... they publish the numbers by both county and by zip ... I'm not sure how that helps... I guess it's an attempt to fine-tune where the local hot spots are. When I look at our local cases by zip, the "hot zips" ... are no surprise.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Aside from that, a moratorium on handshakes is pretty much nuts. Sure, handshakes can spread germs, but so can sex, and he's not suggesting a moratorium on that.
I'm pretty sure I couldn't have sex as many times in a day as I could shake hands but I"m willing to help in the clinical trials of your theory.
I think Fauci is right that hand shakes do contribute to the spread of the flu. I'd say the hand is the most likely body part to spread the flu, other than the mouth. Personally I'm all for banning hand shakes but not for that reason. My hands don't open wide enough for a proper hand shake so it is always an awkward situation. I love the fist bump, I can do a proper fist bump.
I don't know if the WHO has been doing a good job or not but I do know their performance is not why Trump is saying these thing. He always blames others for his failures. Been doing that long before he became president.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
I know which zip code I'm in, but I don't know the bounds of the zip code, so that wouldn't really help much. The best I'd be able to say is that N people in my zip code are sick and I'm not one of them.
Trump is gearing up to shift the blame onto the governors.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Trump is gearing up to shift the blame onto the governors.
Seems to me that the shoe fits. Unlike China, our govt can't just lock down a city or state with a stroke of a pen. Gonna need a lot more than that. So governors make decisions for their states. The people decide to abide by those decisions or not and the governor's administration enforces those decisions.
I am no Trump lover and I wouldn't care which party resided in the oval office at this point in time. But if blame for spikes in a state are to be made, it should be placed at the head of the state where the buck stops. If blame for not being better prepared is to be placed, place it on decades of administrations in all levels of governments.
Everyone has an opinion and that happens to be mine.
Insomnia is just a byproduct of, "It can't be done"
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by LaVolpe
Seems to me that the shoe fits. Unlike China, our govt can't just lock down a city or state with a stroke of a pen. Gonna need a lot more than that. So governors make decisions for their states. The people decide to abide by those decisions or not and the governor's administration enforces those decisions.
I am no Trump lover and I wouldn't care which party resided in the oval office at this point in time. But if blame for spikes in a state are to be made, it should be placed at the head of the state where the buck stops. If blame for not being better prepared is to be placed, place it on decades of administrations in all levels of governments.
Everyone has an opinion and that happens to be mine.
I agree that each state has a major responsibility. But so does the Federal Government. They will have access to the most current and detailed intelligence on the subject and the greatest access to agencies designed for these situations. This puts them in a leadership role. Many states took action way before our president would even acknowledge the need ("it's a hoax") and way before any national guidelines were recommended. As you say we all have opinions so mine would be that instead of providing leadership our president has mainly been lying ("Anyone who wants a test can get a test"), ducking responsibility and blaming others.
I'm lucky, I live in California and our governor responded quickly. Louisiana and Florida continued with mass gatherings, some states still don't have a restricted movement policy. The strange thing is, I have a sister in La. and she thinks the governor is doing a great job. When I asked about continuing with the Mardi Gras she said it wasn't his fault, he didn't know better. It makes me scratch my head. Maybe it's just dandruff.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Well, that you are buying into the "it's a hoax" line (even though that was not said in the context of corona virus), was all that needed to be said to understand where you place the blame. Sounds alot like the anti-Obama group taking "you didn't build that" out of context.
Insomnia is just a byproduct of, "It can't be done"
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by LaVolpe
Well, that you are buying into the "it's a hoax" line (even though that was not said in the context of corona virus), was all that needed to be said to understand where you place the blame. Sounds alot like the anti-Obama group taking "you didn't build that" out of context.
The actual words are "And this is their new hoax". How you interpret that is subjective. I interpreted it to mean the Dems are blowing the seriousness of the Coronavirus out of proportion, and this is their new hoax. However you want to interpret it, I thought I made it clear what my opinion is.
As you say we all have opinions so mine would be that instead of providing leadership our president has mainly been lying ("Anyone who wants a test can get a test"), ducking responsibility and blaming others.
Don't know why you would need to judge me on a subjective quote. Be better to judge me on my stated opinion.
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Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Let's provide a few quotations from Dr Scott Jensen's site shall we:-
"We believe in drawing upon the power of natural, wholesome, traditional treatments"
"We also believe that the connection between the mind and the body should be honored when creating wellness protocols."
