Career Advice - Stuck in a Rut

[The_Grudge]

About 5 years ago, I was hired on at my current employer. I had had some previous experience with them so they hired me right over the phone, no questions asked. The problem was (and is), that I was hired onto a temporary contract, filling in for someone on a leave of absence. Here I am five years laster and some motions are being made to get me on full time into this position. The trouble is, there is a union where I work and it's not quite as simple as rolling me in. In order for the job to go permanent, it has to be posted for an open competition at my organization.

In the beginning, this job was fairly basic and involved no programming. Since that time, I have introduced several apps for the organization and complete work that the prior person could not even dream of. So naturally, I have asked for a raise. My boss agrees that a wage increase is fair, but he told me today that we can't really post this position at a higher wage, as that would invite even more competition for me when the job is posted.

My question is, after 5 years of growing this position on my own into something much more, I'm basically being asked to continue to receive a lower wage if I want any shot at a permanent position with the company.

That doesn't seem right to me, but I do see my boss's point about keeping the position where it's at for a better shot at the job. Am I being a big wuss here by laying down and taking this, or after five years of this, am I in a position to make a few demands?

Would they be screwed without me? YUP.

[penagate]

You don't sound confident of retaining the job if it's posted. Why is this? Presumably you'd be the one ideally qualified for it since you've spent five years in the position already.

Your title — "Stuck in a Rut" — makes me think that maybe you're a bit tired of it in any case. Perhaps you'd be better off making preparations to leave now, before you're either rolled or have to accept your low wage.

Also, I moved your thread.

[dee-u]

Why not just try getting the permanent position then afterwards negotiate for an increase?

[mendhak]

About 5 years ago, I was hired on at my current employer. I had had some previous experience with them so they hired me right over the phone, no questions asked. The problem was (and is), that I was hired onto a temporary contract, filling in for someone on a leave of absence. Here I am five years laster and some motions are being made to get me on full time into this position. The trouble is, there is a union where I work and it's not quite as simple as rolling me in. In order for the job to go permanent, it has to be posted for an open competition at my organization.

In the beginning, this job was fairly basic and involved no programming. Since that time, I have introduced several apps for the organization and complete work that the prior person could not even dream of. So naturally, I have asked for a raise. My boss agrees that a wage increase is fair, but he told me today that we can't really post this position at a higher wage, as that would invite even more competition for me when the job is posted.

My question is, after 5 years of growing this position on my own into something much more, I'm basically being asked to continue to receive a lower wage if I want any shot at a permanent position with the company.

That doesn't seem right to me, but I do see my boss's point about keeping the position where it's at for a better shot at the job. Am I being a big wuss here by laying down and taking this, or after five years of this, am I in a position to make a few demands?

Would they be screwed without me? YUP.

Sometimes, the only way to get a raise is to

1 - get a job offer from elsewhere
2 - show it to your bosses, ask them to match it
3 - if they realize they're screwed without you, they will match it
4 - else, you go away.

Don't stick around because of a dangling carrot at the end of the tunnel. If you want something to happen, you have to make it happen yourself.

[RhinoBull]

Your title — "Stuck in a Rut" — makes me think that maybe you're a bit tired of it in any case...

I was thinking of the same thing - you don't sound happy anymore while talking about your job and that is the exact moment when you need to move on.
Anyway... People often argue over employment type (perm vs contract) when in fact each type has its perks.
IMHO there is no such thing as "permanent job" - any employee can be terminated any day, any time (I've seen this more than once).
The only difference between perm and contractor is how they get paid. Of course there are benefits, etc but that's basically it.
Since it sounds like your employeer has no intention raising your wage what I would do is exploring job market while working.
It wouldn't be smart to simply quit because of wage disagreement - it's still an income (just don't mention to anyone that you're looking).
If you can get another contract (hopefully long term) it's probably worth considering - I worked with people who had contracts at one place from 10 to 20 years and still going...

Good luck.

[The_Grudge]

Well, the "stuck in a rut" quote wasn't to say my Job is bad...more to point out that I've been on this "we'll hire you soon" wagon for 5 years now. That's the rut.

I love the position, and I like working here. I'm just tired of being compensated for a basic position while writing software and creating databases for the organization.

I have a plan in mind, will let you guys know how it pans out.

[RhinoBull]

... I've been on this "we'll hire you soon" wagon for 5 years now. That's the rut...

That may go on for another 5 years. Move on, don't trust them - they do nothing but take advantage of the situation.

[The_Grudge]

I'm going to meet with my boss and say that this ends now (pay me properly and hire me), or I'm beginning to search for employment elsewhere effective immediatley. I'll be professional about it, but firm also. This has gone on long enough.

This may sound like a bad way to go about things, but I actually had a job interview a little while back and as soon as he found out he was on the phone making calls to get me to stay.

I'm just calling their bluff this time. Hire me on, pay me what I deserve, and if you can't do that, I'll be on my way.

