Norway beckons... should I go? <Serious>

[FunkyDexter]

I want some serious opinions on a personal matter. If folks want to have some fun in the thread that's great... as long as I get some serious opinions alongside the jollity because this is actually a really important issue to me. Possibly I'm just creating the thread as a brain dump to help me externalise all the stuff that's worrying me, I'm not sure. I got some good advice on here once before when I was considering leaving a job I really liked and I reckon I'll probably get some good advice on here again.

I've got an offer to work in Norway for a year and the offer is: name your price. Obviously they'll have a ceiling in mind but suffice it to say that I can probably get over 1.5 times as much as I'll get in the UK. The money will be GOOD. It seems like a golden opportunity but I'm not sure, I've moved away for work before and it was an absolute disaster. Here's the pros and cons that are going through my head in no particular order:-

• The money... obviously.
• I don't have any intention of creating a new life in Norway. I like my life where it is in grotty old Southampton. It's like the slightly smelly duvet I curl up on the couch with - it's grotty and noboody else can understand why I like it but I do and it's mine.
• I doubt it will actually be for a full year. At the risk of being pompous I've got a track record of delivering big wins quickly. I think it's because I'm good at understanding businesses and the way they work as well as understanding tech so I'm able to spot the oppportunities and deliver on them without getting bogged down in distractions. They basically have a shopping list of benefits they'd like in descending order of importantance. I'm think I could offer to commit to them for 6 months, deliver the top stuff and then come back or stay on depending on how much stuff left outstanding and whether or not I'm happy out there.
• I know and like the company I'd be working for. I've done a couple of stints out there previously (but those were only a few weeks at a time) so I know the situation I'd be walking in to and know it's decent. I wouldn't really class them as freinds and I can't really see myself going out and getting drunk with them but we get along well and I like them.
• I don't know anyone in Norway other than the people I'd be working with and I don't have a partner so I'd really be on my own.
• It would mean leaving my support network behind. This is important to me. I'm not someone who makes freinds easily and I really value the freinds I've got. Experiences in the past have taught me that when I need them to be there I REALLY need them to be there.
• I did move away for work before and it was a disaster... and that was only within the UK! It was pretty serious, though, and put me in a massive depression. My family were actually quite worried I'd do something stupid to myself and actually ended up intervening to bring me home. At the risk of being melodramatic they were probably right to be worried too. That's scary but I'm not sure this is the same. That time I was recruited for a development company that also had a shop front selling components. When I got there they didn't actually have any development work for me so shoved me on a till in the shop. I was paid as a developer but it was still horribly diss-spiriting. Also the boss was an out and out psycho who everyone was terrified of and two weeks after I got there the bailifs turned up and walked out with the till because he hadn't paid his parking fines. That job was a total knightmare and I know this one won't be like that but it's still a scarey memory that's stayed with me.
• They'll sort me out a decent apartment and car for the duration of my stay so I'll be "living for free" but that's not quite true. I've got a house in Southampton and a mortgage that's still going to need to be paid. I might be able to rent it out while I'm away but as I'm gone for a year or less I may not be able to. Realistically it'll probably be a case of finding a freind who needs somewhere rather than formally renting to a tenant.
• The job's in Gjovik which has the biggest climbing wall in Norway. I love climbing and, realistically, if I'm going to form a social circle outside of work that's where it's probably going to happen.
• There's a ski resort just up the road so I'll get plenty of snow-boarding time.
• It's doing Axapta development which isn't really where I see my career going but at the same time there's always Axapta contracts cropping up and it would be a nice skill to have on my CV. I've done some Axapta development before and know I've got the skills but they were all small side projects so don't really make it onto the CV. This would put it squarely on there.
• I've got two cats. I love my cats. They're fluffy and warm and like cuddlin'. I think I could take them with me but I'm not sure and need to find out. If I had to leave them behind that would be a huge negative.

I think that's the lot and as I read that list back I'm realising that this comes down to an emotional vs a coldly logical mindset. The logical thing to do is to go. I'd make loads of dosh and substantially improve my profile profile. The emotional thing to do is to stay in my comfortable little rut where I know I'm safe and warm. I like my rut.

So what to do?

[TysonLPrice]

I'd like to know how old you are but just based on what you posted I'd say "go for it". I've been in similar situations only not having to leave the U.S. It was all very scary for me but now it is a war story I like to tell.

Are there language barrier considerations here?

[FunkyDexter]

I'd like to know how old you are

41

Are there language barrier considerations here?

