CFL Bulbs Worry Me a Bit

[Code Doc]

Supposedly they save energy for the amount of light that they produce. Is that the sole reason why people buy CFL bulbs? On the other hand:

What happens to them during power failure brown outs? Are they really more attractive than incandescents? Are they less expensive to dim with continuous dimmer controls or switches with resistors? Are they cleaner to dispose of than ordinary incandescent bulbs?

I'm a bit confused. Forum, please advise and discuss. TIA.

[baja_yu]

I don't think they can be used with dimmers of any kind.

EDIT: Guess I'm wrong. Just noticed some started producing 'dimmable' CFLs.

EDIT2: Wiki to the rescue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cfl_bul...ication_issues A very good read by the way.

[Code Doc]

"EDIT: Guess I'm wrong. Just noticed some started producing 'dimmable' CFLs."
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Yes, but the dimmers also cost an arm and a leg--perhaps more than the cost of any energy you would ever save by using them in the lifetime of the CFL bulb.

What gas is inside current CFLs? Mercury? If so, is mercury really green? How are we supposed to dispose of CFLs? Don't they include a small ballast that add mass to the disposal that is three to four times the mass if an incandescent bulb?

[Shaggy Hiker]

There is mercury in CFLs, which is the major drawback, but I don't think it's in the gas.

I see no point in dimming CFLs. Most dimming is done for mood lighting, not energy savings, so I guess that would give people a reason for dimming them, but I have always thought that was a bit bizarre. I have had dimmers, I just haven't had much of a use for them. On or Off is good enough for me. As far as energy savings, it can be substantial for CFLs. A friend of mine switched all of his lights over at once, and saw his summer power bill cut in half. Of course, he didn't have much running for lights to cut his power in half. I went to all CFL, but I didn't get months of data prior to making the switch (I switched a month or so after I bought the house, and they screwed up my first bill in my favor, so I saw nothing).

CFLs are an interim step, though. If LED lights can get down to a reasonable price, they have every advantage over incandescent and CFL. Right now, though, they are too expensive for most people.

[si_the_geek]

According to the wiki page (thus not entirely reliable!) the level of mercury in the bulb is higher, but the total amount of mercury over the life of the bulb from power production more than compensates for it.

I have used CFL bulbs for years without significant problem. A couple of minor problems have been finding high-powered ones (my living room is bigger than average), and cheap bulbs being seriously low quality.

Standard CFL bulbs (normal power range, not dimmable) of a decent quality are fine, and do work out lots cheaper overall - even with their predicted life being a bit too generous. Even tho my high-powered bulbs are about 10 times the price of standard CFL bulbs, they do work out noticeably cheaper than the incandescent equivalent.

These days there isn't much choice over here, incandescent bulbs are no longer available in this country from the usual sources, but only from eBay specialists, etc.

[TheBigB]

Seriously? Here I can get them anywhere.
I just hate the color of CFL bulbs... They're so cold.

[BackWoodsCoder]

CFL bulbs are much more efficient then incandescent lamps. However, like shaggy mentioned, LED lights are on their way to replacing CFL's. They're a bit pricey at 15-20 bucks, but the life of the bulb + the energy savings will more then make up for it in the long run.

[techgnome]

Our house came with a couple dimmers in a few spots... never really used them even with incandescents. We have two rooms where the lights are turned on and off often - living room, dining room... and with the incandescents, we were going through a lot of bulbs. I've slowly been replacing them with CFLs... and they've stopped popping on me. So already, in less than a year, they have already paid for themselves. I've tried better quality ones (GE) and cheap ones (Lowes store brand) ... the only difference I've noticed is the coloring of the light - the GE ones tend to have the cooler bluish hue to it, makes for seeing better, but as TheBigB noted, it's got a cold feel about it. The Cheaper ones tend to have the warmer yellowish hue to it, closer to what the incandescents put off.

