What price Freedom in the USA

[zaza]

So I was reading recently about the iPhone's storage of location information, and syncing to my PC, and it occurred to me that amongst the many rights the US government reserves for itself upon entry to the country, one of those is the right to download every bit of information on your phone (in this link, see the pdf at the bottom of the page).

Now, the US Dept of Homeland Security does say that it will delete information after downloading it if it deems that the information is not required; however I suspect that that is very difficult to prove and likely to get "missed" by "rogue elements" in the customs bureau.


So, what do we think about this? Which is worse, that Apple has programmed the iPhone to store that info without telling anybody about it, although there's no evidence that they actually do anything with it, or that the US government feels that it has the right to demand literally anything from anybody wishing to visit the country, including personal data on your phone?


Thoughts?

[techgnome]

How'd the gov't get into this? Cite your source... until then, your poli-sci report receives an "F".

-tg

and to answer the question in the subject line, roughly 67 cents. It used to be a hill of beans, but it doesn't seem to be worth that much any more.

edit - oh, and I don't know why people are so surprised that their gps tracks where they go... I mean... that's just naivety

[zaza]

How'd the gov't get into this? Cite your source... until then, your poli-sci report receives an "F".

-tg

and to answer the question in the subject line, roughly 67 cents. It used to be a hill of beans, but it doesn't seem to be worth that much any more.

edit - oh, and I don't know why people are so surprised that their gps tracks where they go... I mean... that's just naivety

The govt got into it because every time I visit the States I get harassed. At one point, a few years back, a particularly obstreperous customs guy tried to catch me out by asking what I did (A: a student) and in that case how did I have enough money to visit (A: because I was a PhD student, for which I got paid) in which case I was earning and wasn't really a student and could I step this way.

Source in the link I provided above, from the website of the Dept for Homeland Security.

It's not GPS tracking, that's clearly the function of GPS. It's logging off the phone mast you connect to, there's no way to stop it and there's no way to delete the file (without jailbreaking).

My question was to more prompt a discussion on freedom of personal information, who has the right to hold it, should a foreign government have the right to demand it it irrespective of suspicion etc.

[Lord Orwell]

there are apps that use that information. You can draw words, etc with geographic points by walking for example.
http://www.gpsdrawing.com/gallery/land/meridians.html

[techgnome]

Much like my continued use of this website constitutes my agreement to abide by the rules here...so does your continued attempts to visit the country... you're crossing an international border... what's the problem? they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. What would you rather they do instead? Let every Thomas, Richard and Harry in?

If you ask me, they don't do enough at the borders....

-tg

[zaza]

In which case, at what point does it stop? Do they have a right to know your family details, regardless of whether or not they are present? Pictures of your kids? What about a blood sample? Or other bodily fluids? Former girlfriend / boyfriends' details? Sexual orientation? What about take a naked photo of you?

At what stage does infringement of personal liberty become too much, and how does simply crossing a border give somebody the right to demand as much of my personal information as they like? Simply because "that's the rule if you want to enter the country"? Suppose I have no choice but to travel to the USA (or rather, my alternative is to lose my job)?

[baja_yu]

When did turning into a police state ever end good? I don't think there are many countries where you get handjobs from security every time you want to get on an airplane. Not that I'm complaining, I always enjoy a freebie

[dilettante]

Well if you turn the phone all the way off then the only waypoints will be those where you use it.

[techgnome]

Fine then open up the borders, let people go where ever the heck they want, and transport what ever the heck they want... guns, rum, drugs, C4, who gives a crap right?

Baja - that's why I always travel with a packet of handi-wipes.
as a side note... airport security is a joke...

-tg

[zaza]

Interesting. I'm a fan of rum, actually. Does it have to be all or nothing? The alternative to a body-cavity search is Islamic terrorists and the entire population of Mexico?

Of course, none of this applies if you're an American citizen trying to enter the US, because you get a smile and a wave and a cheery "Welcome home, son". So an American would pretty much see this sort of treatment as something that gets meted out to non-Americans, and hence who gives a hoot about that.
Does that matter? Perhaps not. After all, each of us has an interest in preserving the safety of his own homeland, and if a bunch of foreigners are a bit inconvenienced by that, well that's just life.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Airport security isn't a joke, it's a fraud. We consistently close the door after the cows have left the barn, not before. Crossing the border is kind of like that, too. I've only done it a few times, but each time it has been unlikely that any kind of contraband would have been caught. If somebody wanted to get anything illegal into the country, it wouldn't be all that difficult. Heck, if you could carry it, I've crossed the border three times without talking to anybody (though one of those times I went out of my way to find somebody to confirm that there wouldn't be any issues).

