Post Race!

[Witis]

They are lower than me on the food chain, so ya, no mercy.

No mercy it is then Niya.

[Niya]

Ah ok, so the appearance of the cow had nothing to do with you wanting to murder it.

Yes, if they weren't so stupid looking, I might overlook the fact that they taste awesome. Then again, maybe not. I just love beef dude!!

[Niya]

Beef4lyfe kid!!

[Niya]

Imma gonna ask the mods for a name change. Imma change my handle to "EatBeefAllDay"

[Witis]

How many times do I have to say it, my excuse is that they taste too good. I just can't help it. When I see a nice fat cow, I just wanna eat it. Get on my level son.

Do you have a favourite dinosaur that you like more than the others? Take your time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

[Niya]

No mercy it is then Niya.

I'm higher on the food chain. Its my right!!!

[Niya]

Do you have a favourite dinosaur that you like more than the others? Take your time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur

The triceratops!

[Witis]

Beef4lyfe kid!!

Ugga boey!

[Witis]

Imma gonna ask the mods for a name change. Imma change my handle to "EatBeefAllDay"

Do you think you can handle being sent to hell?

[Niya]

Do you think you can handle being sent to hell?

If hell is a place where I can eat beef all day, then sign me up! I'm going to hell. I hope I get to slaughter some cows too.

[Witis]

I'm higher on the food chain. Its my right!!!

Although you are higher on the food chain it is not your right to kill innocent creatures. However, it is your right to commit murder if that is what you consciously decide you want to do, although then you have to pay for any crimes that you commit.

[Witis]

The triceratops!

"Triceratops (Greek for "three-horn face") is a genus of herbivorous ceratopsid dinosaur that first appeared during the late Maastrichtian stage of the late Cretaceous period, about 68 million years ago" (Wiki). You can't murder beef if you are a Triceratops, try again ugga boye.

[Witis]

If hell is a place where I can eat beef all day, then sign me up! I'm going to hell. I hope I get to slaughter some cows too.

No you don't quite have it. If you murder cows and chickens then you go to hell, they won't let you continue to commit more crimes like that once you are there.

[Niya]

Although you are higher on the food chain it is not your right to kill innocent creatures.

Chickens and cows are better off in my stomach. It's my duty to make sure they end up there!!

[Niya]

That is what it means to be higher on the food chain.

[Niya]

No you don't quite have it. If you murder cows and chickens then you go to hell, they won't let you continue to commit more crimes like that once you are there.

How can you believe in hell and evolution at the same time ? You must be quite insane dude.

[Niya]

"Triceratops (Greek for "three-horn face") is a genus of herbivorous ceratopsid dinosaur that first appeared during the late Maastrichtian stage of the late Cretaceous period, about 68 million years ago" (Wiki). You can't murder beef if you are a Triceratops, try again ugga boye.

I don't care if it eats meat or not, its still an awesome creature!! Note that this doesn't mean I won't eat it....if it still lived that is.

[Niya]

Do you think you can handle being sent to hell?

Handle ? Son, I wanna go there!

[Witis]

Chickens and cows are better off in my stomach. It's my duty to make sure they end up there!!

But you now know you are consciously committing murder by eating chickens and cows i.e. there is a mens rea.

[Witis]

That is what it means to be higher on the food chain.

As humans are capable of higher level rational thought being human includes the responsibility of defending rather than eating innocent animals.

[Witis]

How can you believe in hell and evolution at the same time ? You must be quite insane dude.

How can you believe that you can commit murder and get away with it indefinitely? You must be criminally insane.

[Niya]

As humans are capable of higher level rational thought being human includes the responsibility of defending rather than eating innocent animals.

My higher level of rational though tells me that since they taste good, I'm supposed to eat them.

[Witis]

I don't care if it eats meat or not, its still an awesome creature!! Note that this doesn't mean I won't eat it....if it still lived that is.

Heh, if you are happy to murder chickens and cows then I don't see why you wouldn't kill a Triceratops too. Although you forgot to choose a carnivorous dinosaur.

[Witis]

Handle ? Son, I wanna go there!

I am not your son. I actually believe that you do want to commit enough crimes to send yourself there Niya.

[Witis]

My higher level of rational though tells me that since they taste good, I'm supposed to eat them.

No one can force you to be good Niya, if you want to be evil that is your prerogative.

[Niya]

No one can force you to be good Niya, if you want to be evil that is your prerogative.

I don't want to be evil, I just want to be fed tasty food.

