alternatives to Visual Source Safe

[gregghoush]

What are my alternatives to Visual Source Safe? i want single person editing (check-in/check-out) model, but i want the ability to have a base set of code brought into every new app, not just copied to that apps new directory, but just used from the base app. can that be done?

[Serge]

Why don't you like SourceSafe??? It's a great tool to maintain the project for whatever number of users.

[gregghoush]

well, iv enoticed that in some situations its just too slow. We also want the whole base project idea, where i can say, this is the base. all other projects include these files. But those projects dont copy those files to their dir, they just use the ones that are there. you know what i mean?

[Gen-X]

There is a product I have heard bantered around where I am called "ClearCase" though I haven't had the fortune to see or use it.

I believe its specialty is in being able to create distributable projects that are tightly version controlled, unlike Visual Source Safe that ONLY performs version control on the individual files themselves.


Visual Source Safe is to me a glorified repository. Its simply a place to STORE your files but there is little to no features provided in being able to control versions... and believe me, I have ferreted around on the INSIDE of the beast.

[Serge]

I would have to dissagree. I love SourceSafe. I've been using it since VB5 and suites everything we had in our projects. As far as versioning, it does the job just fine.
And the best thing that I really like about it is, it integrates with Visual Studio. I also used PVCS previously, but I still like SourceSafe a lot better. This is just my opinion.

[LG]

Serge!

You are not alone! It is a very nice tool. I will stand for it any time!!!

[Gen-X]

Ok, obviously I have to explain this one right out.

Imagine you have an application that consists of the following :

form1
form2
form3
module1
module2

Now all of these when added to VSS are at Version 1. You compile the application and release the .exe as "Version 1.0"

Now imagine this... you are modifying your application to be the following :

form1 (still v1)
form2 (now v2)
form3 (now v2)
module1 (still v1)
module2 (now v2)

So you create another executable and this time it is given the title of "Version 1.1".


If I wanted to be able to re-compile "Version 1.0" of my application using the source retrieved from VSS I couldn't. Why? because I would have to work out for myself EXACTLY which versions of each individual file went into "Version 1.0" of my application... and if this application had 50 forms and 30 modules, 10 classes etc it would be a nightmare...

Visual Source Safe CANNOT handle this.

So VSS therefor becomes a glorified repository, able to STORE code but not able to actually make sense of it as far as an "application" level is concerned. It certainly doesn't do what Greg wanted.

I like it too... but ONLY a a storage bin... NOT as a wonderful package that can do ANYTHING else.

[LG]

this is not correct.

First of all, you can "pin" the version of the file( form, class ... ) and then retern to it any time.

second of all, when it comes to different versions, you really can handle it very simple. You create "branches" which will represent different versions of the project. The you can specify "shared" files ( meaning that you usualy have modules wich are the same for all versions. So each "branch" is a different version of the project. Any changes applied to "not shared files" will be in effect only for the branch (version) where you have made those changes. On the other hand if you apply changes to "shared" files, this will be applyed to all versions, which makes a perfect sence.

VSS even handle multi-languages projects Ok. I was involved in such a project once. Everything comes with experiense.


And another exemple, you will not be able to handle without VSS.
Lets say you have:
Programmer1 who works in Client1 place.
Programmer2 who works in Client2 place.
You have a team of 10, working in your main office.
And every one works on the same project.

I would like to know:
How would you gether together all the changes in the Project, lets say weekly? If Not VSS - it wold be quite a ......

[Gen-X]

Yuck!!!

All of that manual fiddling around just to make sure you can get out Version 1.0

I hope you realise that human error in creating all those branches, duplicating files, sharing projects and all that would mean at some point an error would occur and you would lose your consistancy making your entire repository useless

Why go to all this trouble when there are tools available that do it all for you????

VSS was not MEANT to do version control... JUST a repository.

You ask how to gather on a weekly basis files from different sites... simple, ClearCase allows for multiple users at varied locations and will handle all of the migration and return for you as well as providing reporting facilities to let you know who has what checked out, where it is, how long it has been out etc...

Can VSS perform ANY reporting whatsoever!?!?!? It doesn't even provide the data in a database to interrogate, its all handled internally and has no reporting functions at all.

Listen, I understand your praise of VSS but it requires too much manual manipulation to try and lay out... and when you get several people working inside it at once, one person does it this way... and the other does it that way.

Now I will ask you a question... have you ferretted around the object models that come with Visual Source Safe? I *HAVE* and they are not pretty at all... ****!!! There isn't even an option to "close" a database once its opened. How good can something be when it cannot break your connection to the repository unless you shut down the applicaition or connect to a new repository!?!?!?

[LG]

Well...

1. VSS handles virsions quite OK. for last two years I experienced not troubles.

2. "A lot of manual manipulations" - but that exactly what makes programmers different from typists.

[Gen-X]

Noticed you ignored my point on no reporting facilities or ability to "disconnect" from the repository

[LG]

I realy did not understand the issue.

After you checkout/get latest version, you have your local copies and not connected to the database at all. That is how I uderstand. How else do you want to be disconected?
Maybe I have missed something.