Yes and No. I don't speak Norwegian but Norwegians all speak English. They're all taught it in school and most of their TV is in English so literally everyone speaks it. So I won't have communication issues as such but it will probably tend to leave me as an outsider if I'm in a group as then they'll proabably all speak in Norwegian.

[homer13j]

You had me until you mentioned Axapta and the cats. I absolutely hated Axapta programming and I wouldn't consider abandoning any animal I ever adopted. Make them guarantee that it's okay to have cats in that apartment.

And make sure your homeowner's insurance policy will cover an empty house if you can't rent it out.

Good luck with whatever decision you make.

[TysonLPrice]

Ruts can be nice and it is human nature to want to be comfortable and avoid stress. When it is said and done I think you'll be better for doing it. Cats are a lot tougher than you might think.

I feel like I was in my prime at 41...I still say go for it. Work out a plan B to get back quickly if that makes you feel better. Or be like Cortez...burn the ships so you have to go forward

[FunkyDexter]

I absolutely hated Axapta programming

Yeah, it's certainly not my favourite and I wouldn't want to get stuck as an Axapta developer for the rest of my career. I don't have a problem doing it for a year, though, and it would be handy on the CV to fill gaps between contracts.

I wouldn't consider abandoning any animal I ever adopted

At worst I might give them to my family to look after but I think a years too long even for that. After a year it wouldn't really be fair to take them back. Realistically I think not being able to take them would probably be a deal breaker for me. BTW, one of them looks exactly like your avatar... only a bit less surprised.

And make sure your homeowner's insurance policy will cover an empty house if you can't rent it out.

Good point and one I hadn't considered. It wouldn't be difficult to arrange though.

[FunkyDexter]

Work out a plan B to get back quickly if that makes you feel better

Realistically plan B is just: come home. I wouldn't want to let the client down, though, so the intention would be to see it through.

[FunkyDexter]

Oddly enough BBC News has an article on just the sort thing I'm worried about.

Homesickness. I think I actually suffer very badly from it and that's probably what's driving my fear.

[InvisibleDuncan]

Too much free time is the biggest cause of homesickness, I think.

You'll need to think about what you'll do with your leisure time. You mentioned the climbing wall, which would be great but probably wouldn't be something you could do on a daily basis. Remember that you'll have to fill every evening and weekend, and that might be difficult to do. It depends on what you enjoy doing: if you're happiest settling down with a book every evening, then that's something you can do anywhere. If you like to sit in front of the TV, be sure that enough of their TV is in English (I know you've mentioned it, but check that it's not dubbed). However, if most of your evenings and weekends are filled by going out with friends or popping down to your local Games Workshop for a spot of Warhammer, you might find that your free time stretches out when you're somewhere where you don't know anyone.

Oh - one last thing. You're as far south as you can get in the UK, so think about how you'll cope being that far north, with all the daylight in the summer and all the darkness in the winter. At midsummer the sun will be up from about 3:45 - 23:00 (can make sleeping a problem), but at midwinter it'll only be up from 9:00 - 15:00, so all your free time will be in the dark. Would you be happy with that?

[Shaggy Hiker]

First off, the money is meaningless. So you get a bump in pay. If you are only staying for a year it won't make a bit of difference in the long term. The total added value of the move can be calculated fairly explicitly, and the value of the move is that sum of money minus the added expenses of the move, which there will be some. If you were considering this long term, then the calculation would be different because it would increase your average income and have retirement ramifications, but for a one year stint it is basically just a single bonus payment.

You'd have to take the cats. After all, if you did not, they would kill you in your sleep as soon as your returned home. Cats are like that. They are patient, careful, plotters, but predictably both relentless and ruthless (do you know anybody named Ruth? No? Of course you don,t. The cats took care of that).

Other than that, I'd be inclined to go for it. I may not be a very good person to listen to on this, though, considering that I wander off into the woods for weeks (and it would be months if I could get the time) on end. In my case, I work for a single company, and have for some 16 years. I could EASILY increase my pay by going elsewhere, but no other job would be likely to be so enjoyable, nor would it be possible to find better coworkers, so I tend to be be quite loyal and would not, myself, take such a job as this one. However, you have mentioned before that you do contract work, so you don't have the bounds of loyalty to deal with (at least not loyalty to a particular set of colleagues or a particular company). You probably don't have any built-up, company-centric, long-term investing to deal with. This makes life more flexible for you when it comes to the job. Therefore, as long as the cats can go, and as long as you feel that the stint would really be only about a year, then I'd say you might as well go for it. If it doesn't work out then you'll know something important. On the other hand, right now you have a study with N=1 as far as working away from your comfort base, so a second data point would be worth obtaining.

