What if there was a NEW vb6

[jayinthe813]

I see this as an opportunity for any start up to become huge. Just the other day I saw a job posting from CHASE for a vb6 developer. I think the amount of users a ide/complier company will gain by supporting vb6 is worth millions if not billions.

This is probably because they have some legacy system that needs to be supported and they don't want to reinvest money to update it because it probably deals with maintenance or returns little ROI compared to migration costs. For important transactions in my industry (relative to banks), I have *ALWAYS* seen Mainframes used.

[axisdj]

Really? Then why did you go into so many threads both here and on the UserVoice pointing a link to a decompiler? I assumed you were doing that because you thought that people who used .NET or were considering .NET didn't know that it wrote to an intermediate language and would be freaked out when they discovered that it did. So, why DID you post all those threads? Were you really advocating that people steal code from their competitors? That would be low. I don't sell the software I write, and it is freely given away, but if I even borrow an interface design concept from another program in the same problem domain I cite them for their contribution (there are several people from this forum cited in comments in various programs I have written if they helped me out with pieces of code or suggestions on problems).

Having said that, I'd also add that cracking code has always been illegal/dodgy, but in many countries it isn't illegal in fact, even if it technically is by law. There may even be countries where it isn't against the law. Cracked copies of most major software is available and people buy/download those copies. Whether you steal commercial code, or circumvent/remove security, is a moral choice in the end. For code that is freely given, there is no legal restriction, but whether you claim you wrote it, or properly attribute it to the true author, is still a moral choice.

I do not advocate stealing code, but yes the reason I posted it is because to my complete surprise some .NET devs do not know their code is open for everybody to see.
I'm sorry, that is pure IGNORANCE, but sadly many people just accept what the MAN gives them, and does not question anything. That is what we(vb6) guys are up against, common discussion among corporate developers will say that vb6 devs are incompetent. Well, I disagree, we actually are highly analytical and for that very reason do not favor .NET.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Well, that's the problem, of course. I don't have a problem with you prefering the language you have always worked in. I would guess that you chose it for a reason, rather than picking one at random, so it is likely that you would prefer it. What drives me crazy with your posts is the passive-aggressive nature. At one point, in a different thread, you suggested that the reason people use .NET is because they don't care about what they write. Now you state that the reason you don't favor .NET is because you are highly analytical. For that statement to be true, it would mean that anybody who does favor .NET must not be highly analytical. Not that you'd say it directly, as that would take the passive part out of passive-aggressive.

So, now you've managed to call people who work in .NET lazy and not-analytical. I'm not quite sure what the opposite of analytical is, in this context, but irrational or illogical seem to be viable choices. Perhaps you can understand why a bunch of strangers who have spent decades coding get a bit offended when some other stranger comes in stating that nobody, other than himself and possibly other VB6 coders, is rational, ambitious, wise, or even intelligent. When you add in your irrational fears, such that you don't come across as well informed about what you are talking about, such as that silliness about the JIT, you become rather easy to dismiss....except that, like some annoying gadfly, you keep coming back with more.

Drop the passive-aggression. There are LOTS of people here that are as smart, or smarter, than you. There are lots of people here who own their own businesses. There are lots of people here who care as much as you about the quality of their code. There are also lots of people here who don't agree that any of your concerns regarding .NET are valid. If you prefer VB6, then you prefer VB6. That doesn't mean that everybody who disagrees with you is either lazy or stupid.

[jayinthe813]

I do not advocate stealing code, but yes the reason I posted it is because to my complete surprise some .NET devs do not know their code is open for everybody to see.
I'm sorry, that is pure IGNORANCE, but sadly many people just accept what the MAN gives them, and does not question anything. That is what we(vb6) guys are up against, common discussion among corporate developers will say that vb6 devs are incompetent. Well, I disagree, we actually are highly analytical and for that very reason do not favor .NET.

In my experience, I have not seen a corporation that will green light new development in old technology like VB6 because they view it as shooting themselves in the foot as in 10 years they absolutely might have to port it into something else. The big thing for my line of work is support. I develop internal business apps now. There is no worry about obfuscation of code or someone trying to steal code internally. Its all about getting from point A to point B and meeting the deliverable on time.

I will also disagree with your point on being more analytical because of a language choice. The word I think you meant to use is 'fanatical'. The language you choose is simply how you express yourself to the computer. This doesn't speak much to analytical skills. Every day I translate business requirements into results. I use .NET because in my environment now it makes the most sense but in my mind, it is only the tool I use to get to my destination. I could easily pick up another tool and get there if I so chose. Wait until your customers tell you one day that they want all of their data on the cloud, and they want more modern tools/features. If you do not think that day is coming then you are naive. You may be able now to strong-arm your customers into telling them what they they should have, but one day they will realize this as is the case at my current job. Units are now realizing developers have been doing what they know instead of what they CAN do.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Municipal and county government is the biggest category, with some state- and provincial-level work here and there (U.S. and Canada). The next most important customers are in mineral and petroleum surveying and forestry. Everything has been smaller "one off" jobs. The government work has changed with time and I do more training than programming because they like to hire cheap temporary help to handle the grunt work and support, mostly from overseas.

