End it now

[kedaman]

I am not proud of being human

My advice for you is to not jump to conclusions, there is only details on events, perspectives and ideas built on tinted information out there, let time alone tell, the real situation will get revealed in a couple of weeks, maybe month or even years, but not today.

My advice is not only to you but to the rest of humanity, if you have any fear you might feel better if you express yourself but you might just be part in developing the next series of incidents, keep it cool, be informed but passive.

[kovan]

great words, from a great man

[zmerlinz]

i totally agree, the main point is not to have a knee jerk reaction to all of this, but instead wait until we have all of the information, unfourtunatly life is not like this, so lets hope that Bush has got some intelligence and waits before he acts.

I am also very sad that people can actually rejoice over the fact that innocent people have been killed, the onl thing that all of these killings have shown to us, is that life is sacred and buy killing innocent people just proves how idiotic people can be.

[DWillems]

Well said. I tried to explain the same in the other thread.

Bush and his ministers hold the key though. Time will tell wether this key is for the door to Hell of the door to Salvation.

I'm curious to the data on the black boxes. I doubt if they will be found though ...

[zmerlinz]

i read on the bbc news site that the black boxes can't withstand great heat for a long while, so there is a good chance that the information in damaged

[DWillems]

pity ...

[nishantp]

Originally posted by DWillems
pity ...

Or the hijackers could have sabotaged them...

[thinktank]

The testing phase of a Blackbox {aka FLIGHT DATA RECORDER}
involves heating it to around 2000 C.

An Explosion could easily set off temperatures much greater than that.

[zmerlinz]

but they can't sustain tat temperature for long periods of time

[thinktank]

BTW ZMerlinz,
The image in your Signature is not linked.

use
[/b]][img]image url[/img]

[Guv]

To hell with being passive! This is war!

James Carter, the wuss president, was passive when our embassy was seized. He served notice on the Islamic world that America had no balls. Then because he had no stomach for an effective response, he made asses out of us with a low probability mission that ended in a fiasco.

This time, we should act decisively and violently. This is war, and due process should be suspended. Get any damn Islamic bas**rd that sounds like a terrorist. Hit them with rockets and everything else we have. We have excellent capabilities for retaliation, which is called for now.

Until absolutely necessary, do not use nuclear weapons, but do not promise to hold them back.

[zmerlinz]

Originally posted by thinktank
BTW ZMerlinz,
The image in your Signature is not linked.

use
] [/B]

i didnt know that you coud do that, check it out now, thanks

[kedaman]

Originally posted by Guv
To hell with being passive! This is war!

James Carter, the wuss president, was passive when our embassy was seized. He served notice on the Islamic world that America had no balls. Then because he had no stomach for an effective response, he made asses out of us with a low probability mission that ended in a fiasco.

This time, we should act decisively and violently. This is war, and due process should be suspended. Get any damn Islamic bas**rd that sounds like a terrorist. Hit them with rockets and everything else we have. We have excellent capabilities for retaliation, which is called for now.

Until absolutely necessary, do not use nuclear weapons, but do not promise to hold them back.

I am not asking the politicians to be passive, I am asking us, who are able to be passive, to be passive, and not to transform information around us and instead be critical towards it. If you support an upcoming war it's probably only because you're been provided the "right" information, at the other side we have the other "right" information.

[Beacon]

Thats alright keda coz i'm not human!

[SteveCRM]

technically you are part human since they found blood in your alcohol stream


sorry bad joke

[Planix]

This is about the most sensible thread I have seen.

The reality is that I have lost no one.

I am not an american.

But, I feel saddened and hurt by what has happened to those people.

It is obscene to use their deaths to justify a machismo "ass whupping" response.

All of us here can continue to hurt that those terrorists sowed by claiming moral righteousness to abuse and disrespect other people around us. In doing so, we don the garb of the terrorist.

The only respectful response to this tragedy is silence and prayer.

All my love.

[RSINGH]

agreed

[Ianpbaker]

Ked - if you were one of your fellow nordic blonde beauties, I would marry you and give you children, but as you are not I'll just say very well said

[SurfDemon]

Agreed (about the well said bit... not the marrying bit )

SD

[parksie]

I vote for Ked

[ghost ryder]

Originally posted by Guv
This time, we should act decisively and violently. This is war, and due process should be suspended. Get any damn Islamic bas**rd that sounds like a terrorist. Hit them with rockets and everything else we have. We have excellent capabilities for retaliation, which is called for now.

first of all, i agree with kedaman, well said

secondly guv, think before you speak, the FBI and CIA dont know that muslims did this, so how do you?? why are you criticising a whole religion just coz one wacko is linked with the atrocities (spelled wrongly im sure), no one accused christianity when hitler massacered the jews did they?? no. because they found out WHY he did it, he was nuts

whoever did this either has no religion, or has a twisted view of his/her religion which makes them think that massacering thousands of INNOCENT people is ok, it is not.