[FunkyDexter]

You mentioned the climbing wall, which would be great but probably wouldn't be something you could do on a daily basis

I currently go indoors 2 or 3 evenings a week and outdoors most weekends. It's not daily but it would use up alot of my time.

It depends on what you enjoy doing

I'm pretty happy playing PC games and TV when I'm not out doing something more active so I'd probably be OK on that front. Most TV is English and there's always services like NetFlix to fill in the gaps. I actually don't think I'll struggle that much to fill the time if I want to.

I think what's more worrying to me is not seeing my freinds. We get together quite alot. We climb together, I often throw dinner parties and BBQs, that sort thing. It won't be difficult for me to fill the time I'd nomally be spending with them... but I won't be spending time with them. That's going to hurt I think. I like to know what's going on with them and I like to unload my day on them. That's the stuff I'm going to miss.

with all the daylight in the summer and all the darkness in the winter

Hmmm, that's an important point and something I hadn't considered. I imagine the daylight summers won't be too bad, they'll have black out blinds and shutters for that. The nighttime winters might be more of an issue though. I think I'll be OK with that but I don't know for sure.

[FunkyDexter]

You'd have to take the cats. After all, if you did not, they would kill you in your sleep as soon as your returned home.

Yep. Mine are called Micky and Mallory after the characters from Natural Born Killers. It seemed apt.

You probably don't have any built-up, company-centric, long-term investing to deal with.

That's true. I actually probably feel more loyalty to the company in Norway than I do to the contract I'm currently on because I've worked for them several times before.

On the other hand, right now you have a study with N=1 as far as working away from your comfort base, so a second data point would be worth obtaining.

Yeah. The last time was such a bad experience that it still plays out in my mind but it probably was exceptional and I probably overplay it in my mind. The job was so bad that I reallly needed my freinds, right when they weren't available. I could cope with a bad job as long as I had my freinds to lean on. I could probably cope with not seeing my freinds so much if the job had been OK. But the combination of having a horrible job and not having my freinds to support me was really horrible.

[techgnome]

1) the prior bad experience was probably an outlier... it's part of the deviation set rather than the norm.
2) I'd also ensure that the contract has an adequate out clause, incase something isn't a expected or promised, or if it turns into such a deal... considering you've worked with them before, they probably know what they are getting and it's what they want, so it's less likely they're going to mess with you.
3) See if maybe they're open to a compromise, where you telecommute part of the time, then travel into their offices the rest of the time... say, for every 6 weeks, you make the trek in for a week or two... 6 out, 2 in...
It never hurts to ask.

-tg

[dilettante]

Just study up on wood and woodcutting. I hear they're really into the subject and neighbors can argue for hours of the merits of stacking split wood bark up vs. bark down.

[dunfiddlin]

stacking split wood bark up vs. bark down.

Only a fool would think there's a choice!

[Witis]

Yep. Mine are called Micky and Mallory after the characters from Natural Born Killers. It seemed apt.

Isn't Micky the name of a mouse???

[sapator]

My opinion coming from my frame of mind.
If you are not in serious need of the money then don't go. Here in Greece everyone is leaving like rats in a sinking ship because we are such idiots that we voted for our executioners (their time will come). I personally staying and suffer all the consequences because, well it's the best country in the world regarding climate and views but i wouldn't leave even if we had better economy because Norway sounds, well, 'cold' . Don't take it personally but i also hated English climate and habits when i studied there but at least you get to see the sun. So that sums it up for the climatic point of view. Now for the monetary point of view. You said 1.5 more money? That is not much You also said "I know and like the company I'd be working for." That for me is the biggest plus. I haven't found yet a company that i like working for (don't know, blame it on me but i couldn't stand most of the people i have worked with) and if i ever found one i would gladly go even if the money are not adequate so i can avoid my usual 'rage attacks'. Not joking here, i was pushed to the limit some times and they paid badly (i got fired but i loved it).
Anyhow i personally would have gone.Especially to cold climate countries.

[FunkyDexter]

1) the prior bad experience was probably an outlier... it's part of the deviation set rather than the norm.
2) I'd also ensure that the contract has an adequate out clause, incase something isn't a expected or promised, or if it turns into such a deal... considering you've worked with them before, they probably know what they are getting and it's what they want, so it's less likely they're going to mess with you.
3) See if maybe they're open to a compromise, where you telecommute part of the time, then travel into their offices the rest of the time... say, for every 6 weeks, you make the trek in for a week or two... 6 out, 2 in...

