Does clone or fertilized egg have soul?

**Guv** · Aug 12th, 2001, 06:46 PM

This is a strange question for me to ask. As a non-mystic, I do not believe that anybody has a soul. However, I am curious about the beliefs of others.

If some scientist manages to clone a human being, would the clone have a soul? As of today, the creation of a clone requires implanting an ovum with a full complement of DNA in a woman’s uterus resulting in pregnancy and ultimately childbirth.

In the future, it might be possible to build an artificial uterus-like environment. Would this affect your answer to the question?

Suppose biochemistry advances allowed the creation of DNA from basic chemicals, allowing for the creation of an artificial human being, indistinguishable from a natural creation. Would the artificial human being have a soul?

Does a fertilized egg have a soul? If not, when does the soul come into existence? At birth? When the embryo has measurable brain waves?

What about the Star Trek transporter, which I do not believe will ever exist? If such a device were possible, it could make as many copies of an individual as you wanted to make. All would consider themselves to be equivalent to the original, although it is obvious that they would differ among themselves as they accumulated new and different life experiences. If it could happen, would each have a soul? This question might be a reason for a religious person to disbelieve the possibility of such a device. BTW: The Star Trek device seems to destroy the original and create a remotely located copy, rather than transporting her/him

**filburt1** · Aug 12th, 2001, 06:51 PM

What the hell is up with these religious threads all of a sudden?

**kedaman** · Aug 12th, 2001, 07:30 PM

Every time you use the startrek transporter you will die and a copy of you (a machine) will be instantiated. Funny. After some 50 years most of the people would be non-humans, that is those that have used a startrek transporter or is descendant of them.

As a non-mystic I refuse to believe in anything at all. I do however give a name to myself. "I think therefore I am" and that who I am is the soul. I don't nessesarily take it as generated by my physical me.

I think two theories are reasonable:
1. Everything that is intelligent is also conscious, that is have a soul. I define intelligent as something that can process information and information is more or less axiomatic. If there's anything that says information is connected to physical reality, then that is intelligence.
2. Everything you think exists is a projection of your mind.

So, when it comes to this issue. I think #1 needs to be applied.
The fertilized egg, the human clone, the transporter copy will all have a soul, at least if you consider other humans to have souls.
However isn't it useless, if someone acts like if it has a soul, the effect is equal with that person having a soul. The piece of information "x have a soul" is useless, since "x acts like if it has a soul" is applied all the time. The ability to act as if it has a soul shouldn't be mixed with have a soul.

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:15 PM

it basically depends on your religion, the general idea of the christian religion is that it is wrong anyways so people shouldn't have to worry. My personal view is that it would, because supposedly all living beings are created with souls. This could potentially be a very touchy subject, especially on these boards with visitors from so many social, ethical, and religous backgrounds. You will probably get for example Jesus4u in here arguing about the same point as me, but then you could get my satanic 2nd personality

in here arguing that we will all burn in hell anyways so why would it matter. I can't wait to check this tommorrows though, guarantee it will rack up many posts.

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:40 PM

only humans and jinn have a soul
if you ask me that is

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:43 PM

ok, then would you consider a cloned being a being. Technically they are living, but they are living in a false sort of pretense.

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:46 PM

we havent successfuly cloned a human
so there for no clone has a soul

but if we do someday
it will have a soul

cloning is not like ZAP and done
technically it goes through the same process if a woman were to naturally have a baby

**kedaman** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by kovan
cloning is not like ZAP and done
technically it goes through the same process if a woman were to naturally have a baby

How do you know that?

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:51 PM

because a clone needs to grow inside the right environment,
stomach of the mother, or something smiliar

i highly doubt we can just zap n done

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:52 PM

well he is right, but the person if they were to be cloned i agree would have a soul, but what if they genetically altered the clone before it was injected into the uterus?? In belief of my religion the doctors/scientists would go to hell for trying to replace god, and the child would be forgiven for the original sin. The problem with the baptismal sacrement in this case is the fact that the original sin (sex) was not done. Do the sacraments have to be re-written to include alteration of human genes??

