Bought my first Gun

[Shaggy Hiker]

Ok. I'd be fine with that, too, but how does that have anything to do with arrows starting fires?

[TysonLPrice]

This discussion does remind me how nuts you all are in the good old U S of A, (meant in the nicest possible way)

I don't know anyone who owns a gun (btw - air rifles don't count), I have never even met anyone who owns a gun , and when i walk down the street i can pretty much guarantee nobody has a gun.

Sometime you do hear about gun crime in the UK and it tends to go like this - some young gang member has shot another young gang member today in the poorest area in the city.

The average person will never and i mean never come into contact with a gun and i for one am quite happy about that i don't find my life of any less value because of it, in fact i barely think about it.

Your loss...we will still save you from the bad guys again though.

You and those cheese eating surrender monkeys across the channel

[homer13j]

Sometime you do hear about gun crime in the UK and it tends to go like this - some young gang member has shot another young gang member today in the poorest area in the city.

That happens here all the time - especially in cities where guns are strictly illegal, but our national media tend ignore every instance of inner city violence. Apparently American gun violence is only considered newsworthy when a demented white guy shoots up a suburban school, theater, or shopping center.

CSB: I happen to be a recovering member of the news media (you're never fully cured) and was once ordered to stop reporting on the rampant gang/drug violence in a local housing project because it was "scaring" our readers.

[SJWhiteley]

...

Sometime you do hear about gun crime in the UK and it tends to go like this - some young gang member has shot another young gang member today in the poorest area in the city.

...

That's pretty much sums up a majority of gun crime in the US as well.

[SJWhiteley]

Pick the right time of year and you can't even shoot a bow and arrow up here due to the fire hazard. That's not an exageration, either, though it sounds like it ought to be. I know somebody who barely got on top of the range fire they started when they missed a target and hit a rock with an arrow. That was all it took.

Must have been an assault bow...

[SJWhiteley]

...

The average person will never and i mean never come into contact with a gun and i for one am quite happy about that i don't find my life of any less value because of it, in fact i barely think about it.

I remember when I was in the Air Cadets. We would occasionally go shooting (is that an option now?). I loved it! It was rifles, of course. An SLR, british 303 and a 22 rifle of some kind. I recall the anal retentiveness about people being on the firing line, then they would open up the ammunition locker, count out rounds to each person. They would then make sure they counted the brass casings back into the locker.

I do honestly pity people in Britain. Having been assaulted and robbed in the UK several times, the only thing you can do is to come to terms with the fact that some people hold power over you and there is not a dmned thing you can do about it. But the reality is that courts and society do value your life less. But, life is more than just breathing air. I never really understood what the potential for life really is until I flew the Gilded Cage and came to the US.

You also have to realize that it's not just about guns. While guns are pretty damned good fun to those that like that sort of thing, it is also what they represent; and what they represent to other people. While a firearm is portrayed as an instrument of death - indeed, may liberals harp on the fact that 'a gun is primarily designed to kill someone or something' - and yet they are surprised, sunned and horrified when a gun [sic] has done just that. The real tragedy is the numerous everyday tools designed to NOT kill, maim or injure do just that, in far greater numbers than guns.

Honestly, it's not possible to explain the fascination of a powerful device to those who have never experienced it. I mean, look at the Honda owners clubs and the detail and lengths that go into their autos: Jesus H Christ, it's just a car! And a Honda, no less! People get into all sorts of things for different reasons (I'm sure there are Honda drivers that actually use their cars to simply drive to and from work, and use it as a matter of convenience).

Remember, when you come to the US, if you are in the majority of states, in a public place you may be surrounded by guns - or you may not. You will never know.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Unless you support the right to arm bears, I'm generally not surrounded by guns because of a lack of people.

The one thing that surprises me about the whole thing is the vociferous argument about requiring some training or licensing of gun owners. It is a device designed to kill, whereas a car is a device designed to transport. Both are quite effective at killing, but only one requires any significant license. We have ample evidence (correlation, not proof) that classes on hunting have reduced the incedence of accidental shootings and greatly improved the ethical considerations around hunting. You pretty much have to be trained if you want to use a gun to shoot a deer, but you don't need squat if you want to use a gun to shoot a person. That doesn't make sense to me.

