Hmmm.. I am wondering...

[Siddharth Rout]

If it is 0 degrees outside today and tomorrow it is gonna be twice as cold then what will be the temperature tomorrow...

[baja_yu]

-1 (allowing for an error of +- 1 degree)

[Milk]

Well if twice as cold is the same as half as hot...

(0−273.15)/2 = -136.575°C

...a bit nippy

[Siddharth Rout]

Baja: shouldn't that be -2 then?

Milk: Twice as cold cannot be the same as "Half as hot"?

Lets say the temperature is 1 then twice as cold is 2 and half as hot would be 0.5?

Sid

[baja_yu]

If we take room temperature as normal and have it as a zero point, then 0 degrees Celsius would be -25 (if 25 is room temp). Then twice as cold as 0 would be -25.

[NickThissen]

Twice as cold has only meaning for an absolute scale, where zero is actually zero and not some arbitrarily defined point.

If it is 0 degrees Celsius, then that is 273.15 Kelvin, which is an absolute scale. Twice as cold is 273.15/2 = 136.6 Kelvin, which translated back to degrees Celsius is -136.6 degrees Celsius.

Twice as cold as 0 degrees C is -136.6 degrees C.

[Siddharth Rout]

0.00° Celsius is 32.00° Fahrenheit

so twice as cold would be 16.00° Fahrenheit

But 16.00° Fahrenheit is 264.26 K and not 136.6 Kelvin(as shown above) which shows the flaw in the calculation...

[Shaggy Hiker]

The flaw is not in the calculation, the flaw is with ourselves.

I think that is close to some famous quote, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[Siddharth Rout]

but I can't quite put my finger on it.

I now see what you mean by above...

the flaw is with ourselves.

How when two different sentences are combined can give you different meaning.. lolzzz

[Pradeep1210]

Today's temperature = 0° C
Tomorrow's temperature = 2 x 0° C = 0° C

Why are you so bothered with the calculation itself?? If you wanna stay alive, get yourself more clothes.. and fire... and wood... and... and... and... and... and... and...

[honeybee]

If it is 0 degrees outside today and tomorrow it is gonna be twice as cold then what will be the temperature tomorrow...

That would have been an interesting question had there been just one way to measure the temperature. Sadly there are two ways, and so the answer would be -8.89 degrees.

.

[Pradeep1210]

Today's temperature = 0° C
Tomorrow's temperature = 2 x 0° C = 0° C

Why are you so bothered with the calculation itself?? If you wanna stay alive, get yourself more clothes.. and fire... and wood... and... and... and... and... and... and...

or just hibernate

[Siddharth Rout]

That would have been an interesting question had there been just one way to measure the temperature. Sadly there are two ways, and so the answer would be -8.89 degrees.

.

There are more than 2 ways

How did you arrive at -8.89 degrees?

Pradeep: My body doesn't have a hibernate button

[namrekka]

Lol.....
Wonder about this:

Lets define E as empty.
Lets define F as full.

Now this is true: 1/2E = 1/2F
According aritmetic we can skip both 1/2

So: E = F

[Siddharth Rout]

You are deviating from the topic!!!!!

[Siddharth Rout]

[honeybee]

There are more than 2 ways

How did you arrive at -8.89 degrees?

Pradeep: My body doesn't have a hibernate button

Convert 0 degrees celcius to fahrenheit and then divide by 2.

re hibernating, dig a hole in the ground and bury yourself underneath. When Mendhak gives you a call, you can know it's safe to get out.

.

[namrekka]

You are deviating from the topic!!!!!

Hmmm....not so sure.
Terms like hot, cold, empty and full are all relative.
All used for giving a certain feeling about what you mean.
Zero Celsius is for you cold but for ice its hot.
So if you want serious calculations, scientific, then its just what Nick was explaining.
You have to use Kelvin for temperature and volume or mass for terms like empty or full.

