What do I learn next?

[Chrissy]

I graduated in 2001 which was the beginning of the online revolution. I took one HTML class... that was the only web programming in my curriculum. I also took a BASIC, COBOL, C++ and VB 6 programming classes. The past 10 years I have been creating Excel VBA macros and programs in VB 6 with an Access database which also makes calls to our existing Oracle database.

Since VB 6 is a technology of the past... what should I spend my time learning next? Since VB.NET is not even close to VB 6, I feel like I should make a move to learn something that is technology forward.

Any advice is welcome.

Chrissy

[Shaggy Hiker]

VB.NET isn't all that far from VB6. You'd find the syntax familiar. However, with your background, you would also probably find C# and Java familiar, since they are both in the C-syntax family. As a general rule, people who know C# get paid a bit better than those with VB.NET. Personally, I find the C language a bit annoying, and switching between VB and C-syntax is totally frustrating due to the semicolons, but it's popular and the syntactic basis for other languages such as Java and Javascript, so if you work in C# you'd probably move to those two without dropping semicolons every other line.

On the other hand, you may find that your experience in VBA and VB6 make VB.NET a more appealing progression. I loved VB6 and was reluctant to move to .NET, but I picked it up pretty fast and never wanted to go back. It's hard to say whether your familiarity with the language would make it easier to learn or harder. It would be easier because you'd be familiar with the syntax, but it would be harder because the differences would throw you off more easily. If you start in a totally new language, EVERYTHING is different, which may make it easier to make the mental shift.

[Chrissy]

VB.NET isn't all that far from VB6. You'd find the syntax familiar. However, with your background, you would also probably find C# and Java familiar, since they are both in the C-syntax family. As a general rule, people who know C# get paid a bit better than those with VB.NET. Personally, I find the C language a bit annoying, and switching between VB and C-syntax is totally frustrating due to the semicolons, but it's popular and the syntactic basis for other languages such as Java and Javascript, so if you work in C# you'd probably move to those two without dropping semicolons every other line.

On the other hand, you may find that your experience in VBA and VB6 make VB.NET a more appealing progression. I loved VB6 and was reluctant to move to .NET, but I picked it up pretty fast and never wanted to go back. It's hard to say whether your familiarity with the language would make it easier to learn or harder. It would be easier because you'd be familiar with the syntax, but it would be harder because the differences would throw you off more easily. If you start in a totally new language, EVERYTHING is different, which may make it easier to make the mental shift.

I am in a unique position where I work in that I am the only programmer. Therefore, I could introduce new coding languages without any resistance. I feel like I am "out of date" with only working in VB 6 & VBA. I want to broaden my horizons... I may opt to learn C#. I like the point you made about it being totally different so I won't get caught up in looking for similarities.

[Shaggy Hiker]

If you will continue to maintain programs in VB or VBA, you will probably find that the case sensitive nature of C-family languages and semicolons both tend to trip you up a fair amount when you move from one language to another.

Since you are the only coder there, your supervisors and coworkers may not be quite as computer savvy as you. This could work in your favor when it comes to C#. Frankly, one of the reasons I think it is so popular is that it looks so totally arcane when compared to a language like VB. All those symbols! You can make If statements look like total gibberish to the unintiated.

[Chrissy]

If you will continue to maintain programs in VB or VBA, you will probably find that the case sensitive nature of C-family languages and semicolons both tend to trip you up a fair amount when you move from one language to another.

Since you are the only coder there, your supervisors and coworkers may not be quite as computer savvy as you. This could work in your favor when it comes to C#. Frankly, one of the reasons I think it is so popular is that it looks so totally arcane when compared to a language like VB. All those symbols! You can make If statements look like total gibberish to the unintiated.

I created all the VB programs... my goal is to recreate them in another language. I will check out C#... I will have to see if there is a class somewhere I can take. I am a visual learner.. I need to see it. I do not have much luck teaching myself from a book. Unless you know of any really good online tutorials for C#??

[Shaggy Hiker]

Lots of people here recommend:

http://www.homeandlearn.co.uk/csharp/csharp.html

or the VB.NET equivalent. I haven't looked myself, but it seems popular with this crowd. Also, in case you weren't aware, you can get a free copy of C# with the Express version, which is not particularly stripped down. If you can talk the boss into investing in your training, get a version of VS higher than the Express version, but don't let the money stop you, since the Express version is still pretty doggone good.

[Chrissy]

Lots of people here recommend:

http://www.homeandlearn.co.uk/csharp/csharp.html

or the VB.NET equivalent. I haven't looked myself, but it seems popular with this crowd. Also, in case you weren't aware, you can get a free copy of C# with the Express version, which is not particularly stripped down. If you can talk the boss into investing in your training, get a version of VS higher than the Express version, but don't let the money stop you, since the Express version is still pretty doggone good.