[FunkyDexter]

If hell is a place where I can eat beef all day, then sign me up!

I've been having <ahem> "stomach problems" that have been getting worse and worse for about 3 or 4 years. Been to see the doctors and there's nothing diagnosable so I've been cutting out various types of food to see what effect it has. A couple of weeks ago I tried cutting out meat and, while not perfect, my digestion improved pretty dramatically. Conclusion: I may be forced to cut meat out of my diet completely.

Hell is the place where you can't eat beef all day.

Mind you, I had a burger last night and damn the consequences. It should be noted that there are two meanings for the word "damn" and both are equally applicable.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't have any statistics but I highly doubt that tall shady trees line the majority of every desert river and stream.

I don't have the statistics, either. They line every fenced stream in this state, though.

Sadly I couldn't seem to work out how to get the figures I needed to work out the U.V. and temp readings over the course of a day.

When I was talking about U.V. and temp over the course of a day I was talking about that:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/ctl/clisci0.html
"By the time the surface temperature reaches its maximum, the amount of UV radiation reaching the surface has decreased almost by half of that at solar noon". At noon there is max U.V. and the temp is close to the daily max making it the worst time of the day in a desert. I know the temp can stay elevated near the daily max sometimes not dropping until 10pm or later, but noon is still the most stressful time in my view.

I was wondering why you kept talking about UV radiation. I assumed that it was an afterthought, but now it looks like you really think that UV is related to heat. Are you sure you aren't thinking of IR? UV has little or nothing to do with heating as far as I can tell, it only deals with sunburns. The link you provided did show UV max, but also showed (and stated) that maximum surface temperature was much later. The link I gave you wasn't terribly hard to navigate to find the maximum daily temperature. Just click the radio button for the archived data, then select any day in the listbox. The daily max temperatures are there. However, since you seem to have gotten onto UV, I can see why you weren't able to get it, because that isn't in those reports.

What's up with the UV?

Trout are typically regarded as cool climate fish so that is a problem if they are making their way into desert areas like the redbands:

Classic! As soon as that video started, I recognized Dr. Dan Schill. He's a reasonable person to have talking about redband trout, since he has been involved with so much research on them. They aren't "making their way" into the desert. They've been there longer than we have.

As far as I am aware the majority of the native desert fish in North America are endangered or have become extinct this century including the bonytail chub: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonytail_chub due to pressure from non native species. One solution is to reintroduce some of the endangered species of native desert fish in order to avoid the problems you are talking about regarding the water temperature killing the non native or temperate climate species. I bet some of those species are extremely tasty.

Which ones? The desert fish, or the introduced species? Trout are trout, so you either like them or not. Redbands never get all that big, and I don't know of a single species found in desert streams that grows large enough to bother eating. You can certainly try eating chubs, if you so desire. There are plenty of species of those that are not endangered. I don't know of a single species that is consumed by humans, though.

[Shaggy Hiker]

That's heaven pal and I am fairly certain there is not much you can do about it Niya, so what's it going to be execution or long term to eternal damnation? If you are a serious atheist run it as a hypothetical.

Frankly, your vision of heaven is as horrible as all the others I have ever heard. If this be heavan, then give me hell.

[Shaggy Hiker]

On one point I would agree with Witis: If we banned the consumption of cows for meat, hides, and all the other things that they are used for (every part of the cow is used), that would work pretty well for me, because it would drive cows to extinction in no time. They simply aren't suited to live on their own, and wouldn't survive for long. The only reason they are sitll with us is because we find them useful. Without that, all the talk of evnironmental degradation that they cause would be moot.

[homer13j]

[szlamany]

So if we stop having cows as a protein source then what will it be replaced by?

Remember that movie Soylent Green (1973 might be too long ago for the young folk here).

[Shaggy Hiker]

So, let's move on to the next thing.

[dday9]

So, let's move on to the next thing.

OMG. Becky, look at her butt.

[Witis]

I don't want to be evil, I just want to be fed tasty food.

I'm sorry Niya but you can't be good and murder chickens and cows. :L

[Witis]

I've been having <ahem> "stomach problems" that have been getting worse and worse for about 3 or 4 years. Been to see the doctors and there's nothing diagnosable so I've been cutting out various types of food to see what effect it has. A couple of weeks ago I tried cutting out meat and, while not perfect, my digestion improved pretty dramatically. Conclusion: I may be forced to cut meat out of my diet completely.

Hell is the place where you can't eat beef all day.