-tg

[Code Doc]

Well, to prove that I am not all sour grapes to CFLs, I now present my overhead bar light that illuminates racks of spirits and the cash register at my favorite restaurant and bar:



I made two of these to replace a pair of 2' fluorescent tube fixtures that were in sad shape. Each box-jointed case houses three 13-watt CFLs that shine through a plastic cracked-ice lens diffuser, (rather appropriately named, I might add). The bottom hinges down for easy bulb replacement and is held with two 1/4" stud and nut assemblies. I considered LED pucks, but the low cost and warm, soft light provided by these CFL bulbs won out.

Total cost about $15 apiece. The owners and the pretty barmaid were ecstatic after I mounted them last week and turned them on (the lights).

[MarMan]

Good discussion! One point no one mentioned is the heat. Using an incandescent with air conditioning on causes more power to be used cooling to offset the produced heat. So CFL are great in Florida, but if you live in Alaska, an incandescent in you basement, shed or garage may be ideal.

[Pradeep1210]

I use 2 CFL bulbs in each room, each installed one opposite to the other. One is 5W and other is as per room size, typically 20W - 30W. When I need a dim light, I switch on the 5W bulb, when I need full lights, I switch on the other. So I don't use dimmers at all.

[FireXtol]

CFL's come in a wide variety of color temperatures, as do most lights. I no longer use incandescents. I'm considering non-self-ballasted bulbs, though, which tend to be even more efficient and last longer with a good quality independent(in fixture) ballast.

LEDs have a long way to go.

[JuggaloBrotha]

I've been replacing the bulbs in my house with CFL ones and it's been helping my electric bill as I go as well. I did have 2 dimmer switches in my house but they were really old and one stopped dimming (it was either fully on or completely off, nothing in the middle) so I replaced both of them with standard on/off switches and those 2 rooms use CFL bulbs now too.

What I would like to do is put up 2 flood lights on the outside of my house, but I just havnt gotten to that yet.

[Shaggy Hiker]

One thing I have found with CFLs is that I have two fixtures that eat them. Both are multi bulb fixtures, though one is a floor lamp, while another is a six bulb light similar to what CodeDoc built. If I put three bulbs in the floor lamp, one will die within a month or less. The second one might last for a year or more, but at this point, I only have a single bulb in the lamp, and it has been that way for a couple years. I have given up on trying to have three bulbs in there.

As for the strip of bulbs, I currently have two burned out. These have not been the normal bulbs, though, but the round ones. As far as I can tell, the round CFL are just the typical spiral bulbs inside a frosted glass sphere, and sporting a price tag three times as high as a typical CFL. I was replacing bulbs at a pace of about one a month, or so, but it was generally the oldest bulb, so I was thinking they were just inferior quality. Now I am slowly replacing the round bulbs with standard CFL (though I used a pair that were so bright I haven't bothered replacing the two burned out bulbs).

In contrast, all the other lights in my house are CFL, and I haven't replaced a single bulb in any other fixture of any sort in seven years. Why are those two eating bulbs so fast? Any thoughts on that?

[si_the_geek]

CFL bulbs are a bit more sensitive, so a "bad" light fitting will reduce their life span significantly.

There is a timer switch for the light outside my place, and CFL bulbs only last about half the time that incandescent bulbs used to - presumably due to the power being cut "gradually" (with a bit of a flicker) rather than in the immediate way from a normal switch.

Luckily I was given a load of low power (but high quality) CFL bulbs, and as they aren't bright enough for other purposes I'm happy to waste them there. They'll run out eventually if this continues, but the switches are being replaced at some point.

[FireXtol]

Also, CFLs will die pretty quickly if turned off and on often(especially within 5 minutes is very bad for longevity).

[EntityX]

I didn't see anyone mention how CFLs can take a while to get up to maximum luminosity. I recently bought a couple of flood light CFLs at the market that I regularly bike to. I put one in my meditation room and I notice that it takes about 2 min or more for it to get up to full luminosity. When I first turn it on it seems like it's at only 50% or less of the lumiosity it eventually attains. Maybe these bulbs I just bought are not the most recent technology and were sitting on that shelf for a while. Haven't been to a real supermarket or place like Home Depot or equivalent for more than a year.