[Guv]

Ghost Ryder: While more evidence is required to take action, it seems to me to be clear that Islamics are behind this atrocity.

In the last 100 years, two cultures have endorsed Kamikaze methods. I do not think the Japanese are behind the attacks, so where else would you look for suicidal killers of innocent people?

The race is not always won by the fastest runner, and the battle is not always won by the fiercest warrior, but that is the way the smart money always bets.

If you had to bet on who planned these attacks, who you put your money on? Hindus from India? Russians? The US White supremacist nuts? Perhaps we should investigate the Chinese.

I think the odds are damn good that it was a group of Muslims based in an Islamic country. If I were running the investigation, I would put the best and the brightest to work on checking the Islamic countries, and assign a few journeymen to investigating other possibilities.

BTW: When there is war, due process is no longer applicable. That is for peace time application when dealing with ordinary citizens. I would not require proof beyond a reasonable doubt before going after terrorists. I would go after anybody who voiced approval of the attacks.

[ghost ryder]

firstly let me say, yes osama bin laden is a prime suspect, islam isnt
but he was a prime suspect when OKC occured, and it was a US citezen

but it APPEARS that it may have been arabs, as they found a car in boston airport with manual in arabic on how to fly a plane, and a Qu'ran.

so yes it may be muslims, it may be gambian midgets planting the Qu'ran and the arabic manual to frame the arabs, but really whoever it was is going to most likely hide behind their religion like cowards

[amitabh]

While the incident itself is tragic, I agree with the view that Ked gas taken. Instead of jumping to conclusions, its should be first coonclusivelyproved against somebody/organization. But in that case too, I don't think you can blame a particular communiyt as a whole. What has been done is not justiifed, but if we loosse our perspective, the perperators would have achieved half their aim.

[aknisely]

firstly let me say, yes osama bin laden is a prime suspect, islam isnt
but he was a prime suspect when OKC occured, and it was a US citezen

It's an entirely different situation now. Any idiot can drive a truck full of dynamite or deliver a package full of plastic to an office. This is a terrorist operation of the most massive scale, and likens only to the actions made by Arabic states and factions.

[kedaman]

Whether or not we bet the right suspects, kill the responsible enemies or go to war with responsible nation, doesn't seem to matter, the point is people will be ready to kill to canalize their anger, the mass will be acting under a single order whether a target is really identificated or generated.

Humans have always been killing machines, we act instinctively, strike back as we get struck, hate generated from misunderstandments resulting in deaths of innocents resulting in counterhate, infused with new misunderstandments resulting in further deaths of innocent victims, in a continously growing evil circle.

Our social systems doesn't allow this freely, that wouldn't last a moment, laws and moral rules restrict us from acting "naturally" but we are constantly under restrainment from our primitive actions to take over, what would happen if the system fails? The social system though encourage us to act unanimous, to group ourself to produce entities where the individuals are less vounerable and can act under protection of the entity while the entity as whole is able to take common actions effectively preserving the system. The mass will have faith in their leaders, thinking their actions are "right" and consider themself safe from being pointed as individuals. Socialisation is the result of natural selection, we've been evolved to enjoy being together rather than apart, since a society lasts. However only the strongest society will prevail, and as someone said earlier "let God sort them out", I would personally choose to say just natural selection, is a painful process.

I am not certain if this is correct into smallest detail, I am not the expert but it makes perfect sense to me. Democritos said that "it is bigger to think than to know"

In the modern society we don't aim to preserve those with the biggest guns, we aim to preserve those with the biggest brains, that is we are trying to hide the harsh primitive form of evolution and as well convert the friction of violence into competition instead, the amount of lives into currency. Apparently natural selection is behind this as well, but that still is not for sure, if the all our war starts and ends, we know what went wrong and why, the next generation that prevails might take millenias or millions of years. May the best system prevail.

The act of mass is against us now, people will choose sides, the right information will tie us together to not expose the individuals as well as be strong united. Fear and confusion of enraged individuals in situations like this will make them seek for protection under unified entities, taking faith in rightfullness of the masses choise to follow their standpoints.

