Should Soccer Replace Football?

[Witis]

Soccer is civilised notwithstanding some of the criminal persuasions of some of the fans;
where as football is a ubiquitously violent and stupid sport which should be banned.
What do you think?

[dclamp]

Should apples replace Oranges?

Apples are delicious and oranges can sometimes be sour or squirt in your eye.

[opus]

What?
I guess the question should read: Should Soccer Replace American Football?
Since Football is Soccer! The other one (American blabla) is a game with only one guy playing the ball with his foot.Retired European ProSeries players are known to be taken for that task.

[Witis]

Should apples replace Oranges?

Apples are delicious and oranges can sometimes be sour or squirt in your eye.

Totally agree with you dclamp, you always have to watch out for sour oranges that squirt in your eyes, the acid can really sting!

Rather than fruit, at least in the case of soccer,

King Edward II issued a proclamation in 1314 banning it saying "Forasmuch as there is great noise in the city caused by hustling over large balls from which many evils may arise which God forbid; we command and forbid, on behalf of the King, on pain of imprisonment, such game to be used in the city in the future."
Then King Edward III banned soccer in 1365. While in 1424 King James I of Scotland proclaimed in the Parliament that "Na man play at the Fute-ball".
Apparently King Henry IV and VIII as well as Queen Elizabeth also banned it.
Sources: http://www.historyofsoccer.info/, http://m.historyofsoccer.net/

I like to view it as getting rid of the fakes in preference for the real thing.

When I say football I am referring to the most popular codes such as:
American football (Grid iron)
Canadian football (Grid iron)
Gaelic football (the most popular sport in Ireland)
Australian Rules football
Rugby League
Rugby Union

[Witis]

What?
I guess the question should read: Should Soccer Replace American Football?
Since Football is Soccer! The other one (American blabla) is a game with only one guy playing the ball with his foot.Retired European ProSeries players are known to be taken for that task.

Does my last post clear it up for you Opus?

[opus]

Sure it does!

BTW Midtime Result of European ChampionsLeague Semifinals Spanish Teams: 1 German Teams: 8 !

[jmcilhinney]

When I say football I am referring to the most popular codes such as:
American football (Grid iron)
Canadian football (Grid iron)
Gaelic football (the most popular sport in Ireland)
Australian Rules football
Rugby League
Rugby Union

If I'm not mistaken, soccer is the most popular code of football. Maybe not in specific locations but certainly world-wide.

One thing I will say about soccer, the sooner they introduce lifetime bans for players flopping and rolling around holding their knee or ankle when replays clearly show that they were not fouled the better. This should be the low-water mark for that type of behaviour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0gS5CshUDE

[opus]

Well, you need replays for that. Soccer isn't played in ProSeries only, in fact the majority of players and referees do that as amateurs (correct word/spelling?). Would you apply that rule for them too? The needed resources (like equipment and manning!) isn't available in those leagues!

[jmcilhinney]

Well, you need replays for that. Soccer isn't played in ProSeries only, in fact the majority of players and referees do that as amateurs (correct word/spelling?). Would you apply that rule for them too? The needed resources (like equipment and manning!) isn't available in those leagues!

I was exaggerating somewhat when talking of life bans and Messi being the low-water mark but there should certainly be consequences. I'm not especially a soccer fan myself, nor any other type of football for that matter, but I believe that, at the top level at least, there are rules against diving but I think that they should probably be more severe. There's a bit of acting in every sport but, from what I've seen, soccer players take the cake. Even when there is genuine contact they roll around like they're dying when footballers in contact codes get worse many times over in a game and don't even blink. At the top level, where players should be held to a higher standard and you do have the opportunity to look more closely, it should be an instant red card and repeat offenders should get suspensions. In my experience, the #1 criticism of soccer is that the players are soft cry-babies. I admire their skill greatly but I feel like kicking them myself when I see that.

[Witis]

Sure it does!

BTW Midtime Result of European ChampionsLeague Semifinals Spanish Teams: 1 German Teams: 8 !

For those not into soccer (or not in Europe) Opus is raising the European Champions League.
The 2013 UEFA Champions League (which used to be called European [Champion Clubs'] Cup) has its final scheduled for Saturday, 25 May 2013 at Wembley Stadium in London, England.

