Do I dare post news of a iMac refresh in a Microsoft forum? I do

[Icyculyr]

Arguing with someone about the way they perceive you will only ever reinforce their perceptions.

What can I say? I'm sensitive, when someone says something it bothers me, denying it makes me feel better, which is why I reply to every comment calling me a fan boy or whatever else, saying that I'm not, etc.

So, it's a bit of a catch 22 for me then lol? Its life, it'll probably change over time and I'll care less of what others say or think of me.

The tooth fairy doesn't exist.

Also, I might add, the 5750 in the 27" iMac is actually a 5850M 1GB, which is a good thing, considering the 5750M (Apple only uses mobile GPUs in their iMacs) is significantly worse than the previous generation 4850M.

[penagate]

Macs are often, for lack of better word, discriminated against, many (particularly PC users) see them as overpriced machines. Well, I dislike that, they aren't really much more expensive, at least in some lines, so I enjoy trying to provide an argument that shows that they are not overpriced, but in fact similar, or at least fairly priced for what you're getting.

I develop user interfaces for a living so my main gripe with Apple products comes from that perspective.

When you buy a Mac, what you get is a very nice looking machine (lots of money spent on aesthetics and packaging... nice for a car, but worthwhile for a computer?) with an awful user interface. The two devices which you spend most of your time using to interact with the computer — the keyboard and mouse — are of dreadful design and construction. Never mind how many buttons the mouse has; how are you supposed to hold it in your hand? How are you supposed to type seriously on a keyboard which has almost no tactile feedback? And the operating system itself, for all its Unix roots, is no more stable than an up-to-date Windows, and less stable (and less powerful, and slower) than a good Linux distribution.

Even if the hardware was of equivalent price to an equivalently specified custom PC (which is not the case here) the usability level is inferior. Hence: overpriced.

My opinion is that Apple don't seem to be capable of making good user interfaces, just nice-looking ones.

An example: the iPhone. I own a 3G model. Originally I bought it to develop mobile apps, but then I realised that every man and his iMac-using dog had had the same idea long before me.

The phone looks nice. It sits comfortably in the palm of my hand and slides nicely into (and out of, usually at the most inconvenient moments) my pocket. The home screen with all its icons is okay, but reminds me a bit of very early desktop operating systems. The phone is clearly app-oriented rather than task- or data-oriented, which seems to indicate a design approached from the perspective of a software developer rather than an end-user. (OSX's dock is the same, and even more confusing because it conflates data and apps.) The indicators for messages, emails, and missed phone calls are little numbers in red circles which annotate the appropriate app icons, but don't really convey any useful information. To actually find out what they represent I need to open the app in question — and if multiple indicators are showing, I need to navigate through each app in turn. (In the case of the Mail app I need to manually find where new emails are because it doesn't take me to the right inbox even if only one inbox has unread mail.) The home screen also doesn't have any way of showing upcoming appointments from the calendar — a basic feature that has existed on mobile phones since they became personal organisers as well as communication tools — so to get a "to-do" list I have to open the calendar app. For this reason I barely use the calendar and only find it useful to set reminder alerts.

Why can't the home screen tell me what I want to know rather than always showing me apps I already know about?

The iPhone OS is also very slow. I don't know why it is so slow, because it doesn't seem to do very much, and when it does, it frequently crashes. Even with Wi-fi and Bluetooth disabled, the UI is less responsive than a basic 3G Nokia phone which I can buy for $50 from Target. For example, the Settings app appears to open straight away but it takes between 2-10 seconds for the screen to populate with controls. This is exaggerated when the battery is low, which wouldn't be a problem except that the battery life is totally crap.
On most occasions I have trouble unlocking the phone using the sliding control: it just bounces straight back from the right-hand side to the left. And far worse: approximately 1 out of 5 times when I receive a call while the phone is locked, the interface completely freezes so I am unable to take the call. This is unacceptable for what was a $1000 state-of-the-art smartphone.

