War On Terror

[Shaggy Hiker]

All politicians lie. That is another fact. Expecting to Believe them is foolish. So why anyone would be surprised that lie surprises me.

A sad fact, though I don't think they lie more than the general public, they just do it more visibly.

Often times on this planet we can not choose something good. We must choose the lesser of two evils. I would much rather choose a leader who makes a decisiion based on poor intelligence and kills a man who just kills whoever he sees fit then choose a leader who cuts your tongue out for speaking bad about him.

Fair enough, you certainly do get to choose your evil, and those are two nasty choices. Had I those choices, I'm not sure how I would choose. After all, the first one could be a case of a simple mistake, or it could be a description of Saddam himself. I have no doubt that he had a justification for all the people he had killed.

I also believe if people spent as much time and energy making the world a better place than nit-picking what was done poorly...and focus on what needs to be done now.

Actually, it is only through consideration of after-action reports that we ever really improve. You may call it nit-picking, but every significant organization intent on improving their game, whatever it might be, does the same.

Most of the people who complain about what was not done right put not a single drop of effort into improving anything, they live in the past.

Obviously, based on my last statement, I thoroughly disagree. However, my opinion is irrelevant. The bottom line is that the rest of the world will judge us based on their perception of our actions. Furthermore, our future actions will be dependent on the outcome of past actions that are deemed similar by those who are making the future decisions. The Iraq war will be seen as a disaster, the magnitude of which will be largely dependent on how people evaluate it. America is certainly not better off as a result of that war, regardless of what reason we went into it. The war has cost between one and three trillion dollars, so far, and is not over yet. The end result is not currently to our benefit, and a positive outcome is looking unlikely. After all, from an American perspective, what IS a positive outcome? A genocidal, partisan, anti-American, shiite state is certainly not positive, yet it is becoming the most likely outcome. Whoever wins power will pay us lip service as long as our forces are available to help them consolidate power, but it will be nothing more than that.

While I agree with you Dexter that a bad man is not a good reason to go to war, again I would need volumes to properly explain myself. A bad man who kills thousands of innocent people and continues to do is (at least in my mind) a good reason and always will be. Even if more people die in the war, it is the only way to improve the planet in that particular aspect.

I agree. If that was our motivation, then I would have no problem with it. However, much of the rest of the world is well aware that we have supported dictators (including Saddam at his most murderous) in the past, and continued to do so even as we stated that we were acting to depose one. We are judged by our actions, not by the spin we put on those actions, which are seen for what it is by the rest of the world.

And honeybee, just because Saddam is paying them doesn't mean they have to be Iraqis, he will pay palestinians also. Assumptions like that cause all kinds of false information. Now you sound like Bush.

The Palestinians get used as pawns by all sides. Iran has supported more of those actions against Israel, and Iran is Shiite, while Saddam was Sunni. While Iraq did participate in the Yom Kippur War (ineffectually, and late), they weren't big players compared to some others. You complain that HB is making assumptions, yet your argument is based on the assumption that Saddam was funding anti-Israel activities. Since it is clear that Iran was, I would rather expect that Saddam was not. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

[honeybee]

Obviously you can't. He is not the only source by far. You forgot to mention for some reason not to trust CBS, because they are a source also. CBS is quoting Rumsfield and Safi. So if Rumsfeld is lying then so is CBS, CNN, TIME and Newsweek. (all sources where I received similiar information, and not just Rumsfeld quotes). Arab families also admit this, so now you think they are working with Rumsfeld? Ha ha ha ha ha. Now you gave me a good laugh!! I wouldn't post something where I have doubts or it is the only source without qualifying it. I do plenty of research on certain topics to get a good idea of what's going on. You have to frequently read between the lines. It is true that Saddam paid suicide bombers, there are many sources. I suggest you do your own research because even liars tell the truth sometimes. You can't believe me or anyone for that matter. The key here is RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH. Then research some more, because what you find out today can change tomorrow.

You need a very good analytical mind to be able to decipher what is going on. And there is always an uncertanity percentage, which can be so low as to be insignificant.

I would suggest you go through the archived threads immediately after 9/11 and during the Iraqi invasion. Most of the members here have trashed most of the news websites. Your RESEARCH will no doubt be based on whatever info is available on the websites. So there is a possibility that it may not be entirely correct.