Of course, it doesn't help with the news issue. That's all a man-bites-dog kind of a thing: If it happens a LOT, there's virtually no coverage. A person dying in a car accident barely makes the local news. A person dying in a boating accident around here (whitewater rafting) will certainly make the local news, and may be repeated a few times and there may be a few details. A plane crash, on the other hand, will make national news and may go on for a couple days (it's been a few years since a major commercial jet crash in the US). A nutcase shooting up a school will be on the news for weeks. There's no reasonable way to prevent things like that because they are SO rare that the false positives would dwarf the true finds for any test or restriction real or proposed. On the other hand, if you are so angry/depressed that you want to give the world the biggest, most visible, finger you possibly can....well, you have a blueprint on how to get the most exposure.

I'm not in favor of censorship of the press, but we'd probably be better off if school shootings got no more press than a car crash.

[TysonLPrice]

I don't like to think of it as a "fascination with guns" but the U.S. is a relatively new nation with close ties to guns throughout its short history. From the revolutionary war and the constitution protecting the right to own firearms, Indian wars, hunting for food and a living, the civil war, conquering the west, and so on Americans and guns are closely tied. As a side note I’m not making any statements about fighting the Indians, just that it happened.

In many ways guns are considered a tool. Maybe now that is a bit of an anachronism but I think it partly explains why many in the U.S. consider owning guns second nature.

I’m originally from western Pennsylvania. Everyone I knew growing up owned guns and many were on display in racks and cabinets in the living rooms. That is the way it was and I still stick with it. Times are changing and maybe that will go by the wayside. For now though I currently own four guns. About fifteen years ago I had well over forty, had a FFL, and it was quite a hobby for me. Most of my spare time was at gun shows and on the ranges.

[TysonLPrice]

I get to pick up my AR-15 tomorrow at 1300 so excited. Then I have to buy some .223 ammo. 1000 rounds for $600...

How did it go getting that ammo?

[kareninstructor]

As a side note, if anyone here is an NRA instructor CrimsonTrace gives discounts on their products.

[Shaggy Hiker]

FFL, and it was quite a hobby for me.

I have no idea what FFL stands for, and I can't be bothered to think to much about it in context. Therefore, in the best internet tradition I'm going to make up my own meaning for that TLA and respond to that meaning in some way. Let's see....I think I'll go with French Female Lover, and say: That can be an expensive hobby to maintain from western PA.

[TysonLPrice]

I have no idea what FFL stands for, and I can't be bothered to think to much about it in context. Therefore, in the best internet tradition I'm going to make up my own meaning for that TLA and respond to that meaning in some way. Let's see....I think I'll go with French Female Lover, and say: That can be an expensive hobby to maintain from western PA.

Federal Firearms Licence. It allows you to sell guns to the general public. I should add "legally sell guns"...

[Shaggy Hiker]

My definition is better.

[TysonLPrice]

My definition is better.

Probably more fun anyway...

[dclamp]

How did it go getting that ammo?

I haven't had a chance to buy it yet. Going this weekend probably.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Will your shopping list be considered a bulleted list?

Are you going to buy ammo in round numbers?

You might have to wait around for them to get a new shipment, in which case you could be casing the casing joint. After all, they only get more when they 'get a round' to it.

I still think you should get a shotgun, then find some sleazy ammo peddler. That way you can shell to the shill who's shilling shells.

Gotta go.

[TysonLPrice]

Will your shopping list be considered a bulleted list?

Are you going to buy ammo in round numbers?

You might have to wait around for them to get a new shipment, in which case you could be casing the casing joint. After all, they only get more when they 'get a round' to it.

I still think you should get a shotgun, then find some sleazy ammo peddler. That way you can shell to the shill who's shilling shells.

Gotta go.

I think in each case he'll get more bang for his buck...

[Shaggy Hiker]

Well, if he's into deer hunting, he should really practice up on his aiming. That way, he'll be able to get more buck for his bang.

[dclamp]

Well, if he's into deer hunting, he should really practice up on his aiming. That way, he'll be able to get more buck for his bang.

This one wins.

[TysonLPrice]

This one wins.

Yes...bang up job and right on target.

[Witis]

Well, if he's into deer hunting, he should really practice up on his aiming.

I don't think aiming is that important for deer hunting, and who would want to hunt deer anyway??? On the other hand having a really good aim is essential for alligator hunting as the skull design makes the target very small, miss it and you'll get a face full of bone fragments or shrapnel!

[TysonLPrice]

I don't think aiming is that important for deer hunting, and who would want to hunt deer anyway??? On the other hand having a really good aim is essential for alligator hunting as the skull design makes the target very small, miss it and you'll get a face full of bone fragments or shrapnel!