I'd certainly be disturbed by customs wanting to download anything off my phone (though there is nothing ON my phone, since it's way out of date). Since the rest of the screening process is designed to catch the stupid or lazy, downloading data could only be a fishing expedition.

[Lord_Rat]

@Shaggy - you're talking about the Canada border aren't you?

The Mexican border in AZ is notorious for being a hassle.

[baja_yu]

I don't think policing the borders is the cure-all medicine. There are almost no borders between countries of European Union (there are actually no checkpoints or anything), and many non member countries are on the Schengen White-list allowing them free travel within the EU visa-free. So by that logic it should be anarchy and war zone in Europe.

[FunkyDexter]

Do they have a right to know your family details, regardless of whether or not they are present? Pictures of your kids? What about a blood sample? Or other bodily fluids? Former girlfriend / boyfriends' details? Sexual orientation? What about take a naked photo of you?

Sadly, all of the above. They have the right because they are the legitimate government of the US and can therefore impose whatever rules they like as long as they do not infringe upon the constitution. If those rules are out of whack with opinion in the US then they get voted back out again and the nuxt government resinds them. As UK folks we don't get a say.

And if the choice is to visit the US or lose your job then there is still a choice. Nobody ever said principle were cheap.

Do I like it? Hell no! I'm afraid the last 10 years have seen the US swing massively to the right and descend into the type of paranoia I never thought I'd see outside of Orwell and Kafka. In the 80s we all thought America was great. We lapped up Rocky IV and Top Gun and really felt that the US was really out there fighting for the worlds freedom. Now the American state and, I'm afraid, large portions of its populace, come across as arrogant, over-bearing and entirely self serving. It's a real shame from a country whose very foundations are democracy, immigration and equal rights for all - regardless of race. But then I'm not a US citizen so, while I have a right to hold that opinion, I don't expect it to get take particularly on the other side of the pond.

[Shaggy Hiker]

@Shaggy - you're talking about the Canada border aren't you?

The Mexican border in AZ is notorious for being a hassle.

Yes, that's the one I have walked across three times. I like water, but aside from that aspect, I believe that walking across the Mexican border is also generally possible. Easier to patrol, though. Still, if anybody wants to smuggle something into the US, it doesn't appear to be all that difficult, considering the vast amounts of drugs that make it into the country. I recently heard that the home-grown meth labs were in decline because of the superior availability of imported meth. There's one more manufacturing industry that we are off-shoring. Damn NAFTA!!!

[Shaggy Hiker]

Now the American state and, I'm afraid, large portions of its populace, come across as arrogant, over-bearing and entirely self serving.

What are you talking about! We've had that reputation for DECADES! Wasn't the term 'ugly American' coined sometime in the late 40's or early 50's? Back in the mid-90's, my parents were often mistaken for being Canadian over in Europe, because they had manners. They also told stories of some incredibly boorish behavior they witnessed.

Paranoia elects presidents, and it does seem to be getting worse, but I'm not at all sure that the perception is valid. It's also possible that you (and unfortunately, me) are just sliding into geezerdom.

[baja_yu]

It's also possible that you (and unfortunately, me) are just sliding into geezerdom.

Just? Didn't that happen back in 40's or 50's?

[techgnome]

Just? Didn't that happen back in 40's or 50's?

That was Shaggy.... not Martin... learn to tell the difference... I realize that us Americans all look alike, but geeezes... put SOME effort into it...

-tg

[baja_yu]

All you humans look alike to me.

[Nightwalker83]

Apple is an off-shoot of the CIA, Central Intelligence Apple.

[FunkyDexter]

Wasn't the term 'ugly American' coined sometime in the late 40's or early 50's?

I'm not familiar with it so can't really comment but the way you're percieved has definitely changed in the last decade though.

Thinking about the classic stereotype of the loud american tourist I guess you used to be viewed as loud, ignorant of other cultures, very 'stay at home', overweight and perhaps a bit thick (none of which was very complimentary or, for the most part, accurate in my experience - apart from the overwight bit) but you were still viewed as benign.