[Shaggy Hiker]

The other possibility is that it takes a while for your eyes to adjust to a low light level. I would not trust your impressions of what the light is doing, in this case, but would prefer to test it with a light meter (don't get a heavy one by mistake, it will just weigh on your mind).

On the other hand, some lights do get brighter over time, but I haven't noticed it with CFLs.

[Code Doc]

The other possibility is that it takes a while for your eyes to adjust to a low light level. I would not trust your impressions of what the light is doing, in this case, but would prefer to test it with a light meter (don't get a heavy one by mistake, it will just weigh on your mind).

On the other hand, some lights do get brighter over time, but I haven't noticed it with CFLs.

SH, I have several CFLs in different fixtures that all show a similar effect. They take about 1.5 minutes to reach full brightness. If the bulbs are facing straight down, it takes even longer. Facing straight up is optimal. So, oriented sideways means about 1 minute for full brightness. The higher the wattage, the longer it takes to reach full brightness. Luckily, they at least are not black when you first turn them on.

I have a feeling that minimal life would occur if the bulbs were (1) facing down from the socket and (2) turned off and on more frequently, but that's sheer speculation on my part. I cannot find anything scientific published on this subject.

[Shaggy Hiker]

One of the lights that eats bulbs has all the bulbs horizontal. The other has them all pointed down at a steep angle. The first light suggests that angle is not a determining factor in bulb life. As for turned off and on more frequently, one of the lights does, indeed, have that problem, but the other one is just like a normal ceiling fixture, but with more bulbs than typical.

[Code Doc]

Thanks, for the info, SH. I'll watch my 3-bulb fixture closely. It runs almost continuously at room temperature. If I notice any short life, I will notify you. These are 13-watt, soft white CFls, and they kick out beautiful light, shining through a plastic diffuser lens. Each is mounted horizontally and has about 2" clearance above and below the bulb. I have checked for heat and found practically nothing. Only a small, 1/16" crack between the lower cover and the case and a pair of 5/8" dia. holes in the top of the case allows for air circulation. These may be helping to keep things cool.

Regardless, I cannot imagine why you are having such a short bulb life.

[techgnome]

Now that you guys have brought it up... that certainly explains something. We have one light that seems to eat bulbs too... both incandescent and CFL... it's the dining room chandelier... it gets the on-off treatment a lot, and the bulbs hang at a 45 degree. And it's a dimmer system to boot (not that the dimmer actually gets used, it's usually on or off. I have a couple of flood lights in the top of my kitchen I was considering converting to CFL.... now I'm not so sure that would be a good idea.

-tg

[FireXtol]

@Shaggy, all fluorescents have warm-up periods until they get to full brightness, it's usually only a minute or two.

The ones that bug me are the delayed start ballasts, where you turn it on and it takes a moment before there's any light at all.

[Shaggy Hiker]

@Shaggy, all fluorescents have warm-up periods until they get to full brightness, it's usually only a minute or two.

Yeah, well, that happens to all of us as we get older.

[soso3]

I noticed this too with the CFLs in my bathroom. It actually turns out to be good thing. No more getting blasted by bright lights on those dark mornings.

I didn't see anyone mention how CFLs can take a while to get up to maximum luminosity. I recently bought a couple of flood light CFLs at the market that I regularly bike to. I put one in my meditation room and I notice that it takes about 2 min or more for it to get up to full luminosity. When I first turn it on it seems like it's at only 50% or less of the lumiosity it eventually attains. Maybe these bulbs I just bought are not the most recent technology and were sitting on that shelf for a while. Haven't been to a real supermarket or place like Home Depot or equivalent for more than a year.

