Evoulution

**FantastichenEin** · Aug 17th, 2001, 07:32 AM

Do you support the theory of evoulution.
If not, what are your reasons (scientific or religious)

I believe in Evoulution - I also believe there is a god, however I don't believe in the bible.

denniswrenn · Aug 17th, 2001, 08:54 AM

I beleive there is a God, but I don't beleive in religion. I'm not really sure if I beleive in the bible. Same thing with evolution.

**flufke** · Aug 17th, 2001, 09:05 AM

I just believe that there is something more, but no God....

**thinktank** · Aug 17th, 2001, 02:28 PM

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**filburt1** · Aug 17th, 2001, 02:29 PM

I remember determining that Christianity is a pyramid scheme once. I would type it all again, but only if someone gets down on their knees (back off Kovan!

) and begs.

**simonm** · Aug 21st, 2001, 11:10 AM

Evolution is the best theory we have on how life came about to it's present state.

No serious scientists would claim that evolution is wrong. OK, some scientiest claim that there are explanatory gaps in the theory but they would hardly advocate discounting it altogether.

The theory of evolution is so old now that we shouldn't have to keep defending a good explanation that has no good rivals. The creationist theory is not really an explanation attall, rather it is merely an abdication of the necessity to find a valid explanation. i.e. God created everything "just like that" so don't bother trying to understand it.

Fine, if creationists don't want to understand life (and the developement of life) then fair enough. But don't get in the way of the rest of mankind developing their understanding of it.

**kedaman** · Aug 21st, 2001, 11:21 AM

Evolution is much more than what you all think

**CiberTHuG** · Aug 21st, 2001, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by kedaman
Evolution is much more than what you all think

*thinks* Nah, evolution is just about what I think.

**Nucleus** · Aug 22nd, 2001, 08:59 PM

You guys trying to do each other's heads in?

Keep going, I am enjoying it

**fbokker** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 03:19 AM

Someone said, he believes in evolution. Well, maybe there is some truth about it. After all, it is in fact only a scientific theory – not a proven fact. So if you assume it to be the truth, it is in fact nothing else than faith. There are strong indications that the theory of Evolution is true, but however there are also key issues that have no satisfying explanation yet. Till now there has not come up any other sound explanation about the origin of life, so we stick to the best we have.
In fact, some scientists are already taking evolution as a natural law – which it is not (at least yet!). The consequence of this is that scientific findings automatically are interpreted in a way that makes them fit to the idea of evolution. And research is conducted focussed on finding further arguments for evolution rather than the neutral approach demanded by the scientific method.
I’ve read some of the creationist claims. First of all, they are definitely not science. They always argue beginning with: “The bible tells us, it was like this …”. This means that all their arguments are based on the assumption that the bible is truth in the scientific sense. But in fact, the bible is something, you can only believe in. You cannot conduct experiments that proof the bible’s claims. One of the most “striking” arguments is that the world is only 5000 years old, because if you calculate time from Adam and Eve to Jesus (the bible is supposed to have a full genealogy of this), this is the result. So please, why the hell should God create all these fossils, sediments, ancient polar ice etc.? – Just to confuse scientists and lead the world to believe that the bible’s claim has to be wrong?

**Bonker Gudd** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 03:28 AM

Evolution is a fact.

Ha ha, what are you all on about?

God created this World, but God did not create the Bible.

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 03:30 AM

a fact is a belief

**simonm** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 03:34 AM

Someone said, he believes in evolution. Well, maybe there is some truth about it. After all, it is in fact only a scientific theory – not a proven fact. So if you assume it to be the truth, it is in fact nothing else than faith.

Look, I appreciate what you're saying here but you argument could well be extended to any scientific theory we hold today.

Science is not about discovering truth. It is about providing explanations that enable us to understand the world. Some explanations are better than others (in the sense that they help us understand the world better) but none are perfect (or should even expected to be). New explanations are always comming along that offer even greater understanding of the world but even they will one day be surpassed.

Currently, evolution provides the best explanation to life and until someone can come up with a better one, the majority of the scientific community will continue to accept it.

There are "explanatory gaps" in evolutionary theory but many of these cease to be when you look at evolution in a wider sense and in conjunction with other scientific theories (such as Popper's theory of knowlege and the Turing conjecture on computation). Much of the new thought, when evolution is considered in the light of other theories, is beginning to suggest that life (and evolution) is one of the fundamental laws that make up the fabric of reality as we know it.

Only time will tell, I guess, but while those who critisise evolution for it's explanatory gaps continue (as ever) to do so, the principles of evolution are being used on a practical level in many fields, and, suffice to say, it works.

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 03:38 AM

That's what information is for

**FATBOYPEE** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 03:44 AM

Ok. Politics aside, Religion(s) aside, just for one minute here, even if the theory of evolution is proven. to it's N'th degree, one question will always remain, that being:

So where did it all come from ? Did the beginnings of everything just er, 'pop up' overnight ??

Whatever your beliefs as to the origins of life, try to answer that question first......

Pee

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 03:46 AM

It's probably unimportant

nullus · Aug 23rd, 2001, 04:31 AM

it all came from an energy to matter conversion (reverse of an atomic bomb). as far as i know, energy can't be created or destroyed, so that energy has always existed. that's my take on it anyway.

**FATBOYPEE** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 04:41 AM

Ok, then,
Where did 'existence' come from ??

nullus · Aug 23rd, 2001, 04:46 AM

well, this energy to matter conversion must have created microbes or DNA or whatever, which began evolving and eventually evolved in to life.

**FATBOYPEE** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 04:55 AM

But where did this energy come from then ? If it's always existed, how did it get there/here?

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 04:56 AM

Why does it need to get there/here?

nullus · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:07 AM

yeah, it never "arrived", it's just always been there/here.