I wouldn't be surprised further deaths of innocent victims based on our current situation, the complex machinery of our societies produce systematic and predictable results, in the long term the individual is meaningless while the weight of entities determine the net balance.

However we are individuals and we determine our individual fate. If you choose to act passive now, avoid political cohesion, the mass won't be unanimous, easily manipulated and controlled by individuals like ministers or presidents, forcing them to act as the mass expects, in this case buying time for more evidence to show up and more time to bring up ways to solve the problem without killing, the way that is our original ideal but is often forgotten in situations like this.

actions taken here in these forums can be divided into 2 mainly:
1. to inform everyone about further news
2. to point at possible candidates, flame each other and spread misinformation
I want you to stop doing the second and stay to the first as well as keep yourself critical to all new information.
Time will tell.

[nishantp]

Originally posted by ghost ryder


first of all, i agree with kedaman, well said

secondly guv, think before you speak, the FBI and CIA dont know that muslims did this, so how do you?? why are you criticising a whole religion just coz one wacko is linked with the atrocities (spelled wrongly im sure), no one accused christianity when hitler massacered the jews did they?? no. because they found out WHY he did it, he was nuts

whoever did this either has no religion, or has a twisted view of his/her religion which makes them think that massacering thousands of INNOCENT people is ok, it is not.

Your point is valid...the people who did this dont represent Muslims at large, but they do cause opinions to be formed in peoples minds (myself included). But one thing...are u sure Hitler was a Christian? hmmm....

[SurfDemon]

I was always taught that he was.

SD

[kovan]

Originally posted by aknisely
It's an entirely different situation now. Any idiot can drive a truck full of dynamite or deliver a package full of plastic to an office. This is a terrorist operation of the most massive scale, and likens only to the actions made by Arabic states and factions.

you like to think so
i still think its a jewish group

[kovan]

Originally posted by SurfDemon
I was always taught that he was.

SD

all i heard was that he was christian

[ghost ryder]

Originally posted by kovan


you like to think so
i still think its a jewish group

thats a theory i had, explain why u think it could be the jews

[beachbum]

hi Kedaman
i believe that as humans we can rise above base instincts in all but the most extreme circumstances. I don't believe in the view of society as a sort of controlling entity that stops us doing things that we really want to do like killing the neighbour for playing music too loud. We are intrinsic to the society. And while people can vent on issues like this we are at least safe in the knowledge that there are many good people amongst the general population.

I gather that you are not impressed by people venting their anger on this forum but i think that ppl should be allowed a time to express their best and worst emotions rather than ignore them or inhibit them. I doubt that anyone on this forum is seriously going to go to Afghanistan and kill a muslim and I know that much of the information is scant and biased but it is rather pessimistic to assume that ppl are robots that cannot think for themselves. From posts i have seen of yours, you are obviously very intelligent and maybe you feel a frustration with the stupidity of others. But i dont think the right approach is necessarily to despair at the state of humanity but rather to strive to add to it and to make it better.

Our symbols of this disaster should be people like the volunteers who are helping others rather than the people that are baying for blood.
Regards
Stuart

[kovan]

Originally posted by ghost ryder


thats a theory i had, explain why u think it could be the jews

[this is my opinion]
if you look out our history, jews have tried a lot to deter Islam, and muslims, they have killed more prophets then anyone
taking it further, they even tried to kill the last prophet

Dajjal's main followers will be jewish (prophecy)
and for dajjal to physically arrive, Islam must be at its weakest point

so what better way can Islam weaken? well when the world sees every muslim as a threat
and this has done more damage to Islam than anything else in history

AND last but not least
what better way can they give world something to look at in media while the SLOWLY and PAINFULLy kill inncoent palestinians

and another thing,
i highly DOUBT any SO CALLED muslim "terrorists" are capable of such act,
who control most of the world?

enough said

again above is my opinion
and WHO ever the "terrorists" are
i hope they are brought to justice VERY soon

[DerFarm]

Hitler was raised Catholic....of sorts. He turned (in some sense)
to Odinism during the 30's. He was all the way crazy, however.

Due process is NOT suspended during wartime. It is often
ignored, that is to say, more often than in peace time, and the
courts are more lenient toward the gov't, but due process in and
of itself is not suspended.