[Pradeep1210]

So if you want serious calculations, scientific, then its just what Nick was explaining.
You have to use Kelvin for temperature and volume or mass for terms like empty or full.

So assuming all calculations will be done in °K only. How will you calculate Sid's problem?
If today's temperature (coldness) is 0°K and tomorrow will be twice as cold, what will be tomorrow's temperature?

[Milk]

Twice as short/cold is an awful way of saying half as tall/hot.

½°C = (°C + 273.15) / 2 - 273.15 = (°C - 273.15) / 2

½°F = (((°F + 459.67) × 5 ⁄ 9) / 2) × 9⁄5 - 459.67 = (°F - 459.67) / 2

½°K = °K/2

[namrekka]

If today's temperature (coldness) is 0°K and tomorrow will be twice as cold, what will be tomorrow's temperature?

< zero Kelvin???

[Torc]

As no system of temperature measurement was specified I would say that you need to use the SI system which is kelvin.

0 Degrees Kelvin is Absolute Kelvin.

As you cannot have anything colder than Absolute Zero in this Universe you will need to destroy it,
and create a new one with a colder temperature base point to get an answer.

Personally I am not in favour of this.

[NickThissen]

So assuming all calculations will be done in °K only. How will you calculate Sid's problem?
If today's temperature (coldness) is 0°K and tomorrow will be twice as cold, what will be tomorrow's temperature?

First of all, it's just K and not °K.

Secondly, twice as cold (or half as hot) as 0 K is still 0 K. Just like twice as short as 0 meter is 0 meter, or twice as much money as 0$ is 0$.

[minitech]

And if you convert 0 K into Celsius, you get a negative value, of course, and you can't have "half as hot" as a negative value or "half as much" (in a specific way) of a negative value because you are comparing it to negative infinity. So logically, using the Celsius method, half as hot as 0 K is negative infinity of any measurement. Which means particles will be so immobile that they will be... very immobile.

[Siddharth Rout]

I am still wondering...

[honeybee]

Well, at least you haven't frozen!

.

[Siddharth Rout]

Considering water freezes at 0 degrees, would that be half as frozen or twice as frozen?

[honeybee]

Is there any such thing as half or twice as frozen? It is either frozen or not frozen.

.

[opus]

In here we measure temperature in the length of a bodypart, and it is possible to that negative. Sorry I can't discribe in more detail (it's against AUP)

[Siddharth Rout]

That is the whole point honeybee... That is the whole point

BTW When ice for example is "Half Melt" I guess that state is Half Frozen... lolzzzz

Twice as frozen brings us back to the main topic.... see post1

Sid

[techgnome]

If you want to get into the frozen debate and look at it from a purely scientific POV, then yes something can be twice as frozen. If the amount of frozeness is measurable by the activity of the atoms in the object, consider this: If I take a beach ball in it's normal, room-temperature state, it has a certain amount of flexibility... we'll mark this as 100 on our frozy scale and is the baseline. The ball can then be put into the freezer, say for a couple days. The activity of the molecules of the ball has been reduced, sufficiently as to be considered frozen. Let's say this happens at about 60 on the frozy scale. This means that the activity of the molecules is at 60&#37; of what it was at room temperature. If we drop the ball, it will make a thud, but it will remain intact. But, if we put the ball into a vat of liquid Nitrogen, further freezing it and reducing the molecule activity to say about 10 (it's more than twice as frozen, I'm just illustrating a point) this makes the ball brittle and it will shatter when dropped. Therefore in conclusion, I submit that it is in fact possible for something to be twice as frozen and by nature twice as cold, provided the appropriate scale and measurements are utilized.

-tg

hb - the half frozen question is like the glass... half-empty or half-full... depends on which way you are going... if the glass was empty and you fill it half way then it is half full... if it was full, and you drain it, then it's half empty. Like wise, if a piece of meat was frozen and has thawed part way, then it's half thawed. If it was completely thawed and put into the freezer, then it's half frozen.