[EntityX]

I have CFL's in other places that have the coiled glass tubing and those don't seem to have the issue of taking time to get up to full luminosity as much but the flood light CFLs I just bought one of which I'm using and is facing directly down toward the floor because it's in a hanging ceiling lamp really is quite dim when it first comes on but eventually gives off pretty good lumiosity. Code Doc said that if it's downward facing then it has the issue more but I haven't tried this particular bulb in other positions.

[Code Doc]

I have CFL's in other places that have the coiled glass tubing and those don't seem to have the issue of taking time to get up to full luminosity as much but the flood light CFLs I just bought one of which I'm using and is facing directly down toward the floor because it's in a hanging ceiling lamp really is quite dim when it first comes on but eventually gives off pretty good lumiosity. Code Doc said that if it's downward facing then it has the issue more but I haven't tried this particular bulb in other positions.

Well, that helps verifies my "theory" that downward facing means a longer time for full CFL brightness. I suspect that downward facing may shorten bulb life, but who really knows? It's amazing what data and/or experimental results that the public has not received on CFLs. The idea was to get them on the market as quickly as possible based on energy savings and expected life alone and irrespective of initial cost.

The initial cost is dropping as mass profuction kicks in, typical of all new products. So, we live and learn as we use. That's the American way.

[FireXtol]

@Code Doc, I think you're ignoring the flood light part. With a specular aluminum coating, no doubt, the flux is being concentrated into a narrow beam(like a flash light), rather than diffusing into a nearly 360 degree spherical flux. So warm up should be more noticeable with a flood light. I often fail to 'notice' a typical bulb warming up. It's kind of like watching paint dry. I've found most people couldn't tell you the wattage of a bulb. Plus, depending on the color temperature a light will appear brighter or darker at the same lumen rating.

[Code Doc]

The CFL warmup time doesn't really bother me if it is (1) less than a minute or so and (2) the bulb comes on and gives you something to see by.

However, I have been told the CFLs will behave in cold temperature exactly the same way that typical tube flourescents operate. That means that when it gets really cold in my garage this winter, they will not work at all.

I am having a hard time believing that. So, I have decided to experiment by inserting them into the garage door opener lights just to test the theory. I may drop a couple into the back porch lights also. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[EntityX]

The CFL floodlights that I bought came in a 3 pack. I was only using 1 but decided to make use of the other 2. I noticed that the last one I put in seemed to turn on brighter than the first one that I was reporting on. I moved the bulb to the lamp where I had the first and it became very obvious that this bulb was turning on brighter at the start than the first. These are Sylvania brand all of the same type with identical specifications but their behaviour isn't identical in terms of how bright they are when they first come on. I don't know what inconsistency there is between the two bulbs to cause the different behaviour. Not sure how the 2nd one I installed compares to the others. Maybe the bulb that is so dim when it first comes on(which I now have as a hall light that I hardly ever turn on) is not typical for this particular bulb. Maybe Sylvania needs to step up thier quality control during manufacture.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I have been running a CFL in my garage door opener for several years (probably 5-6). The bulb has never been replaced, and is doing well. However, the coldest it gets is probably only single digits, and that has only happened a couple times over those years. Most winters, the coldest would be low 20s, or so.

[Code Doc]

I have been running a CFL in my garage door opener for several years (probably 5-6). The bulb has never been replaced, and is doing well. However, the coldest it gets is probably only single digits, and that has only happened a couple times over those years. Most winters, the coldest would be low 20s, or so.

That's excellent, Shaggy, and good enough for me. My garage never falls into single digits (degrees F) because the garage is attached to the house. It might at the far northwest end, but I've never measured it. I'll try the CFLs in my two door openers immediately. The bulb manufacturer might make a difference.

The brighter the better in a garage, so I'll use the 13-watt daylight bulbs that seem to kick out more lumens. I could use 22-watt CFLs but they seem to take longer to reach full brightness. Thanks again for the info. BTW, after four weeks, the barmaid and all the patrons of the restaurant really like the two fixtures I made as shown in post 9.