Microsoft

[zer0_flaw]

Heh, I know I'm gonna get hit hard by flames for posting this but the irony amazes me so here I go anyway: It still makes me laugh when I see people in a visual basic forum flaming the company that made the program they makes their apps with and program in everyday. I mean you love Visual Basic and yet condemn the company that created it. LOL, I know they have a monopoly and are greedy but think about it... what if unix/linux/sun catches up in the amount of users. Say windows users went from 85% to 35%. Then your apps will only work on 35% of the computers out there. In a way the monopoly helps us all out Cmon... let me have it *ducks and waits for the flames to pour in*

-zer0 flaw

[denniswrenn]

VB sucks, long live C++.

[JungleMan]

The ideal situation would be for everything to be OS independent...

[filburt1]

Originally posted by denniswrenn
VB sucks, long live C++.

Traitor!

[denniswrenn]

Then the ideal situation would be to use C++.

[JungleMan]

Originally posted by denniswrenn
Then the ideal situation would be to use C++.

VB is a RAD tool, C++ is good but not perfect for everything and everyone

[zer0_flaw]

Wow... that didn't take long for you guys to respond =] Yeah, C++ is nice but VB is a lot faster

[denniswrenn]

what? What? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?

[abdul]

Exactly oposite:

vb is nice but C++ is faster

[nishantp]

YA nice place to be saying that DennisWrenn. At least in VB you can make a @#$% message box in less than a hundred lines....

Well Microsoft makes great software, and there marketing strategy is...well...unstoppable. The other side to things is that programmers HAVE to write software that is compatible with there OSes cause they own the largest market share. After that it only makes sense to use there software to write those programs, cause they know there own damn OS better than anybosy else. The point is that they are slowly taking over the small amount of market share that they havnt already touched...and at this rate soon software will be the same as saying Microsoft. And then prices will be...well...up to them. You see the obious problem with the monopoly here.

Dont get me wrong there are a lot of good things about the monopoly such as the fact that if i write something in VB, i know that the vast majority of computer users will also be able to use it. Its a double-edged sword...

[denniswrenn]

MessageBox(NULL, "Text", "Caption", MB_OK);


Let's count, shall we? 1...

[nishantp]

Uhh zero...VB is an interpreted language, C++ isnt...so its IMPOSSIBLE for VB to be faster. C++ is WAY faster...thats why APIs are faster tahn using VB code...cause they were written in C++. But of course...VB still Rulz!

[spetnik]

Well, Zer0, it's not really like that. Most Visual Basic programmers write software for their own companies (or corporate clients). For example, I work for CIBC. We use Windows, so I don't lose anything. In fact, I sometimes write apps for our department to assist in development itself. VB is usually not good enough for professional retail software.

Additionally, should a company decide to switch platforms, most professional programmers have no problem learning new languages and technologies, and therefore are unafected by the change. Another thing, now with JAVA and VBNET, this is even less of a problem as these technologies work cross-platform. So you see, the way I look at it, if Microsoft goes down, fine. I know and can learn other languages. I'll adapt. I even interviewed with a company that was looking for programmers who would be constantly using new technologies and would have to learn them on the fly.

Basically, Microsoft programs are @#$% and in fact Windows is just something they bought (they did NOT come up with that). They are sloppy and can afford to do so, as they have no real competition. I am doing VB now, but who knows what I'll be doing in a year or 2. I know C and UNIX, I have an understanding of PERL, PHP, and C++. And I am learning JAVA.

[nishantp]

ya ok so i know jack about C++...but you know that for just about anything VB can be written faster and with WAY less lines.

[JungleMan]

I've seen Hello world programs in C++...WAAAAy too long

[denniswrenn]

Originally posted by nishantp
Uhh zero...VB is an interpreted language, C++ isnt...so its IMPOSSIBLE for VB to be faster. C++ is WAY faster...thats why APIs are faster tahn using VB code...cause they were written in C++. But of course...VB still Rulz!

Huh? I was refering to the number of lines needed to make a message box....

[spetnik]

Originally posted by nishantp
Uhh zero...VB is an interpreted language, C++ isnt...so its IMPOSSIBLE for VB to be faster. C++ is WAY faster...thats why APIs are faster tahn using VB code...cause they were written in C++. But of course...VB still Rulz!

I dont know if anyone realizes this, but the VB compiler actually converts the code to C++ first. Now, this is probably a bad thing, and I don't think it's by accident that VB does not let you see that C++ code. It is probably the ugliest thing ever. VB is structured differently, and that structure is slower.