Deer hunting is huge in certain parts of the U.S. If you need to know why let me know. Also aim is always important if you want to minimize suffering.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Aim is important if you care about what you hit....unless you hunt in certain areas I know about where you can walk right up to the deer, but there's no hunting in those areas for various reasons.

As for why somebody would want to hunt a deer: I don't know the answer to that. I've tried deer from various parts of the country, along with elk, moose, bear, and a variety of other game. You can make deer palatable, in my opinion, but it's not something I'd seek out.

[Witis]

Deer hunting is huge in certain parts of the U.S. If you need to know why let me know.

Ok, why do you like to hunt deer???

[Witis]

As for why somebody would want to hunt a deer: I don't know the answer to that. I've tried deer from various parts of the country, along with elk, moose, bear, and a variety of other game. You can make deer palatable, in my opinion, but it's not something I'd seek out.

Do you have to shoot it yourself or go to a hunting reservation to get a sit down meal of venison, or can you pick some out from your local butcher/supermarket???

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't hunt, myself, for no reason that can be summed up here. I tried a couple times, then gave up. It basically comes down to there not being enough days in a life to cover all the things that can be done, so I just set my priorities in other places. However, I have lots of friends that hunt, and people seem oddly willing to share a deer (maybe nobody else is all that thrilled with venison, either). I wouldn't bother hunting deer, anyways, because I've never found them to be very good. Elk is much better, and moose is terrific, but hunting moose is pretty restricted.

In the eastern US, where all the other predators have been largely wiped out, the deer herd has overpopulated some areas to crazy levels. There are parts of Pennsylvania where you can see a browse line in the forest, which is the highest level that a deer can reach. They've eaten EVERYTHING below that line, including things you wouldn't think they could tolerate. Still, I don't think they taste good enough to bother hunting, and the hunters don't seem all that effective, to me. Venison can be made into jerky or sausage and it's pretty good, but that's kind of cheating. After all, if you add enough spices, you could probably eat a boot and call it good.

I don't know of any place that sells venison, though. There might be some somewhere, but you'd generally have to harvest it yourself, or get some from somebody else.

[Witis]

Aim is important if you care about what you hit

You would also need good aim to shoot a rattle snake with a hand gun!

[Witis]

In the eastern US, where all the other predators have been largely wiped out, the deer herd has overpopulated some areas to crazy levels.

Do you mean like humans in some parts of the world???

There are parts of Pennsylvania where you can see a browse line in the forest, which is the highest level that a deer can reach. They've eaten EVERYTHING below that line, including things you wouldn't think they could tolerate.

Perhaps they could be reemployed as lawnmowers as an alternative vocation?

Still, I don't think they taste good enough to bother hunting, and the hunters don't seem all that effective, to me. Venison can be made into jerky or sausage and it's pretty good, but that's kind of cheating. After all, if you add enough spices, you could probably eat a boot and call it good.

However, would you go moose or elk on a regular basis if you were given the opportunity given that you seem endeared with the flavour?

[TysonLPrice]

Ok, why do you like to hunt deer???

Never hunted deer in my life. Like some many other things you post you have read into\assumed more than was said. Being from western Pennsylvania and currently in Ohio I am aware of how popular it is. In western PA some schools close for the first day of deer season and so do some businessees. There are different seasons like doe, arrows only, etc. so it's not just going out and shooting a deer. There is the outdoors stalking part of it, the primal hunting instincts, eating the deer although I would agree most ends up jerky. Also as posted many of the deer would starve to death without hunting season.

There is much more too it than my quick blurb. I'd be happy to post more if you really care.

[Witis]

Never hunted deer in my life. Like some many other things you post you have read into\assumed more than was said.

Nah, I just asked you directly when you said deer hunting is huge in parts of the U.S!

Being from western Pennsylvania and currently in Ohio I am aware of how popular it is.

Is there a chain of venison fast food outlets???

In western PA some schools close for the first day of deer season and so do some businessees.

How young are the youngest children who go deer hunting?

There are different seasons like doe, arrows only, etc. so it's not just going out and shooting a deer.

I find the arrow part hard to believe, isn't it merely about making an easy kill and getting food that can't fight back on the table as quickly as possible???

There is the outdoors stalking part of it, the primal hunting instincts

You make it sound like you have done some of it yourself!!!

, eating the deer

Do you like the taste?

although I would agree most ends up jerky.

I always thought beef was the primary jerky available.

Also as posted many of the deer would starve to death without hunting season.

