.net - javascript essential

[Webskater]

About 9 or 10 years ago I used to visit a site which had a javascript forum. There were some clever guys on there who used to do some clever stuff with javascript. A few of them - one of them was called Charles as I recall - used to constantly preach the message that you should not build sites that rely on javascript - if you do you are preventing people with disabilities from using them - and you could get sued under some legislation or other. (He was evangelical about it and cited the case of the people who created the web site for the Sydney Olympics in 2000 getting sued because of that problem.)

As I tend to develop business applications I used to ignore these warnings - in that javascript is seriously handy if you want to provide a decent user interface in a web application.

When I started using .Net about 4 years ago (I stuck with classic ASP until I was prised away from my keyboard) - I thought to myself ... hmm _doPostBAck is used all over the place by .Net ... has all this 'don't use javascript for anything essential' malarkey died a death?

So, my question is ... every asp.Net site uses javascript ... right? I mean, if they don't, you only have two server controls that cause postbacks.

If someone turns javascript off in their browser - 99.9% of .net sites won't work. Is this true? If so ... it's safe to use javascript on a public facing site without some nutjob suing you?

(I think I tried ebay recently (apologies to them if it wasn't them)) with javascript disabled and a message came up saying you must enable javascript in your browser).

[rjv_rnjn]

Building a website without JavaScript will seriously limit the kind of user experience you want to provide. The only way then would be to rely on the browser "Submit" action.

I would only try to learn and build a website without JS only if my company is legally bound to follow some rule. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense.

And I was thinking, why do you ask?

[Webskater]

Building a website without JavaScript will seriously limit the kind of user experience you want to provide. The only way then would be to rely on the browser "Submit" action.

I would only try to learn and build a website without JS only if my company is legally bound to follow some rule. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense.

And I was thinking, why do you ask?

Because, as I said, some years ago there were a lot of people saying 'you mustn't use javascript on a web site because people who are visually impaired who use various 'readers' would not be able to use the site' and, allegedly, the developers of the web site for the Sydney olympics got sued for that very reason - and because a lot of goverment web sites insist on 'accessibility' ... it just struck me as odd that in the face of all this pressure (some years ago) along comes .net with Javascript (almost) central to the functionality. As if, somehow, accessibility was no longer important and everyone could write sites with feature rich, javascript driven, user interfaces and not give a hoot about people who could not use the sites.

I usually develop web based business applications so I haven't had to concern myself. But I have been writing a site in my spare time that I may inflict on the rest of the world in due course - and I'm writing it in .net. And, of course, it uses javascript extensively - I kind of like Ajax ... I like dropdownlists that repopulate based on another selection - without a round trip to the server ... I like client side validation for the same reason ... and so it goes on.

So, I'm just curious ... are people still getting sued for providing web sites that are not 'accessible' without javascript enabled in the browser?

[sapator]

Ye i got sued the other day because i was walking on the pavement over the tiled Flor used for people with visually impaired problems...Well that is what you are saying(without any disrespect to people with special needs).
On that account the can also sue every company that creates monitors.
Anyhow if you are form US then yes, you got some crazy laws there.I remember it's illegal to enter some state wearing a rabbit hat, or something

[gep13]

Hello,

There is a big difference between using JavaScript on the browser to initiate a PostBack to the server and using JavaScript to completely take control of the end user experience by dynamically adding content to the site, moving things around, etc, etc. So I really think we are talking about two different things.

There is also an argument that historically, JavaScript behaved differently across the various browsers out there. Now with more of a push towards standards, and libraries like jQuery taking care of a lot of the cross platform differences, this type of problem is becoming less of an issue.

Gary

[Webskater]

Hello,

There is a big difference between using JavaScript on the browser to initiate a PostBack to the server and using JavaScript to completely take control of the end user experience by dynamically adding content to the site, moving things around, etc, etc. So I really think we are talking about two different things.

I must admit I was thinking along those lines - especially as, out of the box, as it were, Visual Studio sets you up with server controls like DropDownList with the ability to set Autopostback="true" - which will use javascript to submit the form the control is on.

I would have thought a big organisation like Microsoft might have a warning on the box that says 'Using certain features of this web site creation tool might mean you contravene legislation in your country'.

Whilst poking about I found the web site below. I don't know who they are - so I hope I am not accused of spamming the forum - but they do have an extensive tutorial on their site dealing with accessibility issues.

http://www.userite.com/content-notes...anisation.html

The first sentence on their home page is:
"Website accessibility is a legal requirement in the UK as well as in most countries around the world, but it does not mean making your site less exciting."

In their tutorial it makes it clear that javascript driven postbacks are a no-no - as people with impaired vision using 'readers' will not have a clue what is going on. Which, I guess, is fair enough. But I often put tables on the screen with loads of data in them - with a row of dropdownlists across the top that, when you make a selection, causes a postback and filters the data that is the datasource for the table. I usually put the table in an updatepanel so the screen does not 'blink' while the data changes ... which produces a slick user interface but one, which, apparently, is illegal!

So, to accommodate the one person in a thousand (?) with impaired vision, you have to provide a much more cruddy interface for the other 999.

I just posted this stuff here because I'm curious to know what you guys do. Do you just ignore this stuff?

I figure, for the public facing web site I am working on, I'll create a separate 'accessibility friendly' site. But that is a shedload of extra work and it's not as though it's a site I will be charging for - more a bit of a 'public service/interest' sort of site.

Edit: And, how am I supposed to test whether a site I create is 'accessible' - I don't have access to a reader - do the government provide them to web site developers so they can test how their site works?

[Webskater]

Please ignore - don't know how but I ended up with two copies of the same reply.

[gep13]

Hello,

Just following up on some old threads...

Was just wondering if you had seen some of these links:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.71).aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa479043.aspx
http://geekswithblogs.net/codeseeker...29/122477.aspx

Gary

[Webskater]

Hello,

Just following up on some old threads...

Was just wondering if you had seen some of these links:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.71).aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa479043.aspx
http://geekswithblogs.net/codeseeker...29/122477.aspx

Gary

Hi Gary

Thanks for the links - looking through the first one it says ... "Use the TabIndex property to create a sensible navigational path through the form. It is important for controls without intrinsic labels, such as text boxes, to have their associated label immediately precede them in the tab order."

On the 'userite' site that I provided a link to, it says ... "The tabindex attribute takes control of events away from the user and can leave the user not knowing where the current focus is. We therefore recommend that you do not use the tabindex attribute."

Hmm, not going to be easy building an accessible site that pleases everybody.

[gep13]

Hmm, not going to be easy building an accessible site that pleases everybody.

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of debate about what is, and isn't accessible, as you have found out.

Gary

[rjv_rnjn]

As I was reading this article: http://www.netmagazine.com/opinions/too-much-javascript this thread cropped up in mind. Interesting read.

It also affirms the explanation that you posted above on why JS rich websites are not friendly for visually impaired people.

Text-to-speech interpreters and magnification tools can operate incorrectly or, in some cases, crash an entire page when encountering some hastily inserted JavaScript. Or, if the site is wholly reliant on JavaScript, then it doesn’t work at all.