Ah that certainly explains it somewhat, you work providing software to sectors which, are either actively looking to save money on IT (Government) or are mining and distribution based (rather than service based) which have an easier time forcing a desktop move on there users.

If i owned a non service based company (so manufacturing for instance, or any business which does not rely on heavy word processor and email use) i would not use windows as a desktop as i could save my self a lot of money.

I work for a company that supplies Software to Lawyers and Barristers, Legal Secretaries are almost umbilically attached to Microsoft word and Outlook, and in the legal field in general Windows is very entrenched.

I will give you an example, i few years a go a worked for a Solicitors firm who were using the Groupwise Email system. The email system worked fine, we never had any problems with it, and we had 1 guy to look after it. The solicitors however didn't like it, in particular they didn't like the fact it didn't have the same calendar and meeting functionality as Outlook, actually the main problem they seemed to have with Groupwise was it wasn't Outlook.

Because of this the embarked on a £1,000,000 project to migrate our email servers and desktop clients to Outlook.

This took approximately 6 months or so, the hiring of 3 extra contractors, 2 extra permanent members of staff and went over budget, and missed its deadlines. Despite all this it was considered a success as at the end as they had Outlook.

We (the IT department) all thought they were completely mad, as essentially they spent well over £1,000,000 to get a better calendar and meeting organiser.

Windows 8 was just the last straw for the cities who have made the move.

Yes i can imagine, from the first moment i saw it i could see it was totally unsuitable for business use certainly in my sector,
Windows 8 adoption is pretty low amongst UK solicitors & barristers.

They were already unhappy with the support costs of Windows client and server systems which seem to require roughly three times as many "IT guys" and the lack of decent Windows-based kiosk and tablet systems didn't help matters. When Microsoft killed off Windows Mobile for WinPhone it didn't help either.

In many ways i agree with them, if i had a new business i would certainly look at alternative ways to run a cheap desktop through cheaper licencing deals, and newer desktop offerings, i may still use Windows in some circumstances it would just depend on the business.

My end customer however is not me and it is them that dictate what operating system i target, and they also demand a high level of integration with MS Office apps. So regardless of what i might do personally we use .Net because it fits my companies need as they sell software to solicitors & barristers.

Finally changing topics, i read the article you posted - 'Visual Basic 6.0: A giant more powerful than ever' and it contains this -

VB programmers do not particularly like VB. NET and don't like any other versions of VB after VB6. Why? VB6 is dependent on a single file, namely: msvbvm60.dll. On the other hand, VB .NET is dependent on the .NET Framework environment, which inhibits the individualism of the programmer and this is not consistent with the human nature.

which had me pissing myself laughing, I had no idea my work had inhibited my individualism !!!

i carried on reading and came across this -

Certain VB6 applications (compiled EXE's) are in conflict with some antivirus companies. The reasons behind this conflict are not yet known. VB6 is too strong and it has the most programmers, this may be a good reason for conflict

are you sure this is not an Article from the Onion?

[dilettante]

I'm pretty sure Windows 8 arose as an issue for my clients because Vista's bad press had scared them into staying on XP far too long. By the time Microsoft's 2014 sunset on XP support was looming even Windows 7 was getting harder to come by. With time some of Windows 8's rougher edges have been knocked off (even the Lucky Charms are supposed to go away in Windows 9) but their first attempts to roll out Windows 8 caused an uproar.

So in three years a lot has happened. Government discounts on Macs, the rise of Chrome/Chromium OS and Android as cheap low-admin client platforms, and cloud computing all presented opportunities. And while they move in that direction legacy Windows applications can still be run off small Citrix farms via RDP client software.

Of course all this proves is that alternatives to Windows have become more viable than in the past. Conventional Linux on the desktop is still only a minor contender though for servers it remains popular.


I was most surprised by "Chrome Apps" that can run locally or use remote services and data. This moved Chrome OS devices out of the "browser in a can" class. Today these machines even run native Android applications.

Basically nobody is writing new web applications except for public-facing sites, and even there Android and iOS apps are taking up the slack. Everything has gone back to standalone desktop apps and rich-client apps which avoid the "data island" problems presented by the need for browsers to wall everything in and the huge exploit target any web application presents to scrapers. It's like a SQL Injection risk magnified many times.


The world is changing, but then it always has.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Sometimes, you have to run as fast as you can just to remain in place.