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:55 PM

but as technology advances it could be as easy as zap and go. Scientists must first develop the womb like environment that can give the clone its nutrients during the growth process. Doing this would allow them to give the baby extra nutrients such as calcium that would overall help extend the life of the clone. I am hesitant to call "it" a baby because im not really sure what i should believe on this subject.

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:55 PM

it doesnt really matter if its in the uterus or not

it will still have a soul even if it never was in the uterus, uterus doesnt give soul

accordign to my belief
man is capable of everything, however, it is still god that GIVES the soul

**kedaman** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:58 PM

Skitchen8, why is sex a sin?

One thing is for sure, your religion is about to get outdated

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by kovan
it doesnt really matter if its in the uterus or not

it will still have a soul even if it never was in the uterus, uterus doesnt give soul

accordign to my belief
man is capable of everything, however, it is still god that GIVES the soul

yes, but with a genetically engineered baby the humans are in control. This is us trying to play god, and i do believe the soul will still be placed in the body, i think that overall the scientists/doctors will be forced to repent or live in hell for trying to be god. The other side of that argument is of course that they can "build" babies that will not have any diseases, and will supposedly be geneticaly perfect. just out of curiosity what religion are you kovan??

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by kedaman
Skitchen8, why is sex a sin?

One thing is for sure, your religion is about to get outdated

hey, its not my fault. The christian religion has the baptismal sacrament, where the child is clensed of the original sin of creation which is sex. Mary had birth to Jesus Christ simply because god had asked her to have his son.

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:03 PM

and please call me eric.

**kedaman** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:03 PM

I didn't accuse you. I don't understand why sex would be a sin. You didn't explain it to me either. Can you do it?

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:05 PM

but they arent playing "god"
they are merely using their knowledge

heeling someone from a sickness also was considered "playing" god back in history

most religions are about morality, and intentions
so if someone is able to "clone" a human, they are not playing god, so if God doesnt want to let these people do these things
God can always stop them..
it has a lot to do with how you look at the situation

personally i think we should discover new things, such as explore space, and go beyond this galaxy

i wish i was that guy that went to space for 20 mill
i jsut wanna SEE out there

oh ya to answer your q

I am Muslim, from the religion of Islam

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:06 PM

sex is not a sin
infact in my religion its a good thing (if done properly, under right circumstances..)

i know i wasnt asked
but i liked to answer hehehe

Eric
are you Deans brother?

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:08 PM

not really, i am 14 and not one of them people that will kill to get to church every sunday (im lucky if i go maybe 5 times a year). Though just as a theory from my demented mind it would be a sin becuase god is supposed to do the whole child creation thing, and man and woman should not have sex. There is a good chance that i am wrong, but like i said before you may want to wait till tomorrow when im sure jesus4u will be here, and he should be able to explain it all to you. Sorry i am no help.

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by kovan
sex is not a sin
infact in my religion its a good thing (if done properly, under right circumstances..)

i know i wasnt asked
but i liked to answer hehehe

Eric
are you Deans brother?

who is dean?? like i said there is a good chance that i am absolutely totally wrong in everything i said. Being up at 1 o'clock in the morning, having half a can of beer and 5 cans of pepsi isn't helping my though process any.

**kedaman** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:13 PM

Stop reproducing yourselves, god will do it for you, is that what you mean? God will though place a soul in each and one of the soulless babies that are born?

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:14 PM

kedaman
yes

**Skitchen8** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by kedaman
Stop reproducing yourselves, god will do it for you, is that what you mean? God will though place a soul in each and one of the soulless babies that are born?

agreed.. .the last thing we need is more of me

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:18 PM

hey Finish guy
are you athiest?
or do you have a cool religion in Finland that i dont know about

**kedaman** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:24 PM

Kovan
I don't believe, i think i stated that earlier, i'm not an Atheist either because Atheists believe there is no god.

Eric
I was talking about sex. Would that be more mixes of me&my partner? Does that mix have a soul if there was to be no God putting it in it?

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:27 PM

what dont you believe though, if you believe there is god
if you dont mind me asking

**kedaman** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:34 PM

Kovan
I think information is a tool. If that doesn't say anything to you, you can take it that I don't want to commit myself to a religion as you do.