The 4 semifinalists are Barcelona (ESP), Bayern Munich (GER), Real Madrid (ESP) and Dortmund (GER)
There are 4 matches to determine the finalists.
2 matches have already happened:
Barcelona (ESP) versus Bayern Munich (GER) was on Tue 23 Apr 2013 -> Barcelona 0 - 4 Bayern Munich
Real Madrid (ESP) versus Dortmund (GER) was on Wed 24 Apr 2013 -> Real Madrid 1 - 4 Dortmund
Half way through the semis -> Spanish Teams (Barcelona and Real Madrid) = 1 versus German Teams 8 (Bayern Munich and Dortmund) as Opus just mentioned.

The last 2 semis are scheduled for Tuesday 30th April 2013 and Wednesday 1st May 2013
See here for example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/...eague/fixtures

[Witis]

If I'm not mistaken, soccer is the most popular code of football. Maybe not in specific locations but certainly world-wide.

I don't think it is in Australia jmcilhinney, correct me if I am wrong I thought it was rugby league? In Ireland it is Gaelic football while America and Canada are Grid Iron.

[Witis]

I was exaggerating somewhat when talking of life bans and Messi being the low-water mark but there should certainly be consequences. I'm not especially a soccer fan myself, nor any other type of football for that matter, but I believe that, at the top level at least, there are rules against diving but I think that they should probably be more severe. There's a bit of acting in every sport but, from what I've seen, soccer players take the cake.

Perhaps they are working on another career in case they get injured????

Even when there is genuine contact they roll around like they're dying when footballers in contact codes get worse many times over in a game and don't even blink.

I am not sure having half of you brain hanging out, or bones poking through your skin and not complaining about it is necessarily a strong point for rugby league or Australian Rules football!

At the top level, where players should be held to a higher standard and you do have the opportunity to look more closely, it should be an instant red card and repeat offenders should get suspensions. In my experience, the #1 criticism of soccer is that the players are soft cry-babies.

Nancy boys? Do you think they just parade around with their multi-million dollar global jet setting contracts and don't even need to take an elbow in the face or even any serious body contact on a regular basis? Do you think a sportsman's salary should depend on how much physical abuse he or she can handle and not just the skill on the field?

I admire their skill greatly but I feel like kicking them myself when I see that.

What is it that makes you drawn to watching a game of league or Aussie rules instead of a soccer match?

[jmcilhinney]

What is it that makes you drawn to watching a game of league or Aussie rules instead of a soccer match?

Nothing. As I said, I'm not particularly a fan of any football code. I can appreciate the skill in most sports and do in most football codes but I rarely choose to watch any. I did play both soccer and rugby league a bit as a kid but was rather ordinary at both. Cricket and basketball are my two favourite sports. Having played and watched quite a bit of basketball, I know how rough a non-contact sport can be but I don't remember the last time I saw a basketball player writhing on the floor holding his knee one minute and then up and chasing the ball the next.

[FunkyDexter]

King Edward II issued a proclamation in 1314 banning it saying "Forasmuch as there is great noise in the city caused by hustling over large balls from which many evils may arise which God forbid; we command and forbid, on behalf of the King, on pain of imprisonment, such game to be used in the city in the future."
Then King Edward III banned soccer in 1365. While in 1424 King James I of Scotland proclaimed in the Parliament that "Na man play at the Fute-ball".

To understand that you really have to understand the context. Football then was not the same game as it is today at all. There were no rules... literally. Each game would have different objectives so sometime you'd just have to get the ball from one end of a village to another or sometimes both teams would be trying to get the ball to the same place but be in control of it when it arrived. Some games would allow you to pick up the ball, some wouldn't. There weren't formal numbers in the teams, or even teams, so you'd often basically just have mobs of hundreds of people all just hacking away at the same ball. About the only commonly identifiable element of a game of football was that is was unspeakably violent with eyes being gouged and limbs being broken. People were frequently trampled and killed.

The phrase football probably comes not from the fact that it was played with the feet (picking up the ball was actually more common and, of course, gave us rugby) but rather that it was played on foot as opposed to more gentlemanly games that were played from horseback.