-The Red Queen (or as close as I remember it)

[Gruff]

"The Red Queen is a self absorbed power mad beast."
-The Red King

[Niya]

...I'm sorry, that is pure IGNORANCE, but sadly many people just accept what the MAN gives them...

The man ? What are you, a hippie ? Who is this man ?

See...this is what your post had me thinking:-

[Gruff]

Looks like Zorro to me. Zorro's the man?

[Niya]

You know something just hit me about all this .Net hate. VB.Net always makes me think of it as BASIC with a twist of C/C++. Much of its ability has been inspired from C/C++. Delegates are like function pointers, generics are like templates. Then we have all the unsigned types, inheritance and virtual functions. VB6 in contrast was a very very simple language hence much easier to learn. BASIC while originally intended to wet people's appetites for programming was eventually used as a normal language to write production level applications by people who just couldn't grasp the more complicated languages like C or assembly, myself included. C was way over my head when I started programming as a child but BASIC was quite easy to pick up and until VB.Net, BASIC remained fairly unchanged. Now BASIC is no longer basic so from this perspective I guess all the VB6 people really do have a point. I'm only able to use VB.Net as well as I can because I already learned about all the more advanced features of the language when I started learning C++ but as a starter language, it might just be too complicated. In this light, VB6 would make a whole lot more sense because of its extreme simplicity.

[Niya]

Looks like Zorro to me. Zorro's the man?

Perhaps, or maybe some other cloaked figure who's face we can't see.....I mean why else would they call this entity "The Man". If we knew who he was, he'd be called by name, right ?

[techgnome]

The man ? What are you, a hippie ? Who is this man ?

See...this is what your post had me thinking:-

The Shadow ... The Shadow knows...

-tg

[dday9]

BASIC was quite easy to pick up and until VB.Net

I disagree. My first language I've ever learned was VB.Net and by far it's the simplest language I've ever learned.

[Niya]

I disagree. My first language I've ever learned was VB.Net and by far it's the simplest language I've ever learned.

I'm trying to play devil's advocate to throw the VB6 people a bone but it looks like even my assertion that VB.Net is difficult was dead wrong

Guess all these .Net hate threads have nothing to them afterall...just a bunch of childish posturing.

[Gruff]

The man is always keepin me down man.
Can't get no where cause of the man man.
He keeps singling me out cause I got potential.
Man you better stay under the radar man.
Snug down your tin foil hats and blennnd into the wall. Man.

[dee-u]

I disagree. My first language I've ever learned was VB.Net and by far it's the simplest language I've ever learned.

If VB.Net is your first language then how can you compare it with BASIC??????????

[Shaggy Hiker]

C was way over my head when I started programming as a child

Niya should change his name to Atlantis, cause both of them sank beneath the C.

It looks like Zorro to me, too.

@Rocket: Nice avatar.

[Shaggy Hiker]

If VB.Net is your first language then how can you compare it with BASIC??????????

It was Niya doing the comparison, not DDay, right? Or were you refering to some other post?

[techgnome]

It was Niya doing the comparison, not DDay, right? Or were you refering to some other post?

Firt Nya said:

BASIC was quite easy to pick up and until VB.Net...

For what ever reason dday disagreed with that...

I disagree. My first language I've ever learned was VB.Net and by far it's the simplest language I've ever learned.

which caussed dee-u to wonder what dday was smokin'

If VB.Net is your first language then how can you compare it with BASIC??????????

-tg

[dday9]

@TG, it sounds like a soap opera. We shall call it: Programming, the Deadliest Profession.

[DataMiser]

I think both VB6 and VB.Net are quite a lot easier to learn and do some pretty intense stuff in than BASIC ever was.

Try to remember how much time it took just to display stuff on the screen in the desired position before we had a WSYWYG editor. Searching through code before it used a word processor using LIST to display a few lines of code at a time, no ability to search unless you either wrote something to do it or used some other software to edit the code. Imagine how long it would take just to create a simple form with a button on it and have the mouse pointer appear, move and be able to detect a click on that button.

For a beginner what they could do in 1 minute in VB6 or VB.Net would take months to learn and code in BASIC and would probably require the use of Peek and Poke to poke ASM directly into memory.

Even VBDos was a big step forward both in ease of use and productivity.

VB.Net is different than VB in many ways just as VB6 is different from BASIC in many ways, both of them however allow you to do things with ease that were either very hard or impossible with the previous incarnations of BASIC and VB

[dee-u]

It was Niya doing the comparison, not DDay, right? Or were you refering to some other post?

I quoted DDay, why did it come to you that I am referring to Niya?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Cause I misunderstood you. I should have just made the pun about Niya and left it at that.

[dee-u]

Guess all these .Net hate threads have nothing to them afterall...just a bunch of childish posturing.