**FATBOYPEE** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:16 AM

If you beleive in Evolution theory, then the word 'evolution' is key ? to change from something to something ?

Therefore, you must begin with something.

How then, can you begin with something that has always existed ?

The fact that (taking your premise of energy for a moment) you say this 'energy' has always existed means that evolution by definition cannot be correct, if it always existed then did it not evolve into energy from something else ?

That aside, what made the energy in the first place ? Surely it has an origin ?

I dont think it is sufficient to say that this energy always existed.

1. We dont know that
2. It defies the very logic of the Evolution theory.

Pee

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:18 AM

Why do you need to begin something?

nullus · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:22 AM

evolution is a physical thing. it's the process of adapting to an environment so that a species can survive. energy has no need to evolve as it can't be destroyed.

**HarryW** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:30 AM

If the open universe theory is true (ie. there was a beginning to everything), existence is not defined before that beginning. So it didn't 'exist' before the big bang, because there is no 'before the big bang'.

If the closed universe theory is true, then time has always existed and all the energy in the universe has always existed. There was no beginning and there will be no end.

If you think the closed universe and the open universe threories are both wrong, I'd like to hear alternatives =)

**FATBOYPEE** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:35 AM

Nullus:

But my point is simple. If you're looking to explain the origins of Life by means of a physical process then we must surely desire to know where it began for that physical process to be validated.

Using such an infinite as 'Energy has always existed' is to me saying 'i don't know where 'energy' came from. It does not answer the primary question of the beginnings of evolution must be proved in order to ratify evolution as primary means of creation.

Kedaman:

Why do you have to begin with something ????

How else, considering Evolution, does one Evolve ? If you cannot trace your beginnings, at what point do you say the evolution chain began ?

Is'nt that the whole point ?

the 'bcoz it is' or 'bcoz it is' theory of existence is as much a starting point of faith as anything else.

If you don't wish to pursue your origins by way of evolution and accept that you exist at this point and 'probably' by way of evolution then you are making a conscious step from into accepting you do not know. That is my point. Evolution, like any other theory on the creation of life is a belief.

Pee

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:35 AM

Go read mine, it's under onthissite/The philosopher/My universe on my homepage

**simonm** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:36 AM

Fatboypee

Your logic is flawed.

If you beleive in Evolution theory, then the word 'evolution' is key ? to change from something to something ?

Therefore, you must begin with something.

How then, can you begin with something that has always existed ?

The second step that states that we must begin with something is not derived from the first step. Energy may always have existed and be constantly changing form. Evolution is just the physical manifestation of this pertual flux.

But, I would say that it is likely that energy existed before life, life comming along and disappearing many times throughout the history of the universe.

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by FATBOYPEE

Kedaman:

Why do you have to begin with something ????

How else, considering Evolution, does one Evolve ? If you cannot trace your beginnings, at what point do you say the evolution chain began ?

Is'nt that the whole point ?

the 'bcoz it is' or 'bcoz it is' theory of existence is as much a starting point of faith as anything else.

If you don't wish to pursue your origins by way of evolution and accept that you exist at this point and 'probably' by way of evolution then you are making a conscious step from into accepting you do not know. That is my point. Evolution, like any other theory on the creation of life is a belief.

Pee

A theory is not a belief, a theory is a tool. I didn't imply I believe in evolution

**simonm** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:43 AM

Fatboypee

The purpose of evolutionary theory is not to explain how life came about in the first place. It is to explain how simple life forms developed into more and more complex life forms.

Another theory is needed to explain how life came into existance in the first place. The theory of evolution is not dependant on this because, although we don't know (for sure) how life happened, we know that we are here, and that simple life forms emerged much earlier than complex life forms. Even if it turned out that a God created the first single celled life forms, evolutionary theory is still valuble to explain how we (and other more complex life froms) came about subsequantly.

Incidentally, there are (tentative) theories that attempt to explain how life started. I am not particularly familiar with them but they are nothing to do with evolution.

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:47 AM

Simon
Does life need to happen?

**FATBOYPEE** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:49 AM

Actually....

I have no logic on this subject.
ALL I'M ASKING

is simply for somebody to prove to me that energy always existed. Prove to me the basis of your theory. It is not enough to say 'it's always been here' without proving how it got here in the first place.

Do that one small thing for me and I will beleive that evolution theory is true. If you cannot do that one smal lthing then I say to all who ascribe to evolution theory that evolution theory is not fact but a belief system like many others.

Pee

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:56 AM

That is too much to ask

**simonm** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:57 AM

Fatboypee
Did I not just exlain that evolutionary theory has nothing to do with how life got started in the beginning. It makes no difference whether energy always existed or it didn't.

Dismiss evolution if you like but can you come up with a better explanation? Can anyone?

**FATBOYPEE** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 05:58 AM

Currently, evolution provides the best explanation to life and until someone can come up with a better one, the majority of the scientific community will continue to accept it.

Somonm...
My question is tantamount to asking that particular question,

for those who say they have no belief system other than the scientific theory of evolution,
then evolution is not (as you point out) the theory of how life came about in the first place.

Energy does not 'just exist'.....

All I'm saying....

Good points on the evolution, dont really 'want' to believe it that way...scientific proof or no.....

Pee

**beachbum** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 06:00 AM

This is the real story...

**kedaman** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by simonm

Dismiss evolution if you like but can you come up with a better explanation? Can anyone?

I think I have

**FATBOYPEE** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 06:01 AM

SimonM

I was replying while you were replying, my post crossed with yours...

I hold much the same views as you appear to. The explanation you make of evolution is clear and concise. No issues whatsoever...

**Gary.Lowe** · Aug 23rd, 2001, 06:35 AM

Good film too

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