Rant: I am just a newbie

[kareninstructor]

Somedays I wonder why people seemingly hide behind this phrase. 10 years ago I never heard people using this phrase, so is part of the new generation of people wanting to hone this craft getting lazy and/or soft? People who enter into the world of IT to develop solutions for others tend to make a decent or better than decent salary and should have the skills or not get paid well.

Any thoughts

[jmcilhinney]

Everyone's a newbie at some point and the number of hobbyist programmers is getting ever larger. I have no issue with being a newbie and stating as a justification for what may seem silly questions or not understanding basic concepts. What I do have issue with is people using it as a justification for not trying on their own behalf. To my ear they are saying "I am a newbie so it will take effort for me to look for things for myself so I'd rather just have someone else spoon feed me". I'm quite sure that the vast majority of them don't rationalise it that way but that's exactly what they're doing. There's an assumption that they won't be able to find what they want or understand what they find. That may well be true in some cases but that's not a reason not to try. The second-most annoying thing is when someone asks a legitimate question and you tell them exactly which type and/or member to use to solve their problem and they then post back asking for an example without having made any effort to use the type and/or member name to find existing examples on the web. The most annoying thing is when they already know which type or member to use in the first place and post asking for an example without making any effort to find one for themselves. Whether a newbie or not, there really is no excuse for anyone who wants to write software, even as a hobby, not to use the Help menu on their IDE as a first option when they need help. How many people don't even consider it? It's that attitude that their first option should be to get someone else to do it for them that annoys me.

[kareninstructor]

I'm just a hobbiest, so everything I code is out of fun or for the challenge(for fun :]). So I can't see the frustration as say, y'all who get paid to program. But on my end I just get frustrated with those who hide behind the phrase and then never follow up with a decent amount of effort on thier behalf.

Greetings,

Personally a hobbiest is different than a newbie as a hobbiest can be labeled this for years.
I agree with JMC that everyone is a newbie at some point, we all were.

[kareninstructor]

@jmcilhinney, I could not agree more.

[honeybee]

Maybe the word 'Newbie' wasn't in fashion ten years back?

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[jmcilhinney]

Maybe the word 'Newbie' wasn't in fashion ten years back?

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It used to be that you were already a geek if you were getting into programming in the first place. Very few people got into the field, even for fun, with the expectation that others would do their work for them. Nowadays, it's orders of magnitude easier to find information and yet, true to form, the current generation are orders of magnitude less inclined to make any sort of effort on their own behalf to find it. I can't count the number of times I've answered questions on this and other forums on topics that I've had np previous experience with simply by searching the web. I have no issue with people not knowing but I have a big issue with people not trying. That's why some of my posts appear to be a bit barbed. It's my hope that the next time that person has a question they will remember my post and, either through responsibility or guilt, will at least make an effort to find out for themselves first. That's all I ask: that they make an effort on their own behalf. If they can't find what they need or understand what they find then I'm more than happy to help.

[honeybee]

You are right in your expectations. However this is where I want to present a different perspective (not from a newbie, but from a forum member's perspective): I often am searching for personal opinions of if A is better than B. A and B could be design choices, products or simply idle questions in my mind. And I prefer posting it here because I am sure it will be answered by people and I shall get to know what people think of A and B.

As I said this does not apply to the newbie questions, but I do plead guilty to the charge of not searching before posting in such cases.

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[kareninstructor]

the current generation are orders of magnitude less inclined to make any sort of effort on their own behalf to find it.

Seems like back in the late 90's before the Internet at least from my perspective not many questions were being asked and I believe it was because of a) developer's struggled with figuring things out b) they actually read manuals and resolved issues the right way.

It's my hope that the next time that person has a question they will remember my post and, either through responsibility or guilt, will at least make an effort to find out for themselves first. That's all I ask: that they make an effort on their own behalf. If they can't find what they need or understand what they find then I'm more than happy to help.

Scanning the forums here I find that this works for you to some degree yet fails for others who try to do the same thing you do. It's all in your phrasing vs others trying to do the same thing. No matter you do well at what you do.

So are some of the new generation developers (ruling out hobbiest) thinking this is cool until they actually sit down and have to work at it? Did Microsoft make it seem so easy in regards to things like using data wizards to do strongly type data sets in that yes you do have to do some coding when using wizards.