It IS suspended during martial law....which is usually called by the
governor of the state (can the president even invoke martial
law????). It does, however, have a limited time span, varying by
action.....except in Texas where it lasts until the Indian Uprising is
completed (no joke!
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/txcon...ions/cn000400-
000700.html)

[5speed]

Well this is the most sensible thread out there, including the msn one. My only hope out of this is that we stop being so ignorant and realize terroism happens DAILY, not to this extent as much, but added up what we have experienced is nothing. Maybe Americans will now realize that most country's hate us. Some have valid reasons, some do not. I visited Europe this summer, and there was graffitti and posters all over, granted I was in Italy a week after the g-8 summit. The bottom line is, we are hated by many. We come into countrys (good or bad) and try to control them (good or bad). I would hope mostly for good, but you do have those blunders (Bosnia and such)
If you really want to get the "whole picture" of what is going on, turn off the tv since every channel is the same thing. Go to other country's newspaper's websites. Its a different view, some talk mainly on the palastines rejoicing. Also think about how China and Russia are becoming such good friends, making business deals together, and why they are? Both hate the US?
Enough said, hopefully this will awaken everyone that we are very far from peace

[kedaman]

Hi Stuart

Originally posted by beachbum
hi Kedaman
i believe that as humans we can rise above base instincts in all but the most extreme circumstances. I don't believe in the view of society as a sort of controlling entity that stops us doing things that we really want to do like killing the neighbour for playing music too loud.

I can see that. The society is definitely not perfect, but we all have our ideals.

We are intrinsic to the society. And while people can vent on issues like this we are at least safe in the knowledge that there are many good people amongst the general population.

I gather that you are not impressed by people venting their anger on this forum but i think that ppl should be allowed a time to express their best and worst emotions rather than ignore them or inhibit them. I doubt that anyone on this forum is seriously going to go to Afghanistan and kill a muslim and I know that much of the information is scant and biased but it is rather pessimistic to assume that ppl are robots that cannot think for themselves. From posts i have seen of yours, you are obviously very intelligent and maybe you feel a frustration with the stupidity of others.

I respect every single human, their feelings towards anyone and anything, I respect those who lost their loved ones, I even respect the terrorist that killed them, I think we are too narrowminded and see that everyone has the right to live a good life everyone starting equal, because only those rich people in US, that believe in freedom, and I say rich as the whole nation are high above the average standard, think all people world wide have equal base resources to emerge their wealth from. That doesn't proove to be in most of US either. They cannot live up to their own ideal.

By living in US you kill a muslim as US kills a muslim, although it is the US soldier that kills the muslim, the nation ordered him to kill it and you follow the nation, a double indirection, but still this is valid, the whole nation share the responsibility of the death of the muslim. IF you don't think this is true, you should step out from the mass, because US kills and have always killed innocent people.

You say that people have more freedom, and yes we have noticably more freedom than say under WWII but that is actually so narrowminded you won't believe what I think. US believe in freedom but they can't fullfill their ideal whilst the rest of the world is around as well as resources aren't enough. I underestimate the behavour of the individual deliberately, and bring the weight of masses to conduct the acts of nations, not only over a couple of years, not only over lifetimes, but in much larger scales where you can count the amount of lives in such amount a million here or a million there wouldn't have any effect at all. Actually it's not the amount of lives, amount of souls, but the amount of conceptual commitment, the spirit of a common will, or a common action, that counts, there's no single set unit you elaborate these with but with the number of their weight of them spread out on a certain amount of people, will conduct the act as soon as the weight can shout down the other. If 1000 people with average commitment to an idea can't win 100 people with strong commitment to another idea, although the first will take place as the result of democracy, the second will counter the effect in the long term and probably mix out, in proportions determined by these weights. A individual here that performs some key actions will actually just hold a strong weight on himself while the mass in general have only small bits of weight per individual. You'd be surprised if you saw how much the acts of human societies resemble chemical reactions.

I don't say people are robots, I say that individuals aren't black or white, blue or green, or anything else simple. We are extreemly fine mixtures of elemetal ideas, and as these elementals flexibly transplant and transform troughout individuals it clearly shows that individuals is just a medium for the elementals to be hosted at. It's much like the gene pool theory except billions time more flexible, the more tighter society, the more interactions will encounter, and therefore the more important the study of elementals is.

I don't blame the individual, the stupidness of the individuals for not being able to act freely in such scope, for just being hosts to widely spread elemental ideas, because you clearly cannot say which host is going to carry which element. But I feel very very sorry for those individuals that has to take the burden of a elemental causing extreeme pain in their lives. That's why I repsect lives, whether they are muslims or hijackers or presidents or whatever.