Thanks for the advice. I had already downloaded the VS Express version. I will poke around.

[Niya]

If you will continue to maintain programs in VB or VBA, you will probably find that the case sensitive nature of C-family languages and semicolons both tend to trip you up a fair amount when you move from one language to another.

This times 100. It cannot be overstated just how annoying those things are.

I'd also add that the IDE when working in VB.Net seems a little more helpful than with C#. Could just be my perception though. I've only poked around in C# a handful of times so I'm not really qualified to talk about this in detail.

[dilettante]

Doesn't it really depend on your goals?

If you are going to be writing Word macros and such as a sideshow to a job as a general office worker I'm not sure you want to give up on VBA. Yes there are ways to do things in Office programs using .Net but almost nobody does it. Making a commitment to VBA provides a strong incentive to ride the VB6 train until the rails disappear under it.

But if you want to find work as a professional programmer, you have to define its scope further too.

Yes, there are CRUD jobs out there and most will require Cobol (even today), .Net, or Java. Java has the edge because it is highly multiplatform (Windows, Unix, Mac, even mainframes) so there are a lot more jobs.

Other jobs require heavy C++ skills and are often tied to experience on a specific platform.

Then you have the booming mobile development marketplace which requires skills in Android Java, iOS Cocoa, or in some cases "HTML + JavaScript" tools will suffice. Microsoft is the big loser here, because they changed their mobile platforms to be .Net centric and have lost market share ever since.

I assume you heard what a big loser WinRT is, and that Microsoft is even being sued over it:

Class-action suit filed against Microsoft over Surface RT

Is WinPhone next?


So aside from low-paying CRUD jobs there really is no market to speak of for .Net programming skills. For those you have to compete with most of the 3rd world which does such work very cheaply. You can find exceptions of course, but the better paying .Net jobs require deep skills and domain experience.

Of course if you live in a low-wage area then that might be your ticket to prosperity too.


To be fair (and appease those outraged by my comments above) the job market for VB6 skills is much smaller than for .Net languages, and many of those are for conversion work to .Net, Java, etc. Not gone, but small, and not a lot of new development even then.

[Shaggy Hiker]

So aside from low-paying CRUD jobs there really is no market to speak of for .Net programming skills. For those you have to compete with most of the 3rd world which does such work very cheaply. You can find exceptions of course, but the better paying .Net jobs require deep skills and domain experience.

I totally disagree with that statement. I would agree with it if it was narrowly focused on a specific area where everything is written in some other language, but .NET jobs are hardly scarce from small to large, and I'd say they are growing. Mobile is certainly a huge growth area, and if I was going to focus on that I'd be looking almost exclusively at Android Java unless I was naturally an Apple-fan. For the moment, I think Android will win out as the mobile platform, though MS has enough size that perhaps they can pull their head out at some point (it's happened before, so, despite their recent history, I still don't count them out). Apple will always be peripheral because they will always make the barriers around their software high enough to keep out the average developer. Just as they did with the Mac, Apple will play to a group of dedicated (and occasionally rabid) minority.

However, I don't feel that Java is all that when it comes to building internal, non-web, apps for organizations. Where I work, and in every agency I deal with, there is a need for .NET development, along with web development, but there is nothing that is Java but not web. Frankly, I don't feel that Java has legs of its own, and will end up as more of a niche player for certain systems in certain flavors. With C/C++ not being a viable option as a truly RAD language, it seems that .NET is probably the best for it.

[Chrissy]

However, I don't feel that Java is all that when it comes to building internal, non-web, apps for organizations. Where I work, and in every agency I deal with, there is a need for .NET development, along with web development, but there is nothing that is Java but not web. Frankly, I don't feel that Java has legs of its own, and will end up as more of a niche player for certain systems in certain flavors. With C/C++ not being a viable option as a truly RAD language, it seems that .NET is probably the best for it.

I agree... I was recently looking to see what kind of jobs are out there with my skill set (I live in a suburb of Chicago). I couldn't find one for VB6. A couple of VBA, but those were mostly entry level type positions. I remember when I was in school, my COBOL teacher was making excellent money keeping an old beast alive because he was one of few COBOL programmers out there. I was hoping that would be the case with VB6, but that has not happened yet. A lot of programming jobs out there were for the .NET platform.

Since my original post, I have been poking around C#.NET and it seems fairly easy to learn. I believe the big hurdle in learning to program is logic. Once you have that, I think you can learn any language quite easily. I am just trying to broaden my skill set. I mostly write accounting related programs and macros for my company. I would also like delve deeper into the Oracle world... maybe that will be my next venture.

[dilettante]

I would also like delve deeper into the Oracle world... maybe that will be my next venture.

Er... guess what? Oracle "owns" Java and is pretty much all Java all the time.

[Chrissy]

Er... guess what? Oracle "owns" Java and is pretty much all Java all the time.