If I had to pick between Bush and Obama, I would actually prefer to sound like Bush (applying your principle of choosing the lesser evil).

Shaggy Hiker, that last post of yours is kinda bad, you have summed up the discussions so well I feel there's no need to post any more. Congratulations!

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[Shaggy Hiker]

I hate killing threads, and hope that I have not done so again. It kind of sucked to see my name up there for that long hiatus of the last month or so.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

This thread is not dead yet, all it requires is another post from MarMan to needle someone and it will run and run.

[MarMan]

OK, I'll post, but I'm done. There are so many inconsistencies and errors in some of the posts its like beating a dead horse. Just wanted to educate some folks, but they stick to false beliefs and incorrect assumptions because that's what they want to believe, they don't care about truth, facts or reality. Just ranting and raving. They're only hurting themselves. But some will never know since they don't actually do anything except make excuses. You can't teach an ignorant person if they do not wish to learn. Have fun with this post. I'm unsuscribing.

Have fun!!

[FunkyDexter]

The problem, MarMan, is that every single one of those criticisms can be levelled at your own argumrnets.

In all honesty, I've been quite facetious and flippant in my responses to you, but only because I immediately recognised that you, yourself, weren't going to engage in any meaningful debate. Any source that agrees with your argument is quotable but any that contradicts you can be explained away as lies. At one point you post that it's a waste of time to examine the reason for going to war and then declare that "RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH" is the only way to discover a meaningful truth.

You're happy to declare your own, unsubstantiated opinion as fact but when others offer their opinion, qualifying it as their opinion, you dismiss it as "your opinion" as if that somehow makes it less valid than your own. If anyone tries to engage in and examine any of the points you've raise you've simply said that we can't understand because we are unable to understand the 'big picture' or that your more 'pragmatic' than the rest of us or that we cn't see more than one or two layers deep.

Essentially you've said to the rest of the forum "I'm smart, you're dumb, I'm right, you're wrong". It's unsurprising that nobody has come onto the thread to support your view, not because nobody would agree with it (I know for sure that there are members of this forum who do) but because you essentially tried to make it by telling us we were too stupid to keep up with you.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

OK, I'll post, but I'm done. There are so many inconsistencies and errors in some of the posts its like beating a dead horse. Just wanted to educate some folks, but they stick to false beliefs and incorrect assumptions because that's what they want to believe, they don't care about truth, facts or reality. Just ranting and raving.

MarMan,

If you actually decided to have a discussion rather then dismiss everything anybody posted then maybe people would listen more.

You dont have to agree with us, i will always listen to the other arguments but if a currently disagree (which is generally based upon evidence i have seen or heard or read and yes other people also read up deeply on subjects just like yourself) with them then it generally takes some sort of proof or 'hard facts' as you put it to change my mind, or at the very least a very good logical argument.

You have presented none of these in this thread.

There are so many inconsistencies and errors in some of the posts

What like these ones !!

'Al qaeda and taliban fighters were being treated in Iraq hospitals'

'and it (removing Saddam) reduced the number of suicide bombers killing innocent people in Israel'

'It is true that Saddam paid suicide bombers'

Were did you get these supposed facts from ?

Why do you refuse to discuss your claims ? and instead dismiss any criticism as inaccurate or wrong.

Also what convinces you that you categorically know more than everyone else ?

[honeybee]

Also what convinces you that you categorically know more than everyone else ?

Does God exist?

.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Does God exist?

What's your definition of God ?

[FunkyDexter]

Does God exist?

Yes. He told to post this personally. Actually, it might just have been the voices in my head...

[honeybee]

No, I was wondering aloud if God had materialized as MarMan ...

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[Justa Lol]

People can burn flags without much reaction.
Muslim's can intentionally incite anger and then play victim.
But a guy cannot burn quran's because he's taken so much heat from the government and citizens.

or how about a some sense of humor drawing the face of a prophet?

Muhammad's Face Drawings

no offense to any Muslims viewing this, but seriously, how can someone kill over 100 people over a few drawings? i have never seen a muslim been killed over a burnt flag, and why the hell waste the time on getting these flags, and then burn them?

personally, i don't see anything wrong with burning a flag or a piece of cloth, or drawing a prophet in a funny way.

Does God exist?

i come from a country where people claim that 100% of the population believes in a specific god or lord as some prefer to say it.. but this is not true, i believe in my own wisdom and strength.