[Witis]

Nothing. As I said, I'm not particularly a fan of any football code. I can appreciate the skill in most sports and do in most football codes but I rarely choose to watch any. I did play both soccer and rugby league a bit as a kid but was rather ordinary at both. Cricket and basketball are my two favourite sports. Having played and watched quite a bit of basketball, I know how rough a non-contact sport can be but I don't remember the last time I saw a basketball player writhing on the floor holding his knee one minute and then up and chasing the ball the next.

I haven't watched too many basketball matches although I wouldn't put it past some of the players to fake a foul if they could get away with it, not all of the players all of the time, just some of the players some of the time same as in the case of soccer.

[opus]

.. the #1 criticism of soccer is that the players are soft cry-babies.

You didn't have to write this name in bold, although this name was used before by a brasilian player.

[Witis]

To understand that you really have to understand the context. Football then was not the same game as it is today at all. There were no rules... literally.

That doesn't sound right, no rules, no penalties, no referees either? No one to keep score?

Each game would have different objectives so sometime you'd just have to get the ball from one end of a village to another [...] Some games would allow you to pick up the ball

That sounds like British bulldogs with a ball, oh wait isn't that rugby?

There weren't formal numbers in the teams, or even teams, so you'd often basically just have mobs of hundreds of people all just hacking away at the same ball.

You make it sound like an orgyanisationally difficult ball chase!

About the only commonly identifiable element of a game of football was that is was unspeakably violent with eyes being gouged and limbs being broken. People were frequently trampled and killed.

Now that sounds more like Rugby to me, are you sure you aren't mixing up the history of 2 separate games?

The phrase football probably comes not from the fact that it was played with the feet (picking up the ball was actually more common and, of course, gave us rugby) but rather that it was played on foot as opposed to more gentlemanly games that were played from horseback.

Soccer is really the only code that actually focuses on feet, perhaps the other codes could be renamed handball instead?

[opus]

Don't reuse the name "HandBall" again, it's already in use by two differnt games! The problem continues!

[FunkyDexter]

That sounds like British bulldogs with a ball

That's pretty close

Now that sounds more like Rugby to me, are you sure you aren't mixing up the history of 2 separate games?

In the time we're talking about they weren't two separate games. They were both yet to evolve out of the general mess of ball games that were being played. There were no governing bodys, no leagues... nobody to define a set of rules that everyone would play by. So you basically just had groups of people getting together, agreeing a loose set of rules on the spot and then diving straight into the action.

You can still find loads of other derivatives of these games still being played today, particularly in public schools. The Eton Wall Game's a pretty good (and violent) example you might find interesting. Indeed Rugby is usually credited with having come out of Rugby school when William Webb Ellis picked up the ball during a game of football. That's probably apocryphal because picking up the ball was common in many ball games of the time so wouldn't have been seen as particularly noteworthy but it does highlight just how loose and ill defined game rules were at the time.

As an aside, the first game ball played with the feet was probably in China.

[TysonLPrice]

Soccer is civilised notwithstanding some of the criminal persuasions of some of the fans;
where as football is a ubiquitously violent and stupid sport which should be banned.
What do you think?

Spell checkers are free

[Witis]

Don't reuse the name "HandBall" again, it's already in use by two differnt games! The problem continues!

Sure, although there isn't that much of a difference.
The game called handball (and I don't mean the one for those who want to play squash without using a racquet) involves passing the ball between players just like rugby and grid iron for example.
The only difference is that in handball the players score a goal by throwing the ball into a soccer like net instead of running across a line to score a try or touchdown.
So to me they all just seem like variations of handball.

By contrast soccer stands out as being the only sport mentioned that mainly focuses on the players prowess using their feet meaning that it is the only true football.

Australian rules is a bit of an oddball in that it actually does involve a bit of both passing and kicking (handball and football combined).

[Witis]

In the time we're talking about they weren't two separate games. They were both yet to evolve out of the general mess of ball games that were being played. There were no governing bodys, no leagues... nobody to define a set of rules that everyone would play by. So you basically just had groups of people getting together, agreeing a loose set of rules on the spot and then diving straight into the action.