Are you saying that you wouldn't approve of using deer instead of lawnmowers in your local neighborhood?

There is much more too it than my quick blurb. I'd be happy to post more if you really care.

Although it was quick, do go on!!!

[Shaggy Hiker]

Do you mean like humans in some parts of the world???

I suppose so. It's a bit hard to say, though. We can produce enough food for all of us, though we don't distribute it correctly for all people.

Perhaps they could be reemployed as lawnmowers as an alternative vocation?

Hedge trimmer would be more likely. I don't even know if deer eat grass. They tend to eat shrubs and LOTS of garden plants, both edible and ornamental. They seem to only trample rosemary, though.

However, would you go moose or elk on a regular basis if you were given the opportunity given that you seem endeared with the flavour?

No. I like beef, too, but I eat it only a few times a year, so there's not much chance that I'd eat moose or elk regularly, either.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Is there a chain of venison fast food outlets???

No. There's no commercial venison industry in the country, as far as I know. A hunter can get some number of deer based on the state, the hunt, and so forth, but the number is never very high, and the cost of the tag is somewhat significant. I believe a person who has legally taken a deer could exchange some portion of the meet with somebody else for cash, but there would be other regulations on posession which would make it more difficult. For one thing, the harvester would probably have to provide transfer documentation for the consumer to show that the deer was taken legally. I should probably know those rules in greater detail, but I don't. There may even be states where the rules are more lax, but I REALLy don't get involved with that.

How young are the youngest children who go deer hunting?

That probably depends on the state.

I find the arrow part hard to believe, isn't it merely about making an easy kill and getting food that can't fight back on the table as quickly as possible???

No. Bow hunters are kind of like fly fishermen. In fact, all the bow hunters I know are also fly fisherman. For them, it doesn't seem to be so much a question of putting meat on the table, but how it is done. There's a greater level of skill needed for bow hunting, since the range is FAR less, so it appeals to certain types of people.

I always thought beef was the primary jerky available.

It is by FAR. Hunters generally take game to a game processing operation where it is cut up into steaks, roasts, burger, sausage, jerky, or whatever. Since the jerky isn't sold, the amount is vastly less than commercially produced beef jerky. Technically, you should be able to make jerky out of nearly any meat, and some other types of food, but I only know of beef, venison, elk, and salmon.

Are you saying that you wouldn't approve of using deer instead of lawnmowers in your local neighborhood?

Goats would work better than deer. I know of at least one house in my neighborhood that uses goats for lawn control.

[Witis]

I suppose so. It's a bit hard to say, though. We can produce enough food for all of us, though we don't distribute it correctly for all people.

Apparently India looks like it has a definite problem in that area with projections to 2030 looking like that (population growing 25%):

01	02	+1	 India (demographics)	1,523,482,000	1,224,614,000	+24.4%
02	01	−1	 China (demographics)	1,393,076,000	1,341,335,000	+3.9%

source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project...ulation_growth

Especially with India being approximately 1/3 the size of China!
India's area = 3,287,263 km2/ 1,269,219 sq mi
China's area =9,706,961 km2/3,747,879 sq mi

Hedge trimmer would be more likely.

Lawnmower and hedge trimmer, it just keeps getting better!

I don't even know if deer eat grass.

I just watched a video of a deer eating grass, so yes!

They tend to eat shrubs and LOTS of garden plants, both edible and ornamental.

So you can also add pruning to their job list too!

They seem to only trample rosemary, though.

Strange, perhaps it has something to do with them having too many stag parties???

No. I like beef, too, but I eat it only a few times a year,

Why only a few times a year?

so there's not much chance that I'd eat moose or elk regularly, either.

Although if you could choose between beef, elk, or moose what would you prefer (when you eat that sort of meat)?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Why only a few times a year?

Hard to say. I don't make a point of it, that's just how it works out. Most of the meat I eat is chicken, with fish being second.

Although if you could choose between beef, elk, or moose what would you prefer (when you eat that sort of meat)?

Whichever is in front of me is pretty much my favorite. Now that I think about it, though, the only steaks I have ever eaten have been beef, while the other two have always been in some kind of context rather than just as a slab of meat. That makes for an invalid comparison, since the preparations have been different in all meaningful cases.

[Witis]

No. There's no commercial venison industry in the country, as far as I know.

I guess that must push up the price of venison in fancy restaurants?

That probably depends on the state.

Are there any that you know of that allow primary school aged folks to go a hunting?