**kovan** · Aug 12th, 2001, 09:52 PM

cool

**Nucleus** · Aug 12th, 2001, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Guv

What about the Star Trek transporter, which I do not believe will ever exist?

What is it that means the transporter will never be?

Everyday I send data half way around the world and it arrives there on most occasions without error and in a matter of seconds. The data goes through a process of modulation and demodulation, and if it travels over optic fibre cables, I think it travels at the speed of light (could be wrong about this though).

Following from such real world examples it seems intuitive that sending organic matter from one point to another be achievable in the future. I am not saying that it is possible, I am just interested in hearing your insights on this matter.

**kedaman** · Aug 13th, 2001, 07:45 AM

I don't care if it's going to be possible or not, but i think it's useless

**kovan** · Aug 13th, 2001, 11:24 AM

Kedaman

why do you think its useless?
imagine you can ZAP and are on mars?

not that we gonna live to see it
but i also think the possibility of that happening are VERY VER VERY small
however, i think it will be one of the greatest achievements if done

**kedaman** · Aug 13th, 2001, 04:45 PM

I just can so to speak see into the future, or whatever you can call it. But let's not talk about it.
The main thing that disturbs me about the startrek transporter is potential energy. If you could move any object from a to b then the net potential a-b could let you make a infinite source of energy and a infinite source of energy is a infinite source of matter or anything else for that matter.

**kovan** · Aug 13th, 2001, 04:56 PM

maybe i am kinda lost
but wasnt there rumor or perhaps it could have ben authentic
that somewhere in britian

using a LOT of energy, they were able to move a tooth pick from a to b?

according to what i heard about this
that based on how much energy it was required to just move the tooth pick
it will take us MANY MANY years to be able to do that with human

but then again, tooth pick and human are 2 different matters

i wouldnt certainly want my hand moved to my crotch when i am transported from a - b

**kedaman** · Aug 13th, 2001, 05:03 PM

We'd probably just Zap down all in the closest black hole then

**Guv** · Aug 13th, 2001, 06:10 PM

While not a religous person, I know a fair amount about theology.

I thought that the original sin was disobedience. Adam & Eve gained forbidden knowledge by eating fruit from a tree. God had told Adam that he could partake of anything (not sure about meat) but the fruit from that tree.

Prior to the fruit eating incident, god had commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, which seems to suggest that sex was okay, rather than being a sin.

BTW: Have any of you heard of Lilith, Adam's first wife? If you read Geneisis carefully, you will find an account of man and women being created on the sixth day. Later, Adam is described as being alone, after which Eve is created. This story line has given rise to a myth about Lilith being the first woman, and there are various stories about her and her descendants.

**Guv** · Aug 13th, 2001, 06:18 PM

No opinions posted about when the soul appears. Why not?

Perhaps, like me, none of you believe in the existence of a soul.

If you do believe, when do you think a person gets it?

When the ovum is fertilized?
When the embryo has brain waves?
When birth occurs?

**kovan** · Aug 13th, 2001, 07:02 PM

according to Islam
i could not find any reference to when the soul is entered into the body

i asked around some said It is the will of God, meaning God does it when he wants, during the embroy stages to birth

and one said 3 months

i couldnt confirm neither statements with reference
i will see if i cant find it

but in my opinion
if you are a believe of religion and god

then one would believe that God does it when he will

at least that is my opinion

**kedaman** · Aug 13th, 2001, 07:03 PM

Depends how you define "soul"
If there's any effect of something having a soul, it's that effect that is any use to refer to. What's the result of something having a soul?

**simonm** · Aug 14th, 2001, 08:00 AM

The religous people posting on this topic have suggested that at some point (exactly when is unknown), God gives a human being a soul.

There are two interesting quesitons that arise from this belief.

1) Is it only humans that have souls or do other life forms also have them?

2) What would a human (clone or otherwise) be lacking were it not imbued with a soul?

Thread: Does clone or fertilized egg have soul?

Thread Tools

Display

Does clone or fertilized egg have soul?

Re: Does clone or fertilized egg have soul?

Original sin?

What about the fertilized egg?

Soul

Posting Permissions