Ahhh the time of proto rugby and proto soccer. It would be a real downer if you visited a foreign town and agreed to a spot of football expecting to turn up to meet 100+ friends to enjoy a bit of light fun kicking a ball around while trying to court the opposite sex, and instead find yourself confronted with an all out brawl where your team mates are depending you to help them avoid being beaten up and/or lose ownership of their property!

You can still find loads of other derivatives of these games still being played today, particularly in public schools. The Eton Wall Game's a pretty good (and violent) example you might find interesting.

Is that where players line up on the wall and try to avoid being hit by tennis balls being thrown at them like target practice and you have to catch the ball to stop being the target? At Eton it would probably be rocks that are thrown!

Indeed Rugby is usually credited with having come out of Rugby school when William Webb Ellis picked up the ball during a game of football. That's probably apocryphal because picking up the ball was common in many ball games of the time so wouldn't have been seen as particularly noteworthy but it does highlight just how loose and ill defined game rules were at the time.

'The claim that Webb Ellis invented the game did not surface until four years after his death and doubts have been raised about the story since 1895, when it was first investigated by the Old Rugbeian Society. The sub-committee conducting the investigation was "unable to procure any first hand evidence of the occurrence".' -wiki. So it seem likely to myth than fact from what I have read so far.

As an aside, the first game ball played with the feet was probably in China.

What was the game?

[Witis]

Spell checkers are free

I can tell that you are just jealous that I can't be fooled by the spell checker!!

[FunkyDexter]

Is that where players line up on the wall and try to avoid being hit by tennis balls being thrown at them like target practice and you have to catch the ball to stop being the target?

No, I think you're talking about dodgeball. In the Eton Wall Game two teams basically form a scrum over a ball placed against a wall and then try to drive each other laterally along the wall toward the end of it. The reason it's so violent is that, if you happen to be the player against the wall, you lose most of your skin. You're also allowed to push your fists into an oponents face (though not actually punch), hook legs and so forth.

What was the game?

I don't think anyone really knows. There are just lots of depictions of people dribbling balls in early Chinese art.

As I reach for the Post button I find myself wondering if the phrase "Dribbling Balls" will get passed the profanity filter.

[TysonLPrice]

I can tell that you are just jealous that I can't be fooled by the spell checker!!

I'll tell you what's pathetic...sometimes I can't even get a spell checker to figure out what I'm trying to spell.

[dilettante]

Or is that spell chequer?

[Witis]

No, I think you're talking about dodgeball. In the Eton Wall Game two teams basically form a scrum over a ball placed against a wall and then try to drive each other laterally along the wall toward the end of it. The reason it's so violent is that, if you happen to be the player against the wall, you lose most of your skin. You're also allowed to push your fists into an oponents face (though not actually punch), hook legs and so forth.

"the main game consists of the two sets of players forming a rugby-style scrummage (called a "Bully")"
"The Bully is formed next to the Wall and crabs slowly up and down the Wall until the ball emerges. Many players, particularly those whose position is actually against the Wall, lose the skin off their elbows, hips and knees."
"Players within the Bully shove and push each other, mostly with their bodies but also by placing their fists against the faces of the opposition and attempting to lever them backwards and away from the Wall."
"The game lasts up to an hour, with two halves of 30 minutes each. Many games end 0-0. Scoring goals (ten points) is very rare; they occur about once every 10 years and there have been no goals scored in the St. Andrew Day game since 1909."

So the whole point of the game is to cause permanent physical harm rather than score a goal; that almost makes my hypothetical rock throwing dodge-ball variant seem pretty tame by comparison, although I clearly got the Eton ethos spot on!

I don't think anyone really knows. There are just lots of depictions of people dribbling balls in early Chinese art.

As I reach for the Post button I find myself wondering if the phrase "Dribbling Balls" will get passed the profanity filter.

Here is some info going back to 2500 B.C:
http://expertfootball.com/wp/ball-games-far-east/
http://expertfootball.com/wp/ball-games-mediterranean/

[Witis]

I'll tell you what's pathetic...sometimes I can't even get a spell checker to figure out what I'm trying to spell.

Are you taking about neologisms or something else????

[Witis]

Or is that spell chequer?