No. Bow hunters are kind of like fly fishermen. In fact, all the bow hunters I know are also fly fisherman. For them, it doesn't seem to be so much a question of putting meat on the table, but how it is done. There's a greater level of skill needed for bow hunting, since the range is FAR less, so it appeals to certain types of people.

Do you mean that it is acceptable to kill a deer as long as there is more skill involved e.g bow and arrow, blowpipes, or spear?

It is by FAR. Hunters generally take game to a game processing operation where it is cut up into steaks, roasts, burger, sausage, jerky, or whatever. Since the jerky isn't sold, the amount is vastly less than commercially produced beef jerky. Technically, you should be able to make jerky out of nearly any meat, and some other types of food, but I only know of beef, venison, elk, and salmon.

Salmon jerky, now that's right on and delectable, I'll have to hunt some down!

Goats would work better than deer. I know of at least one house in my neighborhood that uses goats for lawn control.

I guess it would depend on the size of the grassed area you have to maintain!

[Witis]

Hard to say. I don't make a point of it, that's just how it works out. Most of the meat I eat is chicken, with fish being second.

What no hamburgers or steaks???

Whichever is in front of me is pretty much my favorite.

So, as yet, it seems that you are not that much of a connoisseur.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I guess that must push up the price of venison in fancy restaurants?

Probably, if there are any that have it on the menu.

Are there any that you know of that allow primary school aged folks to go a hunting?

What age is that? I think the answer is no, but I'm not sure what age ranges that would be.

Do you mean that it is acceptable to kill a deer as long as there is more skill involved e.g bow and arrow, blowpipes, or spear?

No. There are just people out there who try to make it harder on themselves. Bow hunting is one level, but traditional bow hunting (no compound bows) is a subset within the bow hunting crowd. It's just people trying to do things a bit different.

[Shaggy Hiker]

So, as yet, it seems that you are not that much of a connoisseur.

Nobody has ever accused me of that.

[Witis]

Probably, if there are any that have it on the menu.

Would you order venison if it was available on the menu?

What age is that? I think the answer is no, but I'm not sure what age ranges that would be.

I would guess primary school age to be approximately 5-12 years old. I ask as I have seen some guns and bullet proof vests made and advertised specifically for youngsters in the U.S.

Do you mean that it is acceptable to kill a deer as long as there is more skill involved e.g bow and arrow, blowpipes, or spear?

No.

Did you just change your mind? Are you now indicating that it is not acceptable to kill a deer under any circumstances even if they are killed by weapons that require a high degree of skill such as the traditional bow you just mentioned, a blowpipe or spear? What about a foot race to determine which animal has superior endurance; would it be ok to kill a deer if it collapses from exhaustion after being chased by one or more men?

[Shaggy Hiker]

You have an odd way of taking an answer and formulating a question for it. You asked "Do you mean..." My answer was No, because what you then stated was not even close to what I meant. I was answering the question you asked, not the one you meant to ask. I wasn't putting some kind of value judgement on whether or not it is acceptable to kill a deer in any way, I was saying that there are people who only hunt deer with bows, and they do that to make it more challenging. That's not a question of whether or not it is acceptable, it's just how they are.

If primary school gets you up to 12, then I have no doubt that there are places where you can hunt at that age, though you probably can only hunt when accompanied by an adult. I haven't paid attention to the minimum age, and don't feel like looking it up.

Your mention of the footrace is kind of interesting, as there was a guy who wrote a book about attempting that with antelope. I believe the title is "Running After Antelope". He was a marathon runner who thought that humans may have hunted by simply outlasting animals, as you suggest. The idea is that we are well designed for endurance running, while lots of animals will overheat and shut down if they run long enough. If I remember correctly, he was unable to run down an antelope, even with the help of his brother. The antelope didn't have to keep running, it would sprint for a distance then stop. The two of them were unable to keep it running continually, so it always had a chance to recover between runs. Different species of deer use different evasion strategies, so running may work for some of them, but I doubt it. They are all so much faster than people that they can all use the same strategy that the antelope used to keep from tiring. Dogs can run down deer because they have the speed to keep the deer running, but we just aren't fast enough.

EDIT: As to whether or not I would order it if it was on the menu: Have you not been reading, or not been paying attention. I thought I had stated three times that I didn't much like venison, but I can only find two of the statements, so I must have edited one out. Oddly, you actually quoted one of the statements. So, if I have stated repeatedly that I don't find venison appealing, why would I ever order it?