1. I think you're right. It was a really bad experience which is probably amplifying it's importance in my mind but it was primarily driven by walking into a bad job. I know (or at least I'm pretty damn sure) that this would be a good job.
2. I don't think I need an explicit out clause, just the usual ability to give notice and leave if I have to. I'm pretty confident that if I want to bail it will be for personal rather than professional reasons. Actually, that's one of the more troubling aspects because I know it would be me letting them down rather than the other way round and I take quite a lot of pride in my professionalism (despite the impression I may give in CC ).
3. Actually I already do odds and sods for them from home and have been for about 3 years so the idea's well established. I'm pretty sure this would need to be on site though which is why they want me to come over. I was talking to freinds last night though (we were out climbing... again) and the opposite aproach might work. I could come back for a week every month or so. It would mean keeping my house empty which is slightly worrying but I've got good neighbours who'd keep an eye on it and I could install timed lights etc so it looked occupied.

I hear they're really into the subject and neighbors can argue for hours of the merits of stacking split wood bark up vs. bark down.

A bit like us Brits with Tea then. The milk goes in first and I'll fight any man that says otherwise. And don't give me none of that crap about tea pots either.

If you are not in serious need of the money then don't go

I don't need it. Without going in to detail I earn very well as a contractor. I don't have particularly lavish tastes either so I already make plenty enough. On the other hand, there are a few projects I'd like to pursure (the most obvious one being to finish a marketting/CRM package I've been working on for a few years) which would involve me taking 6 months or so off from paid work... this could set me up to be able to do that.

Norway sounds, well, 'cold'

Yep. Very cold. Actually it's not bad, though, because it's a dry cold so you tend not to feel it. I've been over there in teh heart of winter and it's pretty bearable.

[techgnome]

Just study up on wood and woodcutting. I hear they're really into the subject and neighbors can argue for hours of the merits of stacking split wood bark up vs. bark down.

Only a fool would think there's a choice!

Everybody knows it's Bark to the side!

-tg

[InvisibleDuncan]

I think what's more worrying to me is not seeing my freinds. We get together quite alot. We climb together, I often throw dinner parties and BBQs, that sort thing. It won't be difficult for me to fill the time I'd nomally be spending with them... but I won't be spending time with them. That's going to hurt I think. I like to know what's going on with them and I like to unload my day on them. That's the stuff I'm going to miss.

Can you spend time with them online? You said you're a bit of a gamer, so if you're playing online versions with them on the other end of the headset, that's a reasonable substitute. Much more natural than phoning or using Skype.

Even if you can't get them to agree to the three weeks there, one week here model, how difficult financially/logistically would it be to come back for a long weekend every few weeks? Is there an Easyjet route nearby?

[NeedSomeAnswers]

When would you be going FD?

My cousin lives in Norway, and he loves it although from what i understand it can take a bit of getting used to the almost constant sunlight during the summer months - the sun barely sets in the hight of summer and the reverse is true during the hight of winter with the Sun barely rising.

My cousin has lived in Bergen for about 6 years now, and i know he really likes the Norwegian people and enjoys living out there.

Personally i would edge towards going as you would get to experience a completely new culture and country, as you said it wont be permanent, and its not exactly far away on a plane if you want/need to come back to the UK.

Obviously really all you need to ask yourself is does the thought of going excite you at all or fill you with dread?

If you do go, join a Climbing club!!!

[FunkyDexter]

Can you spend time with them online?

Yes but that wouldn't really suit me. I'm one of those people who thinks any step away from face to face contact is a barrier. I prefer seeing someone to phoning them, I prefer phoning them to email and I prefer email to the likes of facebook. Video calls through skype will help but nothings going to replace the ability to sit down to dinner together as a group.

how difficult financially/logistically would it be to come back for a long weekend every few weeks?

I think that's probably do-able and the money will comfortably cover the cost. It's only actually about 3 hours travelling time each way as well so not a massive burden.

When would you be going FD?

Nothing's agreed yet but probably mid-August. My current contract finishes on the 26th July and I'm planning a bit of a road trip round France for a week straight after that. Add in a week or so to get myself organised and mid-August sounds most likely.

If you do go, join a Climbing club!!!

Believe me, that's top of the agenda. I know that if I go over there and don't form some sort of social circle outside of work I'd be utterly miserable but climbing's a big part of my life and climbers are generally a sociable and easy going bunch. Normally I'd just look for a belaying partner but in this circumstance joining a club is probably a much better way to go.

Obviously really all you need to ask yourself is does the thought of going excite you at all or fill you with dread?