Other than that you aimed on me not accepting the emotional expressions. I very much do, but if I counter the hate by developing a new idea, we can create a mix that will slow down the progress of a fast reaction, (I can't really give a good time scale, it might take months, maybe decades) buying time for thoughts of reason to be transplanted and releasing the deaths, pain and all kinds of friction resulted in near future conflicts due to the emotional wave produced now.

[quote]
But i dont think the right approach is necessarily to despair at the state of humanity but rather to strive to add to it and to make it better.

Our symbols of this disaster should be people like the volunteers who are helping others rather than the people that are baying for blood.
Regards
Stuart
[/qiote]
Again, I am not here to despair humanity, I am here to save individuals.
Your argument is good, but shortsighted, I pretty much agree with you there actually but we are not mutually exclusive. Those of us who have this rage inside us, this extreeme hate towards something should get rid of it soon as possible, as discreet as possible, before it can transplant further. A good idea would be to stop mourning and feel the joy of life, that would consume the hate if not immediately, then at a pace good enough.


AND

YOU OTHERS CAN YOU PLEASE STOP DISCUSSING POLITICS IN HERE? There are other threads for that.

[kedaman]

Originally posted by 5speed
Well this is the most sensible thread out there, including the msn one. My only hope out of this is that we stop being so ignorant and realize terroism happens DAILY, not to this extent as much, but added up what we have experienced is nothing. Maybe Americans will now realize that most country's hate us. Some have valid reasons, some do not. I visited Europe this summer, and there was graffitti and posters all over, granted I was in Italy a week after the g-8 summit. The bottom line is, we are hated by many. We come into countrys (good or bad) and try to control them (good or bad). I would hope mostly for good, but you do have those blunders (Bosnia and such)
If you really want to get the "whole picture" of what is going on, turn off the tv since every channel is the same thing. Go to other country's newspaper's websites. Its a different view, some talk mainly on the palastines rejoicing. Also think about how China and Russia are becoming such good friends, making business deals together, and why they are? Both hate the US?
Enough said, hopefully this will awaken everyone that we are very far from peace

We are here to fight for peace right? World wide peace, not only between nations but the extermination of hate between individuals trough complete understanment. Although it's seemingly impossible, we can contribute for something that might happen in the next century!!

[Planix]

Hi

Just a quick note to say that I agree with the intelligent ones in this thread.

Promoting more hatred with silly speculation about "whodunnit" is not intelligent.

Grief is a complex emotional event made up of shock and numbness, disbelief, sadness, anger, rage, depression, denial. All these emotions tend to swirl around inside of you and you are on a roller coaster of emotional responses moment to moment, day to day.

Expression of your feelings is good. Getting it out is good. Feeling the feelings truthfully is good. Only when you have done that will your frontal lobes be able to process the mass of data streaming up from the limbic system to provide cognitive and rational understandings of the trauma.

So... the posts which express rage and hurt are doing you good. At some stage your frontal lobes will kick in and we can all get back to the silly post race.

On a personal note... I believe that each of us has a direct responsibility for the spiritual development of humanity as a whole. When we allow ourselves to be consumed by hatred and dsirespect we allow the SQ(spirituality quotient) to drop by some determinable number of points. When we acknowledge and recognise the true human spirit of heroism, bravery, and love then we increase the SQ.

Giving up. Despair for our fellow human beings also leads to a diminution of SQ's. So... don't give up. Know that you are a noble and capable being and the global SQ will rise by 1 point.

The task of this thread should be to increase the global SQ by at least 120 points before it ends.

All the best.

[kedaman]

SQ? I've heard that somewhere, or think I saw a book but that was quite a while ago. Can you elaborate a bit what it is, how does it differ/relate from/to IQ?

[Kzin]

Originally posted by kedaman
I am not proud of being human

Kedaman - it depends on what you saw there.

I saw hundreds of New Yorkers behaving in the most brave and gallant way imaginable - emergency workers giving their lives to save their fellow citizens - ordinary people giving their blood because there was nothing else they could give.

I also saw a right wing president not known for restraint in actions abroad resolved to follow a due and lawful process - and countries throughout the world pulling together to help America solve this the decent way - through lawful process - not random mass murder.

(And of course we all saw that its a good thing some members of this forum don't have any power anywhere that counts!).