I could go on but these complaints represent what I think most people find with Apple products. They are sold not only on aesthetics but on usability, but in actual fact are very difficult and frustrating to use on a daily basis. They are often advocated to be easier to use for people with no prior experience with other platforms, but I have not seen any evidence to support this assertion. I have not seen any problems experienced by non-technical Windows users that could be solved by instead using a Mac.

This is why your Apple and Mac news is met with scorn at a forum such as this. We are a community of software developers and advanced technology consumers, who understand the purpose of technology and how it should work.

[baja_yu]

Let me give you a definitive argument as to why Macs are overpriced.

Take for example the new iMacs that just came out. Check the price. Now, do you remember the prices of the old models? If no, look at the prices now. They are exactly the same. There's no price correction with Apple. Do you really think that the components in that iMac cost the same today, and a year from now, or how much they cost a year ago. As new CPUs come out, new and bigger hard drives, the prices of the current ones go down, yet, Apple keeps selling them at the same price as when they first rolled out the model. That's keeping the price artifficailly up, and is basically overpricing.

[Icyculyr]

When you buy a Mac, what you get is a very nice looking machine (lots of money spent on aesthetics and packaging... nice for a car, but worthwhile for a computer?) with an awful user interface.

Out of curiosity when was the last time you used a Mac? Which version of the OS was it?

The two devices which you spend most of your time using to interact with the computer — the keyboard and mouse — are of dreadful design and construction. Never mind how many buttons the mouse has; how are you supposed to hold it in your hand? How are you supposed to type seriously on a keyboard which has almost no tactile feedback?

Are you referring to the Apple wireless keyboard (with flat keys) and the Magic mouse?

Ever since I used Apple's keyboard (with the flat keys), I'm not interested in anything else, I used to have this keyboard with an inch to half an inch thick keys, I can touch type on it quite fast too, ~90 WPM.

I didn't overly like the Mighty Mouse (although I used one), but I do like the Magic Mouse, it was a little new / uncomfortable for about a week, after that I've become used to it.

Even if the hardware was of equivalent price to an equivalently specified custom PC (which is not the case here) the usability level is inferior. Hence: overpriced.

By usability I assume you are referring to the UI (OS) and the keyboard & mouse?

The indicators for messages, emails, and missed phone calls are little numbers in red circles which annotate the appropriate app icons, but don't really convey any useful information. To actually find out what they represent I need to open the app in question — and if multiple indicators are showing, I need to navigate through each app in turn. (In the case of the Mail app I need to manually find where new emails are because it doesn't take me to the right inbox even if only one inbox has unread mail.)

Thats true, but most of them you learn quickly. If you've got a 5 over your phone app it means you've got 5 missed calls, on the messages app it means you've got 5 new texts, etc. In iOS 4 mail has a universal inbox now, I use it very often. I never liked checking my mail boxes individually.

The iPhone OS is also very slow. I don't know why it is so slow, because it doesn't seem to do very much, and when it does, it frequently crashes. Even with Wi-fi and Bluetooth disabled, the UI is less responsive than a basic 3G Nokia phone which I can buy for $50 from Target. For example, the Settings app appears to open straight away but it takes between 2-10 seconds for the screen to populate with controls. This is exaggerated when the battery is low, which wouldn't be a problem except that the battery life is totally crap.
On most occasions I have trouble unlocking the phone using the sliding control: it just bounces straight back from the right-hand side to the left. And far worse: approximately 1 out of 5 times when I receive a call while the phone is locked, the interface completely freezes so I am unable to take the call. This is unacceptable for what was a $1000 state-of-the-art smartphone.

Eek... was this with iOS 3 or 2? I'd say it's more the iPhone than the OS, the iPhone 3G only had a 400MHz CPU and 128MB's of RAM. I remember hearing that the iPhone 3G was really fast with iOS 2, but it got a bit sluggish with iOS 3.