Understood. I just want to learn something right now that I can actually apply to my current job. While we do have Oracle, I would have better use for something like C# right now instead of Java.

[Shaggy Hiker]

A database is a database, though I have no direct experience with Oracle As long as you are able to form a connection using .NET, then you can use .NET to work with the database.

[Chrissy]

A database is a database, though I have no direct experience with Oracle As long as you are able to form a connection using .NET, then you can use .NET to work with the database.

In reference to Oracle, I was speaking in terms of writing PL/SQL and/or going the DBA route.

[szlamany]

I have a unique situation here - I was new to PC's in 2001 and chose VB6 to start creating apps with - MS SQL for backend. Five years ago I transitioned to VB.Net - then did ASP.Net, which led me to JavaScript/Jquery in the browser against VB.Net web-methods running under ASP.Net. Had to fully learn HTML and CSS and wow that's a learning curve and a half...

Past two years I've created 4 backend services - in VB.Net - calling a huge library of home-grown C++ unmanaged string functions. Had to learn how to really code in C++ and that is certainly not an easy task.

And the past 3 months creating a user-interface that talks to these services as a WFP application with XAML for the markup and I decided to go with C# for the code - since I've been doing so much JavaScript lately.

It's a huge riot to watch me sometimes when I'm coding the C# UI and changing the CLASS that I serialize and pass back and forth. I've got the VB services running with break points in VS 2010 and the C# WPF UI running in VS 2012. Talk about not knowing when to use a semi-colon and that fact that .ToString() needs a () and that an array is []!

In other words I think I've touched on 75% of the common technologies in the past decade or so.

WPF is really wicked cool - XAML allows both WINFORM and WEBFORM (Silverlight and such). I'm doing WINFORM WPF.

If you are going to create user interface type screens - learn WPF and XAML - it's worth it. The event model in WPF is great - the Dispatcher object does incredible multi-threading.

Almost all of what I am doing involves the .Net library - and that alone can take a huge amount of time to use large portions of.

I am thinking of getting some help in the office in the very near future - that coder will be creating CRUD with MS SQL Stored Procedures to further migrate my VB6 customers into the jQuery web-app that I've created.

When my partners get funding I'm going to be hiring C++ programmers to replace the VB.Net services I've created as proof-of-concept.

[FunkyDexter]

So aside from low-paying CRUD jobs there really is no market to speak of for .Net programming skills.

How on earth do you arrive at the conclusion that "CRUD" jobs are low paid? Database skills are probably the single most in-demand area and the need is far from fulfilled. As recently as a year ago I was recruiting for .Net/database programmers and it was a nightmare trying to find decent people. It's easy as pie to make good money with that skill set.

As for whether I'd use java or .net in that scenario, much of a muchness and I'd go with whichever feels comfortable. Personally I feel that .Net is a better rad tool, mainly due to the superiority of the ide over anything that comes with java. I think the language is probably a bit more feature rich as well but that's a secondary consideration where rad is concerned; the ide will do more to make me productive than the language. And I'm convinced the bulk of programming that goes on is rad development of internal business applications so that's what would drive my decision. Hell, the bulk of it's probably still old school 2 tier client server stuff. It's not glamorous but it's prevalent in almost every company I visit.

As for the assertion that Oracle is java centric, I find that completely bizarre. It just a datastore. You connect to it the same as you do to sql server, mySQL or any other. And you can integrate it into an ide in exactly the same way. Oracle is no more java centric than SQL Server is .Net centric. The fact that the same company owns them is neither here nor there.

[techgnome]

Strictly speaking, CRUD jobs are almost non-existent... just about everyone these days has a tool that does them magically... we have a VS add-in that does the basic CRUD functions and builds the sprocs for us... but that's if you're talking strictly CRUD operations... which I'm sure most of us know, it's never that simple... there's always some business logic in there no matter how hard we try... that's where the skill set really comes in. Building out that logic. And in our shop, there is not only a fair amount of SQL going on, but a lot of .NET... and we're now fully a .NET shop... not a VB shop and not a C# shop... Most of our developers that work in the area that I do are VB'ers ... so that's what we work with... people in products tend to lean more towards C#...and among our clients, they seem to be largely split.

-tg

[szlamany]

Funny thing is I'm looking for CRUD assistance in my office right now - and I have to say that I usually need that type of developer.

[dilettante]

Somehow people have a narrow notion that "the Oracle world" is limited to a DBMS. It isn't.

http://www.oracle.com/index.html

[szlamany]

Toad all the way...

[codeaddict]

c# is good. but if you want to invest some time in learning another language or technology there are many others that will pay handsomely. you can PM me or email as I don't want to get into a technology debate with others. swm

[HanneSThEGreaT]

Well, I have found jumping to C# from VB 6 quite easy. But yeah, at the end of the day if you want to study VB.NET, go all out with all its sub avenues ( web, desktop, even phone! )