what would it take to...

[Oafo]

... make a game? Can someone put together a list of programs that you would need to make a 2D based game like Kingdom Under Fire or Diablo 2? Thanks.

[Zaei]

Not just programs but...

About a year, year and half(preferably more) of programming experience in the language of choice
Team of about 10 people
PhotoShop, or Paint Shop Pro

Number one is the biggest. If you dont know how to program (well) you are sunk. This includes being able to structure the code to make it extensible and re-usable, as well as fast. You must know how to work in a team, as, for a game of the size you are thinking, you are going to be programming with at least one other person. You must have good communication skills, to let other people know what must be done, what they are doing well, etc. You must be willing to complete the project once you start, and your team members must also be dedicated, or the project may not go anywhere. I am the programmer on Times Of War (you can check us out in the Communication Area), and trust me, There is a LOT of work that must be done. Map Editors must be made, the scripting language must be created, the file packages, the rendering code, the music and sound code, the multi-player code, all of that must be put together in such a way as to not jumble and tangle the code.

I don't mean to scare you, but even if making games seems easy, it is not. There is a lot of stuff that needs to get done before you can even start to program the game itself.

One other thing. You will NEED a good writer. I don't know where TOW would be without Jorj.

Z.

[Jotaf98]

Yeah, have a look at Starcraft for example: the credits list is huge, read it to get an idea of it
I think they had more than one writer, they wrote the story (in the manual - I think I read it 10 times ), in-game story & events.

[Oafo]

You think I don't know that making a game is hard? HA! I know it takes a long time, all I was asking was for you to list programs it takes to make a 2D game, not some long lecture about how hard it is to make one. I know it takes more than 1 program to make a game, I've read lists that other people have put together. You assume that I am the one making it... what if I'm just the one to go out and buy the needed software and not have anything else to do with the programming section of a game? This is not the case, but don't assume things please.

"Can someone put together a list of programs that you would need to make a 2D based game like Kingdom Under Fire or Diablo 2? Thanks." ~Oafo 3:16

[Zaknafein]

I'm makeing an RPG with me as the only programmer, writer, animator, project leader, and a graphic designer as the only other team member. Although not on par with games put out by big companies i'd wager the character graphics a quite a bit better then most and the game play is more fun then many games I've played, and I only have 1 year of programming experiance well acutally 1 year minus 3 days or so.

Here is a list of what together we have used.

Visual Basic 6
Photoshop 6
3d Studio MaxBryce 5
Microsoft Paint (it might sound remedial but it gets the job done)
As well as some 3d weapon/armor ect that I brought and grant derivitive copywrites to the person who creates something like a non-3d image from them as in me.

and I belive thats it. Although possibly some other graphic design tools that I don't know about.

[Zaei]

What do you need?
C/C++ compiler
Some painting program (optional, you could go and steal someone elses art)

Thats about it. So, yeah, you could make a game with one program.

Z.

[Zaknafein]

Yeah you could steal someone elses art but I wouldn't recomend distributing it. Even art thats free for download can be re-distributed without permission even if your game is freeware.

For awhile I was using sound effects I extracted from Ice Wind Dale and music I downloaded from mp3.com but after doing some research I discovered that you can get into a lot of trouble redistributing that stuff even if you don't make money off it. If you were just planning on making a totally free game though, I suppose you could anonomysly donate it to some abandonware sites and leave the blame with them.

[MoMad]

ahahahaha lol.

actually you COULD also use VB for ur game it will be helpfull for many things.,, but if you start with VC++ then finish with VC++, if you start with VB, well you can either finish with VB or add some VC++ stuff to it... like make a dll and include all ur functions... it takes only 1 single program to make a game?? maybe, have you tried flash games?? flash lets create the art/graphics, import sounds, and its programmable so it could be basically an all-in one. But you need more than just that... you need music, soundeffects, graphics, story lines, etc,... and much much more...

I wanted to make a game (and i still do) but i dont want to do it all by myself because I want to make it big. And i am very impatient, i cant start something and work on it for so long... but if i get help, ill have a reason to work on it for much longer.