[denniswrenn]

Originally posted by jpbtennisman
I've seen Hello world programs in C++...WAAAAy too long

#include <iostream>
using std::cout; using std::endl;
int main()
{
cout << "Hello World" << endl;
return(0);
}

Wow, that is too long...

[spetnik]

Originally posted by nishantp
ya ok so i know jack about C++...but you know that for just about anything VB can be written faster and with WAY less lines.

Right, but it is much less powerful, and not designed for retail apps.

[nishantp]

But Spetnik, as a programmer you must be able to appreciate the standardization that Microsoft has brought. If you write a program in VB, just about any User can use that program because Windows is used the the vast majority of computer users. If Microsoft wasnt there, there would be no windows. And since Unix never quite had a standard version, there may not have been 1 big OS...so programmers wouldnt be able to program for as large a share of the market.

[spetnik]

Originally posted by nishantp
But Spetnik, as a programmer you must be able to appreciate the standardization that Microsoft has brought. If you write a program in VB, just about any User can use that program because Windows is used the the vast majority of computer users. If Microsoft wasnt there, there would be no windows. And since Unix never quite had a standard version, there may not have been 1 big OS...so programmers wouldnt be able to program for as large a share of the market.

Most UNIX apps run on most versions of UNIX. Yeah, Windows is nice, but without MS, there would be competition and quality systems. There would also be standardization. In fact, I'll bet that had there not been Microsoft, we would have seen CLRs (Common Language Runtime) alot sooner. The only reason Microsoft is introducing the CLR with .NET is because they already see their monopoly starting to falter. Bill Gates may suck at programming, but he is a business genius (and therefore an @$$hole).

[nishantp]

Uhh pardon my ignorance Spetnik...but what indication is there htat Microsoft's monopoly is faltering? I mean they won there appeal and they wont be broken up anymore...whos going to stop them now?

[denniswrenn]

I will MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA™

[spetnik]

Well, with LINUX/UNIX becoming more popular, there are many companies that have/are switched/switching over. This, along with the advent of JAVA has forced MS to try to monopolize the CLR technology.

[filburt1]

Originally posted by denniswrenn
I will MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA™

That should be the new emoticon.

[HarryW]

Nowadays VB is almost 100% compiled (almost), very little is interpreted in the later versions. The fact remains, though, that it is slower than most languages.

The fact is, VB is a RAD tool. It's for quick and dirty apps that probably aren't mission-critical, or it's for programmers who are uncomfortable with the greater challenges of more complex languages. VB is very good at what it does, on the Windows platform. There are alternatives that offer similar facilities, like Java, Delphi and Python, although they all have their own positions in the market.

VB is a good idea, but it's nothing fantastic. If VB wasn't around, it wouldn't mean all the people here at VB-World wouldn't be programmers any more, they'd be using other tools instead. Personally I hardly use VB any more, I've moved on to other things like C++ and Python, since my interests lie more with performance-critical apps and platform-independent web-based programs.

Microsoft has brought standards, that much is true, but they are enforced, closed standards. They aren't good standards. Microsoft designs the standards to support their own corporate needs, not those of its consumers and the development community as a whole. We as developers would be much better off with open standards that everyone agrees on and everyone contributes to.

I doubt their market share is growing, although I wouldn't bet on it. Linux is making a lot of headway at the moment, and so is a heck of a lot of other open-source stuff. The open-source movement is doing very well.

[nishantp]

Lol the fact is that they made standards. Without them, and Bill Gates genius (ya i know hes a filthy rich greedy bastard, and yeah i know im jealous) i dont think there would have been any standards. Everyone would never have agreed to one set of standards to the extent that they have with Microsofts standards. Of course, since they stand to make a buck, those standards arent always the best

[spetnik]

Originally posted by nishantp
Lol the fact is that they made standards. Without them, and Bill Gates genius (ya i know hes a filthy rich greedy bastard, and yeah i know im jealous) i dont think there would have been any standards. Everyone would never have agreed to one set of standards to the extent that they have with Microsofts standards. Of course, since they stand to make a buck, those standards arent always the best

Apparently, u don't know C or C++. If you want standard, I have one word for you: ANSI. C and C++ have been standardized over different companies and platforms via ANSI. And besides, how, may I ask is VB standard? Even Microsoft barely uses it for end-user apps .

[spetnik]

Originally posted by denniswrenn

#include <iostream>
using std::cout; using std::endl;
int main()
{
cout << "Hello World" << endl;
return(0);
}

Wow, that is too long...

Yep, and the same thing in VB is like 40 lines (and that's jsut to initialize the console

[nishantp]

ya but theres like no point of using a dos window in VB

[denniswrenn]

it's not a DOS window, it's a console window.....