[honeybee]

I guess Google is to blame for this. Before Google, I remember buying a book on VB6, going through it plus the MSDN and trying to figure things out. That's when I was introduced to VB Forums. Back then since the world wasn't as much connected and the knowledge hadn't 'exploded', each problem was unique and there was no ready solution. You were forced to try out yourself and see what worked and what didn't.

Today whatever problem you get, once you type it into Google you get a ready solution. Just copy paste and you are good to go. The result: People are now becoming incapable of even a proper copy/paste.

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[dilettante]

What's weird with VB6 is that there is no easy way to obtain it legitimately anymore. Thus the number of true newbs should be vanishingly small.

Since it isn't, I can only assume there is some rampant piracy going on. This might also help explain the truly rudimentary level of so many questions: pirated VB6 doesn't come with the MSDN CDs so they're playing "Pinball Wizard" trying to use it at all.

Of course .Net is another story, with Express Edition packages for VB.Net, C#, etc. readily available for free. That's probably the best place for a newb to be spending time anyway, free or not. VB6 is not something to be learning at this late date, valuable as it is for those who still use it.

[honeybee]

You may have some point, though if VB6 could be pirated, the MSDN too could, and VB6 technical books should be available at throwaway prices. Yes, I am surprised at the number of people still posting in VB6 threads, it's been more than ten years that DotNet has come out and people are still working in VB6. That's a bit surprising, or suspicious, whichever way you look at it.

I think the problem may not be specific to particular tools, but a general symptom of lack of willingness to learn. Today I interview many candidates experienced in ASP.Net, and not one of them can comfortably answer what is a postback. Nobody is aware of the basic HTTP commands. This is the root cause of the 'newbie' habit.

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[FunkyDexter]

I see a thread like this on just about every technical site I ever visit and I honestly don't think there's any difference between the current generation and the previous one, I see the same characters in both. I saw guys asking for ready answers 20 years ago, cutting and pasting from other peoples code and I don't see that they're any diferent now. I also saw the guys who were busy "mystifying" what we do and pretending we were somehow special and clever (which I don't think we are, particularly) and I don't see that they've changed in the last 20 years either. And I met just as many people complaining that the new generation of programmers were lazy 20 years ago because they didn't take the time to learns boolean algebra and binary maths by rote.

I think the truth is that there will always be people who are looking for the path of least resistance to achieve their goal and there will always be people who enjoy moaning about it. My answers simply this, don't sweat it. If someone wants unconditional help and you've got the inclination to give it to him then go ahead. If you don't have that inclination then don't.

As my mum used to tell it: if you don't have something nice to say...

I can only assume there is some rampant piracy going on

You're probably right but I doubt MS care very much. The guys grabbing pirate copies aren't going to be buying pro-versions of .net if you stop them using VB6. In fact, by allowing them to get away with VB6 MS probably increase the chance that they'll move toward a paidf version of .net at a later date rather than learning java or some other free language.

[techgnome]

regarding the seeming rampant use of VB6 still... sadly many colleges and universities are slow to change their curriculum, which means if they were teaching VB6, and probably using VB6 Academic edition...
So that's probably where a lot of that comes from. Also, a great many of people just now entering the work force are being asked to support the VB6 apps that the rest of us no longer want to touch. So for those at least, they are probably having to learn VB6 for the first time, after having been taught something else in school.

-tg

[TysonLPrice]

Somedays I wonder why people seemingly hide behind this phrase. 10 years ago I never heard people using this phrase, so is part of the new generation of people wanting to hone this craft getting lazy and/or soft? People who enter into the world of IT to develop solutions for others tend to make a decent or better than decent salary and should have the skills or not get paid well.

Any thoughts

Maybe your skin is too thin

I can think of a few:

One reason may be they are thinking their question is too basic.

It doesn't happen here but some technical sites have members that find it easy to flame others that aren't very well versed in programming. Maybe they are trying to head them off by saying that.

Could be just setting a reference point to let others know at what level to address their question.

I really don’t think it has anything to do with hiding, being lazy\soft, or anything along those lines.

That reminds me of another rant someone posted at a mainframe site about ten years ago. Mainframe jobs were being outsourced to India quite a bit and posts from there used to start with “I have a doubt…”. I guess that is similar to saying “I have a question…” there. It drove that member to the point of a rant because he took it to mean they didn’t believe something versus being a question. Or maybe mostly it was just “un-American.

My rant right now is how the U.S. house and senate branch is letting us go off the “fiscal cliff”. They make me so mad I could spit.