Both... that's the problem I think if I hadn't had such a bad experience previously I'd be leaping around with joy right now and I probably shouldn't be letting that experience colour my thinking so much. On that basis, and on the basis of the comments here as well as the conversations I had with my freinds last night I'm swinging quite strongly towards going (as long as eveything gets the final stamp of aproval of course). I haven't had a chance to talk to my family yet and I need to have a drunken "deep and meaningful" with my regular belaying partner because she always sets my mind right.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Did your friends slap you with a dead fish? That's what I always threaten people with around here. If they aren't close, I threaten to mail them one. It's happened. There's nothing quite like walking into your office and finding that the guy who left last Friday mis-filed a perch under B in your records, and it has gone unnoticed through a warm three day weekend. That kind of filing error doesn't go unnoticed for long, though (his filing may have had something to do with me changing his locale to France, which reversed all the dates in the report he was rushing to finish on his last day).

[FunkyDexter]

Did your friends slap you with a dead fish? That's what I always threaten people with around here. If they aren't close, I threaten to mail them one. It's happened. There's nothing quite like walking into your office and finding that the guy who left last Friday mis-filed a perch under B in your records, and it has gone unnoticed through a warm three day weekend. That kind of filing error doesn't go unnoticed for long, though (his filing may have had something to do with me changing his locale to France, which reversed all the dates in the report he was rushing to finish on his last day).

I have no idea what any of that was about.

It does raise another worry though. I don't like fish. If I spend a year in Norway I might starve to death.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I was riffing on the theme of your friends encouraging you to go. Some forms of encouragement are more direct than others. Aside from that, it was just chit-chat nonsense.

[dunfiddlin]

If I spend a year in Norway I might starve to death.

I'm sorry? Would you be travelling back in time to the 17th Century as well?

[sapator]

Don't think food would be the problem. I've studied in UK and the food was so bad i had to eat the basics. Rice, Pasta, chicken all cooked at home and a lot of ice cream. Anything else was a call for the toilet. Ah and fish sticks, although fish is not my thing but they were imported.
We could not drink water from the city network because of a pollution issue posted to the city (aka if you drink you die). So i bet the food there would be at least adequate.
They don't even had cheese pie, how do you survive without cheese pie (da proper cheese pie)?
P.S. i don't like fish either and that's unfortunate cuz we have 100340924 fish species here but i can eat squid or octopus or swordfish so...
Ok now i'm hungry.

[dilettante]

Cheese pie? Somehow I'm picturing some sort of quiche or maybe pizza with feta and spinich but no tomato sauce.

[sapator]

Not very close. I don't blame you. The Greek term is "Tiropita" and is crusty outside filled with cheese. You can google for "tiropita images". I suppose it may have feta or a finite amount of cheese types and maybe, rarely, spinach but never with tomato sauce or pizza(how?). It's not a pie in the actual term but is probably untranslated, like kokorretsi or mousaka or souvlaki or falafel (that is not Greek but i globalized the input).
P.S. My aunt makes a tiropita with 4 different cheese types and with extra crusty zyme and i probably gain 3 kilos the day i consume it.

[dunfiddlin]

Cheese in filo pastry then? We'd call 'em cheese puffs.

[sapator]

Are you joking? http://www.google.com/search?q=chees...w=1920&bih=952
I ain't talking about that ****** catering puffs. So obvious when a guy haven't had tiropita in his life or you wouldn't have compared to Mr's puff.

[dee-u]

While at it, you should go looking for NoteMe

[dunfiddlin]

While at it, you should go looking for NoteMe

I really can't decide whether this is great but arcane wisdom which I am not worthy to understand or simply the Non-Sequitur Of The Year!

[InvisibleDuncan]

I've studied in UK... We could not drink water from the city network because of a pollution issue posted to the city (aka if you drink you die).

Really? I'd have expected it to make the news if our water supply was killing people.

[FunkyDexter]

I'd have expected it to make the news if our water supply was killing people

Yeah, that one surprised me too but I just assumed he was referring to some localised incident that subseuqnetly got cleaned up.

you should go looking for NoteMe

It would be like the search for Dr Livingstone.

[InvisibleDuncan]

Maybe search for peet instead.

[sapator]

It was an incident and they had to clean the water. If i remember this was for a month or so but it's been 7-8 years or so, so i can't be exact.
Anyhow blame it to my sensitive stomach but whenever i drunk water there i vomited, so i was drinking mineral water from known Greek labels (they had them at Tesco).

[dunfiddlin]

Psychosomatic! That's a Greek word!

[sapator]

See. It's really fun.
Of vomit from Latin vomitāre or Emetos from greek emetos εμετός, or here is a cool word:
Emetophobia from Greek emetos and Greek φόβος (phóbos) . That should be a good band title!

[sapator]

Programming. From Greek word programma (Πρόγραμμα )