I reckon Dr Scott Jensen and Barry from Wetherspoons would be great mates.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
The most recent edition of The Economist cited some studies now being done that suggest the number of deaths is considerably higher than what is being reported. This comes from a couple different lines of reasoning. One is based on the idea that a death is attributed to the virus if the person was known to have the virus, and it caused the death. That leaves out people who died before being tested. Now that genetic analysis suggests that the virus was prevalent in NY about a month before the first reported case, that's fairly relevant.
The other source of death is a rise due to un-attributed deaths. Some regions in the EU show a considerable increase in the death rate between last March and this March, but the number of COVID deaths is just a small fraction of that. Of the remaining increase, which in some cases is twice the number attributed to COVID, a portion will be undiagnosed COVID fatalities, while some others will be deaths that were not directly caused by COVID, but were caused by the concentration of resources on COVID cases, and away from others.
So, the death rate does appear to be an undercount of some extent. Those studies suggested that the actual death rate might be around twice the reported level, though they do note that if you look at the change in death rates in a small enough area, normal fluctuations will confound the results.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
One is based on the idea that a death is attributed to the virus if the person was known to have the virus, and it caused the death. That leaves out people who died before being tested
Yeah, that has to be playing a significant role. I have no facts, just a hunch that in some states/countries they are making a effort to under count virus deaths for political reasons. Maybe to minimize the blow back for bad decisions or to tout how great of job they've done.
I still don't see how India only has 229 virus deaths. they say they've done 177,000+ tests. Not many for a country of over a billion people but still enough that 229 is an amazing number.
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Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Just in case you missed it, Jensen is asserting that were overcounting deaths... because fear is a means to government control. Draw your own conclusions on that.
Last edited by FunkyDexter; Apr 10th, 2020 at 02:30 PM.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
I didn't bother watching it. We have enough loons (not the feathered kind, though some of ours OUGHT to be feathered). We have a sheriff who asked the governor to bring the legislature back to session to debate some story out of a Florida organic general store owner that says that we have been misled and there is no need for the stay at home order. I'm not quite sure why an organic general store owner should be privy to such knowledge, but if you know northern Idaho, there really isn't anything surprising there.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Just in case you missed it, Jensen is asserting that were overcounting deaths... because fear is a means to government control. Draw your own conclusions on that.
lol, Didn't watch the video. I'd have to agree that fear is a means of government control. Been happening throughout history. Don't think it applies in this situation. You know maybe that would be a fun project, being stuck at home, why not see how many different conspiracy theories you can come up with. It shouldn't be too hard to find some type of justifications.
Here's a start, Bigfoot is patient zero. Now it time to do the research.
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
lol, Didn't watch the video. I'd have to agree that fear is a means of government control. Been happening throughout history. Don't think it applies in this situation. You know maybe that would be a fun project, being stuck at home, why not see how many different conspiracy theories you can come up with. It shouldn't be too hard to find some type of justifications.
Here's a start, Bigfoot is patient zero. Now it time to do the research.
Here's one..
Trump blames WHO for getting coronavirus pandemic wrong, threatens to withhold funding
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Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Well, yeah. But Trump is blaming the WHO and is threatening to withhold funding.
And that despite the WHO providing the best data available all the way down the line and sound advice based on that data. As opposed to, ooh, I don't know, leaving a cruise ship full of people stranded at sea because he didn't like what it would do to the data and offering the sage advice that we could all go to church for Easter.
Calling him out on that isn't political point scoring. It's holding to account someone whose own cynical political expediency endangers the lives of thousands.
… so... yeah.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter - Winston Churchill
Hadoop actually sounds more like the way they greet each other in Yorkshire - Inferrd
Re: Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.
Originally Posted by dilettante
Sheesh, using a vast human tragedy to further cynical political goals? So shameful.
And then there's Trump.
My God...that is what Trump does every night when he should be in charge of the pandemic. He rants on and on about the democrats, lies over and over again about his handling of the crisis, and constantly deflects about his inaction in the beginning.
Last night's nation wide address was more of a republican campaign stop than anything else. He put together a video timeline, at tax payer expense, detailing how he reacted. Guess what, most of February was missing. When a reporter called him out on that he called her "disgraceful".
I don't know of anyone, including myself, more than Trump, that makes this political.
Last edited by TysonLPrice; Apr 14th, 2020 at 08:22 AM.
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
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