[Jotaf98]

Yeah, MoMad is right

You should also add a music maker and probably a sound recorder and a program to enhance the sounds to Zaknafein's list.
You may also have to make your own C++ DLL for the special effects or they'll get too slow on old computers.
Or you could use the one me and MoMad are working on

[Zaei]

Using VB for a "game like Kingdom Under Fire or Diablo 2" will probably be a bad idea. Sure you can go and use DDraw for the graphics, but logic and AI tax even C++. Then again, Diablo 2 was probably the worst game I have ever played.

Z.

[Jotaf98]

I disagree

You can make good games in VB. The only thing which you should NOT do in VB is anything related to graphics manipulation like special effects. That's why we can make C++ DLLs
And developing a game in VB is a lot easier than in C++. You don't need a team of professional programmers.

Btw, the only problem with Diablo II was the whole interface, which was very flawed. Clicking around isn't a good method, and gets boring

The best interface in my opinion is keyboard for the movement and special stuff, and the mouse to fire and manipulate objects (pick them up, do sword movements, whatever).

And it also works quite well in 2D games, look at Abuse for example. You move around with the arrow keys and click with the mouse to fire in that direction.

[kedaman]

OOP is da #1 tool for making a game, therefore C++ is a natural choise as it provides a very wide range of OOP features, which you can pick from when building a complex game.

[Zaknafein]

I have to jump on board with the people who said Diablo 2 sucked. I sucked on multiple levels, one it was boreing, just running around and hacking stuff with one move is mildly fun for awhile but not for very long. Two it took forever to come out and when it did it was totally flawed, you had to download a patch for it immediately after buying it. The programming skills at Blizzard seem to leave something to be desired both in speed and quality. Even with the patch I experianced many crashes and at the time I had a slower computer with 32 megs or ram which I don't think they should have claimed to support, because every time I killed a boss the computer froze for like 4 mins trying to do the death sequence. They should have included an option to turn that crap off. As a side note Warcraft 3 a game now in production for many years doesn't look that good. I HATE you Blizzard entertainment!!!

heheheh

[Jotaf98]

Com'on, they made Starcraft and Warcraft II

And you never played Warcraft III

[Zaei]

I would agree that Warcraft 2 was that last good game to come from the depths of Blizzard. Starcraft was just more of the same, in a different settings. Warcraft 3 looked great when I saw the preview in PC Gamer about 2 years ago. Then they changed the game completly, and removed everything that was.... um.... original. Big deal, its 3d. And now, they are working on a MMORPG. Yeah, it looks pretty, they have great game trailers, but they need some new ideas, instead of just stealing ideas from previous games.

And yeah, kedaman, I agree that OOP is a great tool for game programming, but it isnt required. Most games to date have been done in C, or other non-OO language. Myself, I dont know what I would do without C++.

Z.

[MoMad]

Hey hey hey, take it easy there. Diablo did NOT suck. Diablo 2 does NOT suck. Warcraft does NOT suck. So what you have a dinosour computer, the game wasnt made for (extinct) dinosour computers man. It was made for at least 64MB ram, not 32 and infact 128MB is prefered as it uses 2D graphics like we breathe oxygen. Anyways, I agree that after a while the game gets boring... but what about the multiplayer feature?

Also, I totally agree with whomever said to use OOP to do a game because unless you want to make a game that only has one thing to do... eg. run in a straight line untill you reach the end without doing anything... you SHOULD use OOP. period.

VB is usefull for the tools part, as it helps you save precious debugging time. Also, it is best that you make ur own level editor, Ai editor, character editor, etc... those sort of things. Also, skins are awesome.

About the DX special Effects DLL, it should be complete anytime soon (with full source code ofcourse , both VB and C++ versions of dll, so u can see why C++ is prefered. )

L8trz,
-MoMad

[Zaknafein]

The thing is they should not have made the CLAIM that THEY supported 32 megs of ram because the game was increadibly unstable. I would never make a game and try to sell it claiming that it ran on 32 megs of ram if it was that prone to crashes and malfunctions. And a pentium 2 266 with 32 megs of ram was not a "Dinosaur computer" A year ago.

Fun games such as Age of Empires 2 or Baldur's Gate ran just great which speaks highly of the skill involved in their evolution and design. Baldur's Gate 2 even let you customize the way the game ran so if you had a slower computer you could get the best performace (and neither of those two ever crashed on me). Bizzard throws that all aside and blows their buget on big time cinematics while the game goes down the toilet. To me they are the finest example of how not to run a software gaming company.