Did you end up taking it back? Or trying to get them to replace it?

I used a 3G for a while until I got my 3GS, I had a similar experience, battery life wasn't great (in the latter days), I did find it quite sluggish, but not as bad as yours. Never had the UI lock up when a call comes in, that's pretty bad...

I could go on but these complaints represent what I think most people find with Apple products. They are sold not only on aesthetics but on usability, but in actual fact are very difficult and frustrating to use on a daily basis. They are often advocated to be easier to use for people with no prior experience with other platforms, but I have not seen any evidence to support this assertion. I have not seen any problems experienced by non-technical Windows users that could be solved by instead using a Mac.

I feel the opposite

Albeit, I do love Windows 7, it is by far the best version of Windows so far, I would much rather OSX as my main OS though. I much prefer the OSX UI, and I've become accustom to Expose and Spaces, Quick Look, and many other things.

I much prefer Windows 7 over 10.4 (Tiger) though.

Let me give you a definitive argument as to why Macs are overpriced.

Take for example the new iMacs that just came out. Check the price. Now, do you remember the prices of the old models? If no, look at the prices now. They are exactly the same. There's no price correction with Apple. Do you really think that the components in that iMac cost the same today, and a year from now, or how much they cost a year ago. As new CPUs come out, new and bigger hard drives, the prices of the current ones go down, yet, Apple keeps selling them at the same price as when they first rolled out the model. That's keeping the price artifficailly up, and is basically overpricing.

Sure, thats true. Apple's products are at their best value within five to six months, and their worst towards the beginning of a new update.

[baja_yu]

I didn't overly like the Mighty Mouse (although I used one), but I do like the Magic Mouse, it was a little new / uncomfortable for about a week, after that I've become used to it.

Well I could get used to sleeping on a bed of nails, but that doesn't make it good. I've got the wireless kbd and magic mouse on the iMac, and a Logitech wireless Desktop Wave Pro combo on the desktop, and they can't compare in terms of ergonomics and prolonged use. It's like comparing a chariot to a limousine.

[Icyculyr]

Well I could get used to sleeping on a bed of nails, but that doesn't make it good. I've got the wireless kbd and magic mouse on the iMac, and a Logitech wireless Desktop Wave Pro combo on the desktop, and they can't compare in terms of ergonomics and prolonged use. It's like comparing a chariot to a limousine.

Erm, I couldn't lol. I don't know whether using the Magic Mouse is bad for my hand or not, but I've noticed no difference. It's quite comfortable now that I'm used to it. I've never used much else really, other than my dads razor, but I prefer the MM.

Only downside from my perspective is not being able to click multiple buttons at the same time, I.E, start dragging a file and then activating Expose to find the window I'm dragging it into, or in FPS games where you hold right click to bring up the scope and left click to fire, also dual wielding weapons.

[penagate]

Out of curiosity when was the last time you used a Mac? Which version of the OS was it?

Either Tiger or Leopard. Whichever is older.

Are you referring to the Apple wireless keyboard (with flat keys) and the Magic mouse?

Yes, that flat keyboard, and the oval-shaped flattish mouse with the dinky little scroll wheel and no button — I'm not sure if it has a name. (Edit: It was the Mighty Mouse!) After five minutes of pushing it around and "clicking" it I felt like throwing it through the window. The keyboard was equally awkward to use.

At home I use a Logitech G5 mouse which fits my hand comfortably and has buttons placed more or less where my fingers are. That's sensible design. I'm not sure what the design philosophy is behind the Mac keyboards and mice, or if there even is one beyond "make it look avant-garde".

Thats true, but most of them you learn quickly. If you've got a 5 over your phone app it means you've got 5 missed calls, on the messages app it means you've got 5 new texts, etc.

Yes, I know how it works. It's very simple, which is why I said it feels like an interface designed by a software developer. Proper user interfaces take much more development effort than storing a few notification counters.