[Gen-X]

What about reporting? you STILL ignored VSS's inability to report on the status of its files.

But regarding the disconnect, you obviously haven't seen the object models. I have been interfacing VSS internally with Visual Basic to produce a "front end" to VSS that is user friendly (read that as in NON-programmers).

To connect to VSS you simply issue the Method :

vssObject.Open "C:\Directory\srcsafe.ini", "bob", "password"

But there is NOTHING to disconnect!!!!
So you remain connected to that database until you destroy the object or connect to a new one... which is NOT the prettiest thing in the world.

That is but a SMALL example of the internal structure that VSS uses to function.

So while you can manually "mimic" some minor form of application wide version control it certainly isn't effective and it certainly doesn't make VSS a nice product.

Lets say you have 200 files in your repository and 30 programmers who work on them (Not that big a project really). I want you to tell me exactly what is checked out, when it was checked out and who has them.

Can you do it without having to manually sift through ALL the files and manually write down everyones name against the files???

It only highlights the problems with VSS. Good for stand alone but terrible for anything of any decent size.

[LG]

1. Front-end ? Can say nothing. i can hardly imagine I might need it.

2. About the second - I have missed something again. On each workstation Client VSS shuold be installed. When you run it, it shows Users and files they checked out, You can compare your own ( local ) version against master copy. For more information there Admin options.

[Gen-X]

1. Just because you feel you may not need it doesn't mean you should give advice to someone else saying VSS is good enough for them to use... You need to look at it from a global perspective and not just your own.

2. Yes you have missed something again. I think perhaps you are thinking on too small a scale. For you it may look perfect but the majority of companies are a bit larger and have more people using version control.

As I stated before... With over 200 files and 30 programmers all using the SAME repository, if I wanted to get a list of everything that was checked out, by whom and when you would have to manually go through all the projects and sub projects to compile that list.

VSS DOES NOT HAVE REPORTING FACILITIES

Is that clear enough?

[Serge]

This could be a neverending issue. It doesn't matter if you think that VSS is not the tool for you Gen-X. I really like it, and it integrates into the Visual Studio environment. It means that I have alot easier way to Check-In/CheckOut files without leaving the VB. Sometimes I even see jobs for VSS administrator, wchich I've never seen for ClearCase.
It's like this: VB works fine with Oracle, but it works a lot better with SQL Server because it's one of the member of the Microsoft family. It is the same way with VSS. This product was meant to work primarily with Visual Studio products.

And if you really like working with ClearCase, then it is just your choice and opinion. Like I said before: It could be a neverending discussion.


Just my $0.02.

[Gen-X]

That isn't the point people.

Someone asked of an ALTERNATIVE to VSS and I seem to be the only person actually answering the persons question while everyone else seems to be whinging that VSS isn't getting a fair go.

The person wants MORE than a repository, MORE than something that links in to Visual Studio...

So how about we actually like answer the person's question instead of giving our own personal opinion on how Visual Source Safe works fine for our own specific needs?


I like VSS... don't get me wrong... but its a sorce code REPOSITORY... nothinig more. It certainly isn't a development tool of any sort and THAT was what the person was asking about...


Surely you all must agree that the person's question is what counts?

[Serge]

According to to your first reply, you said that you've never actually used the product, which you so passionately defend.

[Gen-X]

Serge, Serge, Serge...

I haven't DEFENDED any product, I simply offered a suggestion of an alternative AS was asked.

Its when other people tried to convince him that VSS was what he should be using that I deconstructed VSS and NOT defended ClearCase.

I am sure there are many tools out there that can do this, Clear Case was simply the one that came to mind... but all of them offer features above and beyond VSS which is what the person wanted to know.

I noticed you actually overlooked my point about answering the persons question though

*sigh*

[JorgeLedo]

I've been working with VSS for some time and am satisfied with it. But... I'm not sure we demanded a lot from it so...But once again if it didn't gave me any error till now I believe is a good tool.

[Pallex]

I preferred SI from MKS...but its stupidly expensive, so i`m making do with VSS...

You could try reading some of the frequent threads on this topic on the newsgroup microsoft.public.visual.sourcesafe

one of the posts there yielded :

Reasons not to use VSS:

http://www.dimensionalrift.com/files...0use%20VSS.txt


VSS broken labels:

http://www.dimensionalrift.com/files...n%20labels.txt

A.

[gregghoush]

Man, this got way, away from the point at hand

So, what is better. Gen X is pointing out almost every problem i have with VSS.

So what do I ue instead?

[Gen-X]

Well Greg... I think the bottom line comes down to Money.

From what I have seen of these kinds of tools they are horrendously expensive for the good ones (And why wouldn't you charge a heap considering the market).

My first suggestion would be to do some searches on the internet for this kind of software using keywords that describe what you are looking for.

My second suggestion would be to look on sites like www.softseek.com and www.shareware.com to see if there is anything there that may be useful and possibly shareware.

My last suggestion would be to use a repository like VSS and generate your own front end to be able to handle everything VSS in its native form is incapable of doing.

At the very LEAST I do applaud Visual Source Safe for giving you an object library to mess around with, giving you the possibility to create what you need where it fails miserably.