somewhat off topic but not completely

[Lassie-The-Cow]

I'd like to ask anyone with experience...

Someone told me that in order to succeed in computer programming one must attend university and get a BS in Comp Sci or a Bachelors in software engineering or something.

Someone else said that technical college training will allow for continued advancement.

Obviously one can find jobs with either training, and the degree will get you more $$$ than the diploma, but HOW MUCH is this difference? Can anyone give any actual numbers?

Also a lot of job postings might ask for a BS or "equivalent experience". How much is "equivalent experience" for someone who has taken say a 3 year technical program at a college, learning C/C++, Java, VB and some perl and COBOL and networking etc.?

Does all that extra math theory offered at university really make a big difference in the workplace?

Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated.

[Gen-X]

I am not sure about America but I can tell you about Australia... I am assuming that computing is *similar* the world over.

This is a very fickle and very strange industry... some parts of it are very fastidious and old and like to go by the book... companies of this nature require their staff to be "fully qualified" as they put it and this generally means a Comp Sci degree. While there are other diploma's etc, people with this staunch attitude feel that nothing but the best will do.

There is another quarter however that see the potential of a person as being worth more than a piece of paper that says you can give University Lecturers what they want... this quarter look for the innovative, the dreamers and those who can cut code while standing on their head, wearing tie-die and letting their hair grow down to their shoes.

What I have found from my own experience is that you need "SOME" piece of paper to get in the door. Without it you will be overlooked more times than considered. If it ever came down to choosing between someone who had pieces of paper.. they would usually side with the person that has the LARGEST piece of paper. Its common sense.

As for additional money etc.. you have to consider your time out of the work force. Lets say you can do a computing course for 12 months and come out with enough knowledge to get a job. Lets say your wage starts at $25,000 for the 3 years that follow you finishing that course.

That means you have earned $75,000 in 3 years.

Now imagine doing a University degree and having to spend 4 years to do it... During that time you didn't earn anything.

If you were to overlay these 2 methods you get the following :

Time      12 Month diploma        Degree
1 Year       $       0            $       0
2 Years      $  25,000            $       0
3 Years      $  50,000            $       0
4 Years      $  75,000            $       0
-------------------------------------------
5 Years      $ 100,000            $  50,000
6 Years      $ 125,000            $ 100,000
7 Years      $ 150,000            $ 150,000

So as you can see above... lets say that getting a degree means you earn twice as much as you do with only a diploma (That is extremely unlikely but why not go overboard).

You can see that in the beginning the degree left you worse off but it did eventually catch up... hopefully after about 7 years you will have had enough experience to make it irrelevant what degree you had.... But thats another kettle of fish.

My philosophy was simple... get a degree (In this case a Comp Sci)... forget honors, forget PhD and all that... Get the bottom level but Scientific degree and then WORK.

Now I am the managing director of my own company (all be it only 2 employees) earning within the top 5% of the people where I live as a computer consultant contracting out to major companies and the government.... and all this has happened over the last 6 years since leaving Uni.

Hope it helped

[Rapmaster]

Wow... do people in Australia really get a $25,000 raise every year!?


If so I'm on the next plane ...

[Gen-X]

That is cumulative my dear boy

[KenX]

I beg to disagree that one must have graduated
from a university with a BS Comp Sci (or a
computer related) course to succeed in computer
programming... I took up Chemical Engineering
and I am even a licensed one (Chemical Engineer,
that is), but (modesty aside) I can say that
I am successful as far as computer programming is
concerned. And I am not the only one with this
case. In my company alone, almost half of the
workforce in our IT department (my dept.) took
up courses not related to computers, and more
often than not, they (or we) are even better...
What I am saying is, as long as you project
yourself as "highly trainable", then you have
a fair chance in getting the job you want.
A case in point: Mr. A is a graduate of say,
BS Mathematics with impeccable grades and
good personality; Mr. B is a mediocre graduate
of BS Comp Sci. Both are applying for the same
position (IT related). Who would you choose?

As for "equivalent experience"...
I would say a one-year experience in a good
IT company more than outweighs the value of
taking up a 3-year technical course ("experience
is the best teacher!").

[Serge]

According to last job ads the companies are asking for a college degree OR 4 years of experience.

What this means is, they know that even if you don't have a degree, but you had your hands dirty for 4 years or more, then you're more then qualified and the salary would be equal.

But if you want to make a real buck, then the best way to go is Cosulting, instead of Salaried Employee. Trust me guys, I've done both.

[Sam Finch]

I'm not getting a degree in Computer science or anything. Get a degree in what your good at and do as much tempory work as possible while your doing it, If you get the experience while your doing your degree you get the best of both worlds and you get to be richer than all your freinds with bar jobs and less deformed than the ones who make money volenteering for medical experments.

[Iain17]

I must say i agree that you do not need a degree to get into computer science, but it helps.

If anyone is planning on doing a degree, i suggest you go for a sandwhich course. That is a job placement in yuor second or third year.

I am on my third year of a Software Engineering degree (placement Year), and i am loving it so far. And when i finish i will have a years expeience as well as a degree under my belt. That is if i pass of course.

[SonGouki]

It all depends on where you want to work.

Usually a diploma or accumulated "hands-on" experience is good for a job in the government, which pays well enough, but definitely has its down sides (legacy systems, red-tape, less programming and more business). However, it is a good foot in the door. The private sector won't even look at you, usually, except for maybe help desk.

A degree, on the other hand, will almost certainly get you a job with a private company, but the course is usually 4-years and is the same basic course as the one for the diploma with extra "fluff" that you'll probably never need.

With that said, I took the 2-year diploma route and got a co-op job in the government for 2 terms. Right now I'm coming to the end of my second term, and I already have 2 offers: one from the government for $35,000 starting and $45,000 within a year, with full benefits; and the other from a consulting firm for $80,000 with no benefits. Keep in mind that these are offers for immediate work, before I've even completed my diploma.

So, really, it all comes down to your skill-level, and a little bit of chance.

[Edited by SonGouki on 03-30-2000 at 12:56 PM]

[Serge]

Don't get me wrong guys. I have a CS degree, but all I'm saying is that companies are looking for experience more then just a degree. I've interviewed many people, and my main goal was to find people with good skillset. Even if that person doesn't know some things, it is OK. As long as a person is bright, he/she can learn new stuff really quickly. And that what counts.

But I would have to agree that a degree has more attraction for managers. Sometimes, those manageres are not programmers at all, so they wouldn't know if you're good or not, but assuming that you have a degree, you have a better choice to be brought in for an interview.

Good luck to all job seekers.