Well that depends on the user now doesn't it!

[homer13j]

Aussie rules kicks everyone's ass. It exposes the NFL for the overpaid, padded-up primadonnas they are. And soccer players are pretty much all a bunch of flopping sissies.

Why Australian Rules Football Is The Greatest Sport On The Planet

[Witis]

Aussie rules kicks everyone's ass. It exposes the NFL for the overpaid, padded-up primadonnas they are. And soccer players are pretty much all a bunch of flopping sissies.

What about rugby league???? If you are talking serious, permanent, and life threatening injury potential within the first few minutes of the commencement of a game then league would probably have to be the game to look at and its supporters therefore call Australian Rules "Aerial Ping Pong" (spectacular but just not enough big head to head, bone crunching, back breaking, coma inducing risks to make it worth watching), just ask jmcilhinney he is from Sydney where League is the primary football code: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aerial_ping_pong. In Australian Rules Football to get a serious injury it usually has to happen by accident, two players running head on into each other at full steam going for the same mark without noticing the other, in League they simply run straight at each other like that each and every time; it is like watching the hits in grid iron without any protective gear!

[homer13j]

What about rugby league????

One word: IGRAB. There can never and will never be an Aussie rules equivalent.

[JaneTheSardine]

Replace? That makes no sense Jack.

[Witis]

One word: IGRAB. There can never and will never be an Aussie rules equivalent.

I think you are right on that one homer13j!

[Witis]

Replace? That makes no sense Jack.

Exactly, which is why is has to be replaced!

[dunfiddlin]

What?
The other one (American blabla) is a game with only one guy playing the ball with his foot.

Usually 2 per side for total of 4 and several others may play the ball by foot. As far as I'm aware the record for the longest NFL punt is still held by a quarterback, for example! As with rugby the kicker is usually the guy who ends up with the highest individual points scoring records so it's not too unreasonable to call it football.

[dunfiddlin]

One word: IGRAB. There can never and will never be an Aussie rules equivalent.

Well as Aussie rules is basically a straight steal from Gaelic Football (with the crossbar removed and moved to either side of the goal to help the less accurate kickers, and the corners of the pitch rounded off to make it easier to identify the ends for the geographically challenged) I'm not sure that you can really be quite as emphatic as that!

[homer13j]

Well as Aussie rules is basically a straight steal from Gaelic Football

Gaelic is quite a lot of fun to watch as well as Hurling. And the hybrid International Rules games between the Irish and the Aussies frequently degenerate into gloriously violent free-for-alls to the point where they called it off for a couple of years.

the corners of the pitch rounded off to make it easier to identify the ends for the geographically challenged

It is played on an oval cricket pitch roughly 180m x 130m. The game was originally invented to keep cricket players in shape during the winter months but it was quickly determined that cricket was inferior to almost every other sport except maybe bocce ball, Canadian curling, and Jarts. Today the Melbourne Cricket Grounds (MCG) regularly sees 90,000+ crowds for AFL games while cricket is lucky to get 1,200 in the same building.

Attachment 99513

[Witis]

Usually 2 per side for total of 4 and several others may play the ball by foot. As far as I'm aware the record for the longest NFL punt is still held by a quarterback, for example! As with rugby the kicker is usually the guy who ends up with the highest individual points scoring records so it's not too unreasonable to call it football.

I don't believe that having the odd player doing some kicking every now and then magically transforms it from handball into football; if the majority of the players use their hands to carry the ball for more than 50% of the time, then to me it is handball and not football.

In the case of rugby there is usually only one specialist kicker on each team which is why that one player can accumulate a lot of points especially if there are a lot of penalties, although even then the player with kicking duties spends most of their time in the match using their hands to pass the ball rather than their feet just like the rest of the players, which means I am not even sure if you can call that player a footballer either.

[Witis]

Well as Aussie rules is basically a straight steal from Gaelic Football (with the crossbar removed and moved to either side of the goal to help the less accurate kickers, and the corners of the pitch rounded off to make it easier to identify the ends for the geographically challenged) I'm not sure that you can really be quite as emphatic as that!

I am not up to date on the Irish pronunciations of words, can you tell me the correct way to say Gaelic?