[PatnLongBeach]

I think some learn by examples. I'm one one em. You could write a huge paragraph and completely spell it out for me, but for some reason my brain just does not grasp that like it could with just a few lines of code. What really bogs my mind is how a few dedicated knowledgeable people here can sit here on this board day after day and keep helping or aiming people in the right direction. Huge props to you guys.

Pat

[jmcilhinney]

I think some learn by examples. I'm one one em. You could write a huge paragraph and completely spell it out for me, but for some reason my brain just does not grasp that like it could with just a few lines of code. What really bogs my mind is how a few dedicated knowledgeable people here can sit here on this board day after day and keep helping or aiming people in the right direction. Huge props to you guys.

Pat

Everyone learns by example. Examples are an invaluable learning tool. The thing is, there are a fair number of people who would have us believe that they can ONLY learn by example, and even then only by examples that we provide them and not the ones that they would have to search the web to find for themselves. Quite frankly, most of those people are simply lazy to a greater or lesser extent, some subconsciously and some quite wilfully. The only people who truly can't make use of information to make at least an attempt of their own are those with fairly serious learning disabilities, and that is a small minority. There have been quite a number of people on this very forum who have asked me to do it for them and when I have refused and told them to do it for themselves, have indeed done so. If they hadn't been pushed then they just wouldn't have bothered and would have denied themselves the chance to succeed.

I am quite aware that it is easier to just read someone else's solution to your problem and apply it than it is to take bits and pieces of information, sometimes from disparate sources, and piece them together into a solution. I am also quite aware that if doing so is your habit then the chances that you'll ever be able to modify such a solution to solve an even slightly different problem is severely reduced, never mind taking pieces of various solutions and putting them together to solve a whole new problem. No matter what else may help along the way, there is no doubt that the best way to learn is to do. If the point is to learn, therefore, then the first option should be to do. If you try and fail then you can always post again.

[kareninstructor]

I believe the following says volumes to see where I am coming from

http://kevininstructor.home.comcast....heSmartWay.doc

[kareninstructor]

I think some learn by examples. I'm one one em. You could write a huge paragraph and completely spell it out for me, but for some reason my brain just does not grasp that like it could with just a few lines of code. What really bogs my mind is how a few dedicated knowledgeable people here can sit here on this board day after day and keep helping or aiming people in the right direction. Huge props to you guys.

Pat

No disagreement here.

[techgnome]

Tyson - that's a translation issue... It's something that used to drive me crazy as well... I got over it... I now mentally GREP it...

As for the main issue, I think jmc hit the proverbial nail on the head in the last paragraph. I see a difference in being able to take an example, learn from it and then apply it to a real-world example -which is probably what a majority of us do - and being able to take an example, not even comprehending it, and then posting something along the lines of "here's my code, can you jsut modify it for me?" or "here's my program details how do I do that" (this is usually in relation to databases) ... basically a complete lack of either comprehension, or effort, on trying to learn the concept. If you can't take a concept and figure out how to apply it to a real-world situation, then maybe you need to reconsider programming.

That said, there are times when we are dealing with someone who isn't a programmer and doesn't want to be a programmer... but they find themselves in a position to either create something, or to update something that requires some kind of programming-related task... those are cases I don't mind putting in a little more effort to help them...

My other observation is that these people are actually probably in the minority... but they irritate us to such a degree that they stand out over the others. It's just the extremes in any group... they are usually the minority of the group yet they make such a nuisance of themselves ... squeaky wheel and all that.

-tg

[FunkyDexter]

these people are actually probably in the minority... but they irritate us to such a degree that they stand out over the others

I definitely agree with that. I think it's one of the weaknesses of the web that, because we never see faces, it's really difficult to keep a perspective of who's saying what and when. That means only the extra-ordinary stands out in our mind and therefore tends to get amplified.

posts from there used to start with “I have a doubt…”.

I've got to admit that bad or lazy English irritates me alot more than bad or lazy programmers but I view that as my issue rather than theirs so do my best not to criticize it. After all, I can't really justify getting upset over someone not bothering to learn English properly to ask a question unless I'm willing to learn Punjabi or Portuguese to answer it.

Also, I seem to have a weird disjoint when typing into forums and my own spelling and grammer get's really bad sometimes. Honestly, just look through my posts on this forum and you'll find very few that I didn't feel the need to come back and edit a few minutes after posting when I started spotting my typos. The funny thing is I actually give them a quick proof read before I hit post and I still don't spot my mistakes until I've broadcast them to the world. Weirdly, I don't seem to have the same problem in any other medium, just forums.