Like I said, I know this sounds like a bad idea, but my gut's telling me this will work. My departure would seriously hinder this department's ability for months on end, and they know it. They're not about to let me walk out.

[DeanMc]

In fairness just because they have to post the job they don't have to give it to anyone else. All they have to do is post the job and do interviews with all candidates and then choose you. It's done every single day by pretty much every organisation out there that need to have "open" interviews.

I don't see what the issue is here. They do what I said then higher you with a raise. If they have an issue with that either that are naive or you are, in either case both may mean you have to look for a new job if you want better wages.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Your basic plan sounds reasonable if you know your employers well. On the other hand, it may be that you are talking to the wrong person. There are people who are aggressively trying to grow their empires, there are people who are just drifting along, and so forth. If your boss was going to fight for you, why has he not done anything for five years? You aren't a high priority. Will lighting a fire make you a higher priority? That depends on what motivates your boss.

Everybody is replaceable. If your boss doesn't get fired for your departure, then he may not see things your way. I have seen the irreplaceable person leave. I've even been the irreplaceable person who left. The world doesn't end. You have shown them what the position must accomplish, they would simply write the new job for the skills they think they need. All jobs are written that way.

Go for it, but be realistic. Everybody sees the situation from their own, unique, perspective.

[ntg]

How large is the organization you're working for? Is it privately owned or is state-ownership involved?

[The_Grudge]

All they have to do is post the job and do interviews with all candidates and then choose you. It's done every single day by pretty much every organisation out there that need to have "open" interviews.

The problem is that I'm not in the workers union. Posting the job would be done first to members of the union only. Assuming none of them want the job or meet it's requirements, then it goes to the "outside world" where yes, they could just pick me.

The problem comes up if they post it internally and someone else at the organization (about 2500 people) meets the "minimum job requirements". That's what I believe my boss is worried about. Having to replace me right now would make his life difficult - it's much easier to keep me going as is.

[ntg]

If that's how the organization works, there's not much chance of a radical change. If the union's strong (and from what you're saying it apparently is) then your boss may also worry about political fallout if they twist the rules in order to create a job posting that essentially photographs yourself and the union finds out or someone rats you out.

I think that you should have asked this question at least a couple of years ago. In my opinion, getting a job offer from someplace else and asking your current boss to match it isn't a good idea for two reasons. One, this might generate a negative outlook towards you no matter how professionally you do it. Two, your boss appears quite content to let you go under paid as long as the job gets done and doesn't seem to want to put a serious fight for you. In essence you're unappreciated in a large company with a lot of rules that no one is willing to bend for you. My advice would be to keep your job while looking for greener pa$ture$ and simply quit when you find them.

[MasterBlaster]

I'm going to meet with my boss and say that this ends now (pay me properly and hire me), or I'm beginning to search for employment elsewhere effective immediatley. I'll be professional about it, but firm also. This has gone on long enough.

Like I said, I know this sounds like a bad idea, but my gut's telling me this will work. My departure would seriously hinder this department's ability for months on end, and they know it. They're not about to let me walk out.

Yeah bad Idea. Make sure you have another job lined up first. Do you have any clue how much of a pain in the ass the hiring process is in a union shop? It's a lot more painfull than canning a contractor and taking a few months to replace him.

Also, I would fire you on the spot if you said that to me.

[Max Peck]

Yeah bad Idea. Make sure you have another job lined up first. Do you have any clue how much of a pain in the ass the hiring process is in a union shop? It's a lot more painfull than canning a contractor and taking a few months to replace him.

Also, I would fire you on the spot if you said that to me.

Concur. Trying to strong-arm your boss is not going to go down well. Regardless of your tenure in the shop it is still their shop.

If I was your boss and you came to me with an ultimatum like that, I'd show you the door immediately. Rather than that it sounds like it's time to look for something else. Also ... be careful about accepting a counter-offer from your present employer. They might "match" your offer but it will only last long enough for them to find your replacement. If they were REALLY interested in paying you at the rate you want it would have happened by now.

FWIW,

-Max

[Shaggy Hiker]

I think there are ways to bring the subject up without making it appear so confrontational that you will ruffle your boss's feathers. After all, you have five years of experience with the guy. Many people will act on the principle of "better the problems you know than the problems you don't." Whenever you hire anybody, there are good things about them and bad things about them.

On the other hand, if I were to say that to my boss, he would just look sad and say goodbye. He has no ability (nor does anybody above him, really) to alter my pay to any significant extent. It sounds like your boss may not have that ability, either.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

In my opinion, getting a job offer from someplace else and asking your current boss to match it isn't a good idea for two reasons.

I see no problem with this approach as long as your are prepared to leave. I have done it as i felt i was being undervalued, and although i was then offered a pay rise it was not what i wanted so i left and took the new job.

As someone else has said, you have more leverage if you already have another offer, just going in and making demands normally doesn't go down well, it might be better to try having a discussion with your boss let him know you are unhappy with your contract situation and find out exactly what power he has.

The reason he may have not hired you permanently is that he literately cant with out going through the hiring process you have talked about.