[Zaei]

I have 128 megs of ram, and never actually played the single player mode, and yes, the game still blew large donkey's n**s (excuse me). There are several reasons I say this.

1. There was a stroyline that you followed. In Diablo 1 (a far superior game), there was a basic storyline, but you were barely ever aware of it. You talked to NPCs to buy stuff, or get items IDed. Thats about it. In Diablo 2, they created this large complex story line. It moved the game out of the fun-because-its-mindless category.

2. It was dumbed down. If you were playing Diablo 1 for the first time, in the dark, late at night, you got scared. Diablo 2 made you think of Toys R Us. The only scary part was the packet loss.

3. The stress test was meaningless. This doesnt actually have to do with the game, but the company. I played the stress test for many a sleepless night. It was great fun. Why? It was mindless. No storyline, just killing. See point 2.
If anyone got the game when it released, and played MP, you would know how laggy, and unreliable it was. Same with the stress test. Then it got better. But they didn't learn from that. Crappy Blizzard.

4. The patches. Nerfing is a bad thing. It is avoided through extensive QA. Where did those 3 years go, Blizzard?

On the subject of BG, it was a superbly crafted game. They managed, very well, to integrate the AD&D core rules into a realtime RPG.

Z.

[Zaei]

Allow me to edit my above post. Diablo was the last good game to come from Blizzard. Forgot it came after War2.

War2 BNet edition does not count for this discussion, as it was only a re-release.

Z.

[MoMad]

Hahahahaha, toys r us. Actually, i didnt like diablo 2 either, the thing is they just overdid it.

I loved Diablo anyways...

[Motoxpro]

Visual Basic
A Paint Program
maybe diectx

[JSG]

well i am writing a game, well not exactly diablo 2 games still need art....what do you think is the best software for making graphics?

[Jotaf98]

If you wanna go for 3D graphics, you should use 3D Studio Max, Lightwave or something like that. If you wanna use just 2D graphics, I think you should use Paint Shop Pro

Btw I think that Diablo II's only problem was the lack of originality. Playing it got boring after a while. And Starcraft ROCKS and I'll shoot down anyone that says the contrary

[Sastraxi]

Oh I agree totally... and I've also realized why people don't like to play games like AOK often enough.. which is why we plan to bring ToW to the public

[Jotaf98]

Heh... so what is it? And what about if you're wrong? (I'm just curious)

[Sastraxi]

Starcraft has only a tiny little bit of micromanagement... (meaning that you never have to rush around and look at EVERYTHING to make sure it hasnt screwed up), games like AOK and such require tedious, huge amounts of it.

[Motoxpro]

i use photoshop

[Jotaf98]

Motoxpro: Yes, I heard a lot about Photoshop too

Sas: AoK doesn't have that many micromanagement... you have military formations, farm queues and the "find idle villager" button

[MoMad]

Sastraxi, AOK is awesome... they have an awesomely incredible AI, and you can do all sorts of things with just 1 click, or better yet, everything has a shortcut-key and is customizable. Its great!! but out of the subject, My favorite Action game has to be Unreal Tournament... that game has (in my opinion) the BEST AI A GAME COULD EVER HAVE. You cant tell wether its humans playing agianst you or if computer is playing against you, thats how good it is.

[MoMad]

BTW: Photoshop is the BEST. You can also use: Macromedia Fireworks

[Jotaf98]

MoMad is right - in both points

Yeah the only bot that has ever managed to match me ( ) - except for those lame bots that always make headshots - is UT's bot in Godlike skill

[Oafo]

I read something in a book that said to make the graphics 3D at first and make all of the character's motions while it's easy to manipulate him/her, then turn em into 2D sprites. So, what I can gather from all this "I hate D2!" (which I agree), is...

3D Studio Max (downloaded from Morpheus)
Photoshop 6.5 (downloaded from Morpheus)
VB/C++ (stolen from a friend)

That it? Damn, I thought I was gonna have to go out and buy something, but that would be too harsh, right?

[Zaknafein]

Thats a common practice, if your going to do true 3d graphics of any quality then the system requirements are going to go way up. AOK is a 2d game with 3d rendered sprites if it were 3d it wouldn't run so fast. The tecnique of rendering graphics in 3d then converting them to 2d sprites is one I'm using myself in my game.

[MoMad]

Yes exactly, thats the way it should be done, or you'll end up redrawing your character for every single state!!