I'm afraid that's changed. The Arab world's opinion of you changing is unsurprising (but could still have been avoided) but the fact that you've managed to alienate most of Europe is really quite staggering. Unequal extradition practices, over zealous checks at customs, overly aggressive trade and commercial practices and, in particular, you're behaviour toward the French (to whom you should have been extremely grateful - you probably wouldn't even have nation without them) when they didn't agree with you over Iraq have, I'm afraid, sapped away just about every bit of sympathy Europeans ever had for you.

[baja_yu]

I just wish Americans could stop whining about gas prices. The current, outrageously high, price is about $3.8 per gallon, which translates to about $1 (0.68 Eur) per liter for European folk. That is incredibly cheap. In most of Europe you can expect to pay at least $1.9-$2.3 per liter or $7.3-$8.75 per gallon.
Maybe if they travelled abroad more they would have a better perspective of life in general.

[zaza]

Maybe it's just what you're used to. In the US, they're used to really cheap gas and subsidised food. We in Europe are used to paying through the nose for gas and food.
Similarly, we in Europe are used to being able to cross the border to other countries with little to no hassle whatsoever. We are not used to having to hand over all our personal data at the whim of another apparently friendly government.

[abhijit]

Maybe it's just what you're used to. In the US, they're used to really cheap gas and subsidised food. We in Europe are used to paying through the nose for gas and food.
Similarly, we in Europe are used to being able to cross the border to other countries with little to no hassle whatsoever. We are not used to having to hand over all our personal data at the whim of another apparently friendly government.

You think it's bad for you with an European passport.
Try traveling to Europe or America on a passport issued in the sub-continent (india, pakistan, sri-lanka, bangladesh, myanmar, nepal).

[zaza]

I have travelled to the States with a large Pakistani visa in my passport. They actually didn't seem to mind that.

[Hack]

The real crime mentioned here is purchasing an iPhone in the first place.

Serves you right! HA!

[baja_yu]

The real crime mentioned here is purchasing an iPhone in the first place.

Serves you right! HA!

Good one!

[Lord_Rat]

@FunkyDexter Most Americans have an IQ that rates lower than the speed limit.

They elected Bush after all. And then re-elected him after his first term fiasco.

So yes, the poor perception from Europe is completely deserved.

As for the French. Your comment "probably wouldn't have a country" is a long shot, but if you believe that, you need to also believe the reverse too. That without the American Revolution there would have been no French Revolution. Thus, I fail to see where The US owes anything to France.

That aside, it's American to be mean hearted to people who are different. It's wrong, but there it is. If you ask me (and you did since we are in Chit-Chat muaaa haa haa) it's how Christian-based the American society is that has caused it. Because it's part and partial to that "faith" to judge others. At least, those who attend church. Those who actually study the Bible on their own find the faith teaches differently. It's too bad the churches can't get that through their thick pastor skulls.

As for me, I'm agnostic.

How's that for the gamut of topics in a response. Heh.

[techgnome]

I have travelled to the States with a large Pakistani visa in my passport. They actually didn't seem to mind that.

I travel with two Visas.... it's accepted everywhere I want to be.

That aside, it's American to be mean hearted to people who are different. It's wrong, but there it is. If you ask me (and you did since we are in Chit-Chat muaaa haa haa) it's how Christian-based the American society is that has caused it. Because it's part and partial to that "faith" to judge others. At least, those who attend church. Those who actually study the Bible on their own find the faith teaches differently. It's too bad the churches can't get that through their thick pastor skulls.

As for me, I'm agnostic.

How's that for the gamut of topics in a response. Heh.

I'm not agnostic... I just don't go to church. and your comments above are why... some of the most intollerant people I know are the Catholics... and yet they preach that we should love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek, yadda yadda yadda.

Oh, I just checked the market. The price of freedom has gone up. It's now a fully body cavity search, an alien an@l probe, one enema, your first born and 53 cents. Exact change please, no foreign currency.

-tg

[LaVolpe]

I'm not agnostic... I just don't go to church

Don't know what rationalization you used to break your lent vow, but glad you're back.

[baja_yu]

Maybe he gave up religion for lent, like Stephen Colbert

[techgnome]

Ummm... Easter came and went... Lent's over... that's the rationalization.