Here is an example of a better smartphone home screen:
http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs/...vertical_2.jpg
It's a screenshot from the HTC Touch Pro2 which I think runs Windows Mobile 6 with some sort of custom shell.
This screen has clearly had at least some thought put into its design. The clock is huge, which is valuable because people frequently tend to pull their phone out of their pocket to look at the time and the large font minimises the effort required to do this. The date is much smaller because it is less often needed. Below that you can see several upcoming appointments, which is very handy and encourages people to use the calendar function of the phone. Finally you have large buttons to open frequently-used functions, as with the bottom row of the iPhone home screen.

Eek... was this with iOS 3 or 2? [...] Did you end up taking it back? Or trying to get them to replace it?

3. I bought it in "as-new" condition from eBay. I think it had a 12-month warranty which would have expired now, plus it has water damage.

[FireXtol]

Man, I'd almost buy a mighty mouse if it wasn't shaped like a oblong hockey puck. That 360 degree ball is awesome. Would be perfect for Arkanoid/breakout/clones.

I wish other mice(more ergonomic) had that feature.

[baja_yu]

or if there even is one beyond "make it look avant-garde".

Nope. That's it. But the Magic mouse is even more avant-garde and even less ergonomic. That thing is flat as a pancake.

[penagate]

I've never used much else really, other than my dads razor

[Icyculyr]

Either Tiger or Leopard. Whichever is older.

That'd be Leopard then.

Yes, that flat keyboard, and the oval-shaped flattish mouse with the dinky little scroll wheel and no button — I'm not sure if it has a name. (Edit: It was the Mighty Mouse!) After five minutes of pushing it around and "clicking" it I felt like throwing it through the window. The keyboard was equally awkward to use.

At home I use a Logitech G5 mouse which fits my hand comfortably and has buttons placed more or less where my fingers are. That's sensible design. I'm not sure what the design philosophy is behind the Mac keyboards and mice, or if there even is one beyond "make it look avant-garde".

Yeah I thought so, I don't overly like the Mighty Mouse, I do the Magic Mouse though, not many multi-touch mouses around (afaik).
I used to have s Logitech mouse and keyboard with my PC, I don't remember what model it was.

Yes, I know how it works. It's very simple, which is why I said it feels like an interface designed by a software developer. Proper user interfaces take much more development effort than storing a few notification counters.

Here is an example of a better smartphone home screen:
http://www.tracyandmatt.co.uk/blogs/...vertical_2.jpg
It's a screenshot from the HTC Touch Pro2 which I think runs Windows Mobile 6 with some sort of custom shell.
This screen has clearly had at least some thought put into its design. The clock is huge, which is valuable because people frequently tend to pull their phone out of their pocket to look at the time and the large font minimises the effort required to do this. The date is much smaller because it is less often needed. Below that you can see several upcoming appointments, which is very handy and encourages people to use the calendar function of the phone. Finally you have large buttons to open frequently-used functions, as with the bottom row of the iPhone home screen.

I do like how the Calendars are shown, but personally wouldn't trade it for app view the iPhone uses. The time is small on the iPhone but it doesn't bother me, if I'm just checking that it's huge on the lock screen, I usually check the Calendar icon for the date.

I've seen some pretty awesome jail broken photos, the dock was similar to that Windows Mobile dock, there was an App folder on the screen to get to your apps, etc.

Check it out:


Down to the little Android logo for the battery meter lol

That's one of the themes in Winterboard, I've been considering jail breaking, but I might only after I get the iPhone 4.

3. I bought it in "as-new" condition from eBay. I think it had a 12-month warranty which would have expired now, plus it has water damage.

Oh ok, each new OS revision slows down the older phones a little bit more each time. iOS 4 has slowed it down even more. The 3GS is very snappy though, even with 4.