[TysonLPrice]

I honestly don't think there's any difference between the current generation and the previous one

I'm going off the subject here but that reminded me of this from the the sixties...It was popular and used to point out things don't change that much from generation to generation.

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

- Socrates (470 – 399 BC)

[dilettante]

Another issue is that some people simply can't read at a level to be functionally literate.

You have a lot of non-native English speakers/readers and their level of expression and comprehension can range from pidgeon English to a competence putting the rest of us to shame.

But then you have the other kind, stuck at a 3rd grade reading level. There just isn't any real chance of them coping with Technical English in a field like computer programming which has its own vocabulary (which can even vary by vendor and specific technology used).


And then you have your Brits and hangers-on: Bizarre attempts at the spelling of words. Freaky use of "to" as a universal preposition. Not to mention the various bits of slang and cant they inject into written prose involuntarily.

That ignores their funky "pro-nun-ski-a-tion" - just give a listen to BBC Radio sometime if you really want a belly laugh. They seem to have a hell of a time with many vowels and diphthongs. One can only wonder if they're more comfortable writing in Saxon runes too.

Sadly some of it seems to be leaking and spreading, and even U.S. journalists and newscasters spew such illiteracy lately.

[dilettante]

Also, I seem to have a weird disjoint when typing into forums and my own spelling and grammer get's really bad sometimes. Honestly, just look through my posts on this forum and you'll find very few that I didn't feel the need to come back and edit a few minutes after posting when I started spotting my typos. The funny thing is I actually give them a quick proof read before I hit post and I still don't spot my mistakes until I've broadcast them to the world. Weirdly, I don't seem to have the same problem in any other medium, just forums.

The last few versions of forum software used here have been very script-heavy, with all sorts of weird hyperactive crap going on client-side. Don't discount the possibility of some bit of "ransom note generator" gag script embedded in pages that randomly drops words, inverts letters, changes capitalization, etc.

[honeybee]

We already have one nerd claiming to have found a foolproof way to thwart kidnapping attempts, and now you are suggesting a ransom note generator. What is the world coming to?


On a serious note (not of ransom, of course), have we ever helped someone who is stuck with code he/she cannot understand because maybe his/her whole team (which could be one developer for all we know) left, and he/she was stuck with the maintenance of the project and making an important delivery to the client?

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[Shaggy Hiker]

It doesn't happen here but some technical sites have members that find it easy to flame others that aren't very well versed in programming. Maybe they are trying to head them off by saying that.

Even without visiting any sites where this takes place, I know that it must because of the way some questions are phrased on this site. This particular behavior appears to be clearly learned behavior, though where it was learned I can't say.

They make me so mad I could spit.

Since people have covered the original subject so well, and since you brought up something quite irrelevant (which is necessary in any chit-chat thread), I think I should respond to this sentence by taking it entirely without the context and waaaaay to literally:

I can spit even when I'm not mad. In fact, I'm quite good at it, though I know people who are far more proficient in this area. In my case, I have never failed to hit at least something when I spit, even if it is just the ground. I rarely end up spitting on any part of me, either, which I feel shows a reasonably high degree of competence and attention to prevalent wind patterns. Anybody who only spits when they are mad is nothing but the rankest noob. One can't have very high expectations of the expectorations of such an individual. In fact, I feel that such a person would be likely to spray all and sundry with neither control nor regard. Therefore, I urge you to spend considerable time practicing before you get around to spitting on congress. After all, there are lots of school groups that visit the halls of Congress (though, oddly enough, school groups are generally not allowed to visit any other houses of prostitution), and if you are nothing but a noob with your spitting, you might hit some innocent children.

[techgnome]

On a serious note (not of ransom, of course), have we ever helped someone who is stuck with code he/she cannot understand because maybe his/her whole team (which could be one developer for all we know) left, and he/she was stuck with the maintenance of the project and making an important delivery to the client?

Actually... yes... several times... usually this happens because 1) the developer left in the middle of development, leaving things undone, 2) didn't document squat (not only was the squat no documented, but neither was the chin-up) 3) found themselves in over their head and didn't know how to get themselves out of it, 4) some combination of 1-3...

But yes, I know of at least one thread in the last month where that was the case ... the code was so bad, the person who inherited it couldn't make heads or tails of it, and what still needed to be done... took some effort, but the code was eventually sorted out, and the result ended up being something better than what was originally intended.