[nishantp]

lol like i said i know jack about C++

[denniswrenn]

But it's not C++.... DOS is what ya boot into when you need to fix something with Windows(or install windows, or something)... Console is a DOS-Like application that runs under Win32...

[nishantp]

Oh no. i committed the sin of calling it a dos window!! Noo im doomed to hell!! lol sorry. It looks like a dos window. You know all black and all. Sorry if your console window looks like a DOS window...

[denniswrenn]

Please, don't do that. If you knew the difference between DOS and Console already, and just made a mistake, I'm sorry, but if you are referencing something and perhaps giving false information about it, well that's not so good...

[HarryW]

There are widely used open standards all around the industry, like ASCII, OpenGL, Jpeg, Mpeg, C++, SQL, etc. If you think people can't agree on standards without one single business forcing one on them, you're wrong.

[nishantp]

Originally posted by spetnik


Apparently, u don't know C or C++. If you want standard, I have one word for you: ANSI. C and C++ have been standardized over different companies and platforms via ANSI. And besides, how, may I ask is VB standard? Even Microsoft barely uses it for end-user apps .

Well what i meant is that Microsoft made a platform that every programmer can program for, highly regardless of programming language. Through there marketing strategy, they have basically forced people to use there software. But in the process they have made a base upon which every programmer can build. Unix and the other OSes around were never standardized to the level to which Windows was.

[Cander]

Well that's the one arguement I always object to nishantp.
MS has never FORCED anyone to use any of their products. Yes they were forced onto my harddrive, but nothing has ever made me use it. Like Media Player. It may be on my harddrive, but do I have to use it for MP3's. Heck no. Nothing stopped me from downloading Winamp.

One thing that Ms bashers do not realize is that because of MS, we are where we are today. They are always the first implement new technologies. If they hadnt, many of these would probably still be dead in the water going no where. For isntance XML. And now everyone is implementing XML capabilites and is becoming widely used.

And speaking of standards. Have you guys ever heared some of these people spouting off 'how dare MS remove the Java standard form Windows!' What I want to know is, since when was Sun a governing standards body? And they accuse MS of making its own standards.

[spetnik]

Originally posted by nishantp


Well what i meant is that Microsoft made a platform that every programmer can program for, highly regardless of programming language. Through there marketing strategy, they have basically forced people to use there software. But in the process they have made a base upon which every programmer can build. Unix and the other OSes around were never standardized to the level to which Windows was.

Once again, WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!

There are many areas of UNIX/LINUX programming to go into, whether it be C, C++, JAVA, COBOL, BASIC (including visual editions), and more. UNIX has highly powerful shell scripting languages too, that are far-superior than anything MS has even attempted. In fact until recently, MS used UNIX themselves. There are an enourmous emount of computer programming positions out there. In fact if you go to http://www.computerjobs.com, you will see that for Windows Development they have 3,585 jobs, and for Unix 3,588. I was trained on a UNIX platform and am very greatful for that. UNIX is a much more sofisticated, yet simple to understand OS that belittles Windows. Windows is just a nice front-end for dumb end-users (not meaning to criticize users, but lets face it. Most home users know very little about computers in general and the Windows desktop, however buggy, is right now their best option). UNIX can be customized on a business level to run seamlessly and efficiently. You can have 200 dumb-terminals attached to one machine, thereby saving alot of overhead cost.

I was once at Lambert airport in St. Louis, by the curbside check-in. I noticed that the touch-screen computers were running Win 3.1 software. I told a SKYCAP ('porter' for u dumb brits and aussies), "I bet I can get a card game up on your screen". He was kind of surprised, but let me go ahead. By double-tabbing the title-bar, I restored the maximized window and brought up the task-manager. I brought up the 'open' dialog box, browsed for solitaire, and there it was on the screen. Now, this may not be the best example (but it is a great story), but it demonstrates one thing. In an business environment, where the user is meant to be doin one task (or set of tasks) only, it is a big waste to give each user their own pc and OS. Besides cost, it also can be a security problem. With UNIX, a user can have an inexpensive dummy terminal, and the only whing running on his screen is his application (menu interface or whatnot). He cannot exit, he cannot reboot. There is no way for him to screw up (unless the programmer did already).

Ok, I gotta get back to VB programming, but I hope I showed you some things you did not realize about other OS's and the computer market.

[Cander]

And dont forget Delphi spetnik. A Vb like language you can do cross platform programming with as quickly as writting in VB. I am learning that now so I can move into more Linux programming incase my current job was to ever fall through I would have another option.