Man, I'd almost buy a mighty mouse if it wasn't shaped like a oblong hockey puck. That 360 degree ball is awesome. Would be perfect for Arkanoid/breakout/clones.

I wish other mice(more ergonomic) had that feature.

Magic Mouse is better than the Mighty Mouse if you can get used to it, it has no scroll ball. You just move your finger in the direction you want to scroll.

[penagate]

Oh ok, each new OS revision slows down the older phones a little bit more each time. iOS 4 has slowed it down even more.

That's daft. Newer firmware should be better, not worse.
A mobile device isn't a PC that can be upgraded part by part. It is what it is. It should be straightforward to improve iOS performance, given that there are only 4 or 5 different models it has to run on — in contrast to Android or Windows Mobile, which might be run on potentially anything.

If anything, the more you post, the more convinced I am that Apple products are overpriced garbage.

[Harsh Gupta]

...
If anything, the more you post, the more convinced I am that Apple products are overpriced garbage.

I am already. I was srsly planning to buy iPhone and/or maybe a macbook if not an iPhone.

Now I will never.

[Icyculyr]

That's daft. Newer firmware should be better, not worse.
A mobile device isn't a PC that can be upgraded part by part. It is what it is. It should be straightforward to improve iOS performance, given that there are only 4 or 5 different models it has to run on — in contrast to Android or Windows Mobile, which might be run on potentially anything.

If anything, the more you post, the more convinced I am that Apple products are overpriced garbage.

It is better, and a little slower. You can't expect an update that brings many new features to run faster or the same as it did on the prior OS update, the benefit of upgrading far outweighs the negative. And, when I say negative, I'm not referring to the issues you were having.

Take Android 3 for example, it requires a 1GHz CPU, my point being that big updates require more power. I'm not saying that going from iOS 2 to 3 is anywhere near that big of an updates, just trying to illustrate my point, that these type of updates can't offer new functionality and improve performance, a minor slow down shouldn't be unexpected, if you experience more than a minor slow down, then you should do something about it.

Did you experience these problems on your 3G immediately or over time?

[penagate]

It is better, and a little slower. You can't expect an update that brings many new features to run faster or the same as it did on the prior OS update

Why not? When I add functionality to my software, it runs (in general) at least as fast as it did before. The only exceptions are when the new functionality is particularly complex. In those cases, the existing features don't get slower.


Edit: In other words, my software is slow all of the time! Ha ha ha.

[kregg]

penagate's software uses bullet-time effects in execution.

[mendhak]

I once tested a UI that penagate gave me. I clicked on a button and my monitor exploded and turned into a giant punchbowl full of Mountain Dew and I bathed in it for 3 days it was the best button ever.

[baja_yu]

...and I bathed in it...

Your monitor is either very big, or you are very small. Which is it?

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Your monitor is either very big, or you are very small. Which is it?

Well he is a Frog even if it's of the mutant three-eyed variety, so i would say small !

[abhijit]

Edit: In other words, my software is slow all of the time! Ha ha ha.

I use the "fast=true" setting on operating systems that increases the speed of the software.

[Shaggy Hiker]

So what the heck IS an iMac refresh? It sounds like you are just saying that you are getting a new computer, is that right? How is that a refresh? Is this some kind of regional phrase?

[baja_yu]

They are bringing out 'new' models. Same price, new CPU and GPU. That's mostly it.

[Icyculyr]

Why not? When I add functionality to my software, it runs (in general) at least as fast as it did before. The only exceptions are when the new functionality is particularly complex. In those cases, the existing features don't get slower.


Edit: In other words, my software is slow all of the time! Ha ha ha.

That's true, but that's computer software right? Computers are very powerful, you can add code and new features, etc., and it all runs very well. But the iPhone 3G only has a 400MHz ARM8 CPU, and 128MB RAM, it can only handle so much. Again, it still shouldn't be unusable like in your situation, but having it be faster than the previous version would be quite difficult.