[NickThissen]

If you want to get into the frozen debate and look at it from a purely scientific POV, then yes something can be twice as frozen. If the amount of frozeness is measurable by the activity of the atoms in the object, consider this: If I take a beach ball in it's normal, room-temperature state, it has a certain amount of flexibility... we'll mark this as 100 on our frozy scale and is the baseline. The ball can then be put into the freezer, say for a couple days. The activity of the molecules of the ball has been reduced, sufficiently as to be considered frozen. Let's say this happens at about 60 on the frozy scale. This means that the activity of the molecules is at 60% of what it was at room temperature. If we drop the ball, it will make a thud, but it will remain intact. But, if we put the ball into a vat of liquid Nitrogen, further freezing it and reducing the molecule activity to say about 10 (it's more than twice as frozen, I'm just illustrating a point) this makes the ball brittle and it will shatter when dropped. Therefore in conclusion, I submit that it is in fact possible for something to be twice as frozen and by nature twice as cold, provided the appropriate scale and measurements are utilized.

No, a material can either be frozen or not frozen, there is no 'half frozen' state. Freezing is the phase transition from liquid to solid. As such, a beach ball is already 'frozen' because it is solid (well, most of it is). Heat it up enough and you'll end up with a liquid (a pool of molten plastic). But you can't cool it down further and get it to 'freeze more'.

I also highly doubt a beach ball soaked in liquid nitrogen would shatter when dropped. Many objects do, such as fruits, but that is because there is a lot of water in them. The water freezes and makes the object rigid and then it can shatter. But I doubt there is enough water in a beach ball (it is plastic after all) that it would make it rigid enough to shatter it. Even if there was I would expect the frozen water to shatter but leave the beach ball largely intact because the plastic is pretty soft.

I could be wrong as I've never tried it with a beach ball (or any other kind of 'soft plastic'), but I did try it with various things and found that not many objects shatter, except the ones that indeed contain alot of liquid. One tip: don't try it with (eaten) bubblegum. The effect is hilarious at first (hundreds of tiny frozen fragments scattering across the floor), but it is not so much fun when the fragments heat up and become sticky old gum again

[techgnome]

If a solid is already frozen, then explain the steaks in my freezer. They are, as you say a solid, therefore already frozen.

As for the beach ball... seen it first hand at a demo at JPL. Along with a half dozen roses.

-tg

[NickThissen]

If a solid is already frozen, then explain the steaks in my freezer. They are, as you say a solid, therefore already frozen.

As for the beach ball... seen it first hand at a demo at JPL. Along with a half dozen roses.

-tg

Meat contains lots of water. That's why dried meat looks so completely different. And that's why dried meat is often crunchy instead of not crunchy (what's the word for that lol) like raw meat. The water (and other fluids) in the steaks in your freezer is frozen. The meat itself is not.

A rose is another classic example and is more or less the same as a banana, apple, etc, which are also often shattered in these demos. Plants and fruits also contains loads of water, which is why this works.

As for a beach ball, apparently it does contain enough water to become rigid enough to shatter when the water freezes. As I said I never tried that before. I did try those plastic gloves (surgical gloves?) and they didn't freeze. Maybe I should have given them more time but they got extremely cold and started leaking, so I stopped (spraying LN around at random is not a good idea lol).


My reasoning still stands though, a frozen object cannot be 'frozen more'. When undergoing the phase transition from liquid to solid (freezing), the temperature remains constant (0 degrees C for water), until all the water is frozen. After that you can decrease the temperature all you want, but all the water is already frozen so that won't matter much.

The only way one could define 'half frozen' is if not all the water has turned into ice yet. Melting ice for example (also exactly 0 degrees C) often has chunks of ice and pools of water, which I guess you could see as being half frozen.

[minitech]

What would happen to the beach ball, cold enough, would be that it would crumple because the air decreases in volume and the moisture in the air would freeze and make the beach ball hard... right? I don't have liquid nitrogen sitting around like everyone else so I can't test it.

[kregg]

The temperature will be UNDER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!