Colbert didn't give up religion... just Catholicism... maybe next year I'll give up being pedantic.

-tg

[Hack]

maybe next year I'll give up being pedantic.
-tg

You can't...you might as well try giving up being techgnome.

[GaryMazzone]

Me have IQ of 2 I voted Bush opps bad to say here I guess

[Hack]

I tried to vote for Bush, but when I pulled the lever in the voting booth I got an "Invalid Use Of Null" error.

[baja_yu]

You may have misread, it was invalid use of pull. You are supposed to push for Bush.

[Lord_Rat]

Me have IQ of 2 I voted Bush opps bad to say here I guess

I thank you for your honesty.

[FunkyDexter]

probably wouldn't have a country

Meh, I have to disagree with you on this one. The American Revolution would almost certainly have happened without France but whether it would have succeeded is highly doubtful. They may not have engaged in any conclusive naval action against the British fleet but they the threat of an invasion of England and an endless succession of naval skirmishes tied the British fleet to Europe from the moment the French got involved in 1778 (I say got involved, it was the Brits who declared war in response to France recognising the American state but that was obvious provacation so you could call it either way). That seriously impeded the British ability to commit their full force which, if brought to bear, would probably have crushed American Resistance within a couple of years (you were up against the single greatest empire in the world, dont forget). Then of course there was the massive financial support the French were giving from 1776 onwards. Or the fact that they were the only major nation willing to trade with you, including munitions. And lets not forget the numerous strategists they sent to advise you. Or the fact that most Americans actually opposed the revolution at the time it began - never actually seen any research on this but I'm fairly sure the French recognition of your statehood in 1778 and the legitimacy it gave to the Revolution almost certainly contributed to the swing of opinion in favour of the rebels. And we probably shouldn't dismiss the effect the international legitimacy that recognition gave either. It's by no means certain that the revolution would have failed without French support but I really wouldn't want to have placed a bet on it.

The French revolution, on the other hand, would almost certainly have happened regardless of the events across the pond, it just might have taken a couple of extra years to come about without the extra inspiration you provided. France was already in the full grip of the enightenment and was, arguably, its originator. Certainly most of the revolutionary writers of the time were European and the very best known were French. Probably the most important was Rousseau who was actually Swiss but thoroughly Francified. The Marquis de Sade had also put some pretty inflamatory works together, and not just the ones about his rather peculiar pecadilos (you've got to admire a man who gives prostitutes peppermints so he can smell their farts - now that's a wierdo). And then there's Diderot who wrote that Kings should be executed as readily as common men (I'm paraphrasing). Or the greatest of them all: Voltaire who was already attacking the establishment of the church in 1758 when he argued that the story of Noah's Ark must be false because "where did all the animals defacate?" (I'm paraphrasing again - Voltaire did not say defacate - he used a much shorter word). The inspiration didn't come from America and neither did the spark, i.e. the bread shortages that finally pushed the people over the edge.

Of course, any opinion about history is subjective and none of us can ever really know "what if...?" but I still feel that Frances contribution to the United Sates has been massive and consistent thoughout history (apart from the lunatic De Gaulle - now there was a narcisist of the highest order). America has, of course, contributed massively to theirs in the last century and I don't mean to belittle that. The relationship is far from one sided and both have actually been great partners throughout history. They owe you as much as you owe them. But the way the state department (and the large sections of the population who laughed along with it) behaved toward the French before and during the Iraq conflict was like the kid who turns up on the first day of school and, wanting to be popular with the cool kids, points at their life long freind and says "hurr hurr, he's gay he is, let's push him down". It was childish, it made you look stupid and it alienated one of your greatest freinds and allies (and raised the eyebrows of several others).

I'm sorry of that sounds harsh, for the most part I admire the US. But that is, I'm afraid, how you appeared to us Europeans at the time.


edit> Sorry if that got long winded, I can't help myself where history's concerned.

[Lord_Rat]

I will let you hold your opinions on the French-American Revolution though I disagree with them.

But on the last, I am in complete agreement.

Though I live in the US, I don't identify with traditional American values of "Screw everyone else" "I'm the best evar".

Well, personally I'm the best ever, but that doesn't mean everyone else can go by the way side. =)

And you're right on about European perception. And I feel it's rightly deserved.

[baja_yu]

... I'll just leave this here...