Do you mean to say any thread that wants an improved or better VB6 is a ".Net hate" thread?

[techgnome]

Do you mean to say any thread that wants an improved or better VB6 is a ".Net hate" thread?

OF course. It's the corollary to the reverse: If you don't want an improved VB(X) (Can't call it VB6 because and improvement would be a new version) must mean you hate VB6.

Then there's this corollary: If you don't use VB6, then you are dirt, lower than the lowest and only VB6 developers reign supreme.

And of course we can't forget the following corollary: The VB6 language is the pinnacle of all languages that all others must bow before and can only pretend to aspire to be like.

Did I forget any?

-tg

[dee-u]

If I want my wife to slim down it does not mean I hate other ladies for that, sure I may use other ladies but it may violate the AUP so I'll stop there.

[dday9]

If I want my wife to slim down it does not mean I hate other ladies for that, sure I may use other ladies but it may violate the AUP so I'll stop there.

Like my daddy says:

Just because I'm on a diet, doesn't mean that I can't look at the menu.

But like my momma says:

Yeah, but if I ever catch you eating off another woman's menu then I'll wind up owning the restaurant.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Do you mean to say any thread that wants an improved or better VB6 is a ".Net hate" thread?

They may not start out that way, but many of them seem to end up with a fair amount of hatred.

Its comments like this -

I'm sorry, that is pure IGNORANCE, but sadly many people just accept what the MAN gives them, and does not question anything. That is what we(vb6) guys are up against, common discussion among corporate developers will say that vb6 devs are incompetent. Well, I disagree, we actually are highly analytical and for that very reason do not favor .NET.

which without straight saying it, denegrate .Net users.

Not that Niya can talk, he can Troll with the best

[jayinthe813]

OF course. It's the corollary to the reverse: If you don't want an improved VB(X) (Can't call it VB6 because and improvement would be a new version) must mean you hate VB6.

Then there's this corollary: If you don't use VB6, then you are dirt, lower than the lowest and only VB6 developers reign supreme.

And of course we can't forget the following corollary: The VB6 language is the pinnacle of all languages that all others must bow before and can only pretend to aspire to be like.

Did I forget any?

-tg

I dont get what makes a VB6 developer (in their minds) worlds ahead of everything else. If I were to judge by developers that reign supreme, I would think C++ or developers that code in Assembly. VB6 to me appears dated and is not a "standard" by any means other than the constant desire of its tiny user base.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Not that Niya can talk, he can Troll with the best

Don't ask for whom the Niya trolls. He trolls for thee!

[Niya]

Do you mean to say any thread that wants an improved or better VB6 is a ".Net hate" thread?

VB.Net is an improved VB6 hence any thread that advocates an improved VB6 is a .Net hate thread. By nature of its very existence, it denies VB.Net as VB6's successor.

Not that Niya can talk, he can Troll with the best

This is a troll thread.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Don't ask for whom the Niya trolls. He trolls for thee!

ha ha i was going to say i would rate you for that post if i could, but then i realised we are in General Developer so i can and have

[Niya]

Niya should change his name to Atlantis, cause both of them sank beneath the C.

How do you even come up with this stuff

[MikiSoft]

http://vbforums.com/showthread.php?774177

[techgnome]

OK, I don't think I'm going to watch that... just on what I see in the preview image:
"It was very first Rapid Application Development IDE with it's [sic] simplicity programmers can create both simple and complex GUI applications"

1) No, it was NOT the first RAD development tool. That would belong to VB3 at least.
2) It insinuates that you can't create simple or complex applications in anything else. I'm sure there is an army of C developers that would disagree. It's (used correctly) propaganda.
3) Anyone who can't use "its" or "it's" correctly loses credibility with me. It's (used correctly again) a simple yet significant distinction.

That said, VB will never be released to the open source community. Sure, there are different flavors and dialects out there that are, but if you want the true VB open sourced... don't hold your breath. It isn't going to happen.

-tg

[FunkyDexter]

Its a shame that you didn't watch it. The slogan actally refers to "VB" rather than "VB6" so its correct in it's assertion.

[techgnome]

Ah, oh well... my loss I guess.

-tg

[dday9]

That said, VB will never be released to the open source community. Sure, there are different flavors and dialects out there that are, but if you want the true VB open sourced... don't hold your breath. It isn't going to happen.

That's not true, MS released MS Dos. It only took... Oh wait, maybe they shouldn't hold their breath :P

[FunkyDexter]

Ah, oh well... my loss I guess

Its OK. Its not clear from the preview what it's subject is or what exactly its referring to.

Anyway, there not making a very good case for open sourcing it but I guess thats they're loss. I could point out all the flaws in the argument but, well, best not go their.

Is my missuse of words literally driving you crazy yet?