Mind you, I had a burger last night and damn the consequences. It should be noted that there are two meanings for the word "damn" and both are equally applicable.

Do you mean you are thinking about going vegetarian/vegan or can you still eat fish Dec?

[Witis]

I don't have the statistics, either. They line every fenced stream in this state, though.

True, I can't imagine why they would fence them otherwise except to protect small shrubs and other plant life.

I was wondering why you kept talking about UV radiation. I assumed that it was an afterthought, but now it looks like you really think that UV is related to heat. Are you sure you aren't thinking of IR? UV has little or nothing to do with heating as far as I can tell, it only deals with sunburns. The link you provided did show UV max, but also showed (and stated) that maximum surface temperature was much later. The link I gave you wasn't terribly hard to navigate to find the maximum daily temperature. Just click the radio button for the archived data, then select any day in the listbox. The daily max temperatures are there. However, since you seem to have gotten onto UV, I can see why you weren't able to get it, because that isn't in those reports.

What's up with the UV?

The U.V. chart shows the sun's intensity peaks at midday although it takes a few hours for the temperature to peak in response, even so the temperature at midday is only a few degree lower than its daily peak, thus the midday sun is the most intense time of the day in the desert. The water can be warmed indirectly by the air temperature or directly by the sun thus the water is being heated the most at midday and that is when the sun is overhead meaning that any trees lining the stream will have little to no impact on the daily water temperature. So I am not convinced a. that there are very many tall trees lining the desert rivers and streams and b. even if there are whether they can substantially lower the water temperature given the heating effect of the midday sun.

Classic! As soon as that video started, I recognized Dr. Dan Schill. He's a reasonable person to have talking about redband trout, since he has been involved with so much research on them. They aren't "making their way" into the desert. They've been there longer than we have.

I am not sure that was the point Dan was making, he was suggesting that it wasn't their natural environment and that they only survive in the desert in cool spring fed streams i.e. trout are a cool climate rather than a desert fish and that they haven't evolved to live there.

As far as I am aware the majority of the native desert fish in North America are endangered or have become extinct this century including the bonytail chub: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonytail_chub due to pressure from non native species. One solution is to reintroduce some of the endangered species of native desert fish in order to avoid the problems you are talking about regarding the water temperature killing the non native or temperate climate species. I bet some of those species are extremely tasty.

Which ones? The desert fish, or the introduced species? Trout are trout, so you either like them or not. Redbands never get all that big, and I don't know of a single species found in desert streams that grows large enough to bother eating. You can certainly try eating chubs, if you so desire. There are plenty of species of those that are not endangered. I don't know of a single species that is consumed by humans, though.

Not the trout as they are a cool climate species and so you know that there are going to be problems trying to get them to survive in the desert, so any of the native species that have evolved to withstand desert conditions. As far as picking out the species to focus on I guess that would involve a series of taste tests to determine which varieties will be most sought after in the fish markets, although perhaps you can make a case for some of the other less tasty varieties.

[Witis]

Frankly, your vision of heaven is as horrible as all the others I have ever heard. If this be heavan, then give me hell.

My vision on this issue is that you are not allowed to murder innocent creatures in the same way that humans are not allowed to murder each other or execute innocent men. You mean that you actually want to go around trying to murder everything while trying to take over the universe? If that is the case then you clearly don't want to live in heaven, you want to live in a nihilistic lair of iniquity instead, and that means going to hell when you are finally caught and brought to justice.

[Witis]

So if we stop having cows as a protein source then what will it be replaced by?

Remember that movie Soylent Green (1973 might be too long ago for the young folk here).

Any animal that you can truthfully justify killing for food including fish, lizards, snakes, spiders, etc., and make sure that you don't include any innocent creatures in the food chain. Also you don't have to eat meat for protein.

[szlamany]

Any animal that you can truthfully justify killing for food including fish, lizards, snakes, spiders, etc., and make sure that you don't include any innocent creatures in the food chain. Also you don't have to eat meat for protein.

How do you consider it ok to kill a fish or a lizard and are against a chicken or a cow?

If you are using "animal IQ" then that lizard and chicken are pretty close - right?

The way I justify it is that 10,000 years ago man domesticated cows and figured out how to grow better vegetables. I consider both of those aspects to be the same - farming is farming - whether we have a man-made oyster bed, fish farms or chicken farms.

If you think cows are just special mammals for some other reason - religion or culture, for instance - then this is just a silly debate.

Why debate culture? The points is that you and yours "own" you culture - and I have my own