Also as you are not a permanent employee you have far fewer rights and it will be incredibly easy for them to let you go so be careful.

A possibly naive question for you, is it impossible for you to join the union ? i can understand that you may not want to be a permanent member of a union for your own reasons but would it not be possible to join the union for the purposes of applying for the job and then leave it once you have the permanent position ?

[RhinoBull]

Getting an offer from another company and hopping for a counter offer from your current employeer is very bad idea: you may get it ... but ... they already know that may leave any day so they may let you go any day as well.
That's how it works in most cases. In exchange they will get someone who is hungry for work and is willing to work for less. In the end who's going to win? Your current employeer of course.
So, like I said - move on; you will apreciate this later. You cannot stuck with the same company for 20 years - you need to explore what else is out there. Lots of opportunities are waiting for you - you just have to find one that fits you best.

Good luck again.

[FunkyDexter]

Getting another offer and then holding it up as an ultimatum might work... once! As Rhino said, though, it does send a bad impression and there's no way you can really do it without coming across as confrontational. You'll just be storing up bad will for the future. On the other hand, letting your boss know you're feeling undervalued and may consider going elsewhere seems fine to me as long as you are professional and non-confrontational about it.

Walking in and saying "I'm leaving unless you do exactly as I say" isn't going to work. On the other hand, saying "Look, I really like working here and really want to stay but I'm at a stage in my life when I really need some security. Is there anything you can do because otherwise I might have to look elsewhere and I really don't want to" is far more likely to produce results.

The real question, as others have said, is wether your boss is actually capable of producing the result your after. From what you've said your boss probably would just offer you the job and the raise if he could but your real stumbling block is the union.

Honestly, though, that sounds like half the story to me. I've only got experience of UK unions but over here unions generally try to work in partnership with the company rather than confrontation. It's not in their interests (or the interests of their members) to hamstring the company unneccessarily (unions are there to get the best for their members and that's usually served by helping the company to be successful - rampant exploitation aside). I can believe that brand new positions have to be advertised internally but your position already exists and is filled with an apropriate candidate. Moving someone from Temp or Contract to Perm is not the same as creating a brand new position and, over here, I would expect the union agreement to acknowledge that. If I was you I'd suggest talking to a union rep and finding out what the rules are - even though you're not a member they'll usually give you information, they just can't represent you. It's actually quite likely that your boss can just make you permanent but isn't fully aware of the rules himself.

Finally, if the union really do block you then there's nothing you can do. Your choice then is to go elsewhere or swallow it. And if you swallow it then you're going to have to keep swallowing it. Those rules aren't going to change.

[abhijit]

In your case, the best option would be to go away. As others have pointed out, the boss will see the counter offer as a threat. So even if he retains you at a higher pay, he's planning to find a replacement soon. Perhaps the replacement will be cheaper for him.

[whythetorment]

I was in the same position about 3 months ago. They promised that they would increase my salary because they acknowledge that I'm extremely underpaid. This was suppose to happen in July. July came and gone and nothing happened. I asked if it's going to happen and they said no sorry but their budget doesn't allow it and that they will try to increase it in December. They also said that if I do decide to look for another job, that I must inform them and then they will fight for me to stay here (counter offer). So guess what, I started looking for a new job, and I got a very very good offer, I informed them, and then they said but there is nothing they can do to keep me here. (which I'm actually glad for right now).

So I'm starting my new job the 20th and looking VERY forward to. I'm even counting down the days till when I start working there! Not only am I basically going to get 60% more at my new job, but it's a new opportunity and new challenges. So instead of me hanging around here for another 3 months hoping that they will give me my increase (which I doubt would've happened), I will get paid 60% more end of next month! I've been at my current company for 4 years now and I dread coming to work every day. Also did not want to leave at first, but now I can't wait.

So my advice, look for a new job, and get on with your life. There is alot of exciting opportunities out there. Just need to find it. Don't sit around waiting for something to happen.

[ntg]

The_Grudge, can you share with us what did you actually decide to do?

[abhijit]

So my advice, look for a new job, and get on with your life. There is alot of exciting opportunities out there. Just need to find it. Don't sit around waiting for something to happen.

It is not always easy to make that change.

[techgnome]

If it was easy, we'd all be changing jobs all the time... I think the advice is sound. Sure it may not be easy, but it's better to make the change than to let it fester. Trust me. I've been there... and it very nearly killed me.

-tg

[whythetorment]

It is not always easy to make that change.

I never said it was easy But there is also no point sitting around waiting for something to happen... I know of people that been looking for work for over a year. My previous position I had to send out my CV for over 6 months to find a new job because the job market is competitive.

If you just going to sit around thinking maybe "something will fall in my lap", think again.

[abhijit]

If it was easy, we'd all be changing jobs all the time... I think the advice is sound. Sure it may not be easy, but it's better to make the change than to let it fester. Trust me. I've been there... and it very nearly killed me.

-tg

I have been there twice so far and I have made the change. The third time, it gets slightly difficult.