-tg

[techgnome]

Oh... no... and in that context... I don't think I've ever seen that... I think the point that honeybee was trying to make, is that more often than not, the people that need the help are noobs... which is true... but from time to time some of us that are long in the tooth find ourselves in uncharted waters, and in those cases, we do reach out... but usually when posts like that are encountered, we know the poster and have some idea of either what they're up to, or at least what they are capable of.

-tg

[honeybee]

Well, people new to the forums would obviously struggle with the title. After all it's similar to choosing a catchline when advertising. You are advertising a problem you are facing, and you need the best way to attract people to it. I think it's only to be expected that people will think up innovative (or sometimes plain dumb) titles to their threads.

What if I started all my threads with the title "OK, here's a problem I can't quite seem to understand ..." ?

Different forums are like different cultures. I am part of another forum which bans the practice of opening multiple threads on the same topic. To loosely compare it with VBForums, if I were to post a new query on Winsock, I would have to search and locate the existing thread on Winsock and then post my query there as a new post. If I created a new thread, I would receive an admonishment from the mods and my new thread either deleted or, if I was more fortunate, merged with that existing thread.

Of course each style of governance has its own pros and cons, but the point is each community is really a culture with its own rules and what-goes-and-what-doesn't norms. Newbies (in the sense new members) are always wary of such cultures (specially if they have burnt their hands elsewhere) and so are likely to make more mistakes or trample on more people's feet before they learn the ropes.

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[Shaggy Hiker]

I recently went looking for a thread I started (but didn't find it, so either I hallucinated the whole thing, or I added the post to some totally other thread), and found that most of the threads I start have a subject line that includes the word: Oddity.

Even I find that odd.

[kareninstructor]

In regards to the title of this thread, my thought was that by leading with Rant members who have been here for sometime would get it.

[honeybee]

That got me thinking: What would have happened if you had titled the thread "Apple Tarts" ?

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[kareninstructor]

That got me thinking: What would have happened if you had titled the thread "Apple Tarts" ?

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At least for me I would salivate

[kareninstructor]

It won’t work is stated and they don’t indicate what does not work, yet another pet peeve.
Perhaps this is more indignant than stating they are a newbie.

Dang, still thinking of apple tarts.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Got me thinking of Pink Floyd:

I am just a newbieeee
Stranger in this forum
Where are all the good codes?
Whoes gonna show this newbie around?

(you'd have to have a pretty tortured pronunciation of forum, but it's possible....sort of)

By the way: I agree that "It won't work" is about the single most annoying thing anybody writes on here. Considering it caused TG to find eels in his hovercraft, it probably takes a prize.

[techgnome]

Hey... sometimes it causes some people's fingers to fall off... it's the only logical explanation I can find that explains the lack of details in some of these posts... they can't type anymore.

-tg

[SJWhiteley]

I used to be a industrial drives field service engineer: I would go out to the customers and fix their (our) broken drives. There was always something broken. I started to think that the company I worked for only produced junk. How can so many people have problems? The fact was that I never saw the 99.9% of the equipment that is working great.

Noting that, considering the number of posts on this forum, for every post of stupidity, there are 999 people who figured it out and have moved on to more complex and worthwhile challenges. One will rarely encounter such people.

[Shaggy Hiker]

True. There is a strong sampling bias at work here. For one thing, outside of Chit-Chat, almost everybody who starts a thread is confused about something. We never see the ones who are not confused, noob or otherwise.

[jmcilhinney]

True. There is a strong sampling bias at work here. For one thing, outside of Chit-Chat, almost everybody who starts a thread is confused about something. We never see the ones who are not confused, noob or otherwise.

So basically what we're saying is that too large a proportion of those who are confused are not prepared to make sufficient effort to alleviate their own confusion.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Ah, since you put it that way, I do understand the problem, and I see the solution: Gin!

[dilettante]

♬
Gloom, despair and agony on me-e!
Deep dark depression, excessive misery-y!
If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all!
Gloom, despair and agony on me-e-e!
♬

So when feeling depressed you should avoid these forums huh?


Good thing we're not mentioning names or this other Hee-Haw classic might apply:

♬
Now, we're not ones to go 'round spreadin' rumors,
Why, really we're just not the gossipy kind,
No, you'll never hear one of us repeating gossip,
So you